The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:16 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Facts mean things. You're talking about how facts are applied, and that's different. They supported my post quite well.

Juan_Bottom wrote:This is a huge part of the reason why Southern States actually get more money back from the Federal Government than they pay in. The South itself is a welfare state. If Conservative programs are so awesome at creating wealth and equality, then you have to ask yourself why the whole Conservative region is one big fail block.


It's because all the free-loading liberals go down there to get all that loot. That's what the facts support.

Sounds like someone who has never spent much time in the south.


The facts that Juan provided support my post quite well.
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby Juan_Bottom on Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:31 pm

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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby Juan_Bottom on Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:31 pm



Democrat, not that it matters. Just cool that he did it.
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:53 pm

notyou2 wrote:Just because many liberals favour social programs does not necessarily mean they are out for a free ride. The majority of them work and know that their taxes would help pay for those social programs. They are simply in favour of a more equal tax rate FOR ALL and they support many social programs. You guys keep stating that all liberal people want a free ride. Most liberals realize that if the US did not start wars, the poor and the hungry would be non-existent in America.


Of course that is true, well the first part anyways. If only a majority of them could also understand better that first we need to make the money before we can spend the money. And I have a serious problem with their definition of an "equal tax rate".

To me, an "equal tax rate" means everyone is treated equally...IE, the exact same rate. It's 100% fair and 100% equal.

No special groups or special penalties or special benefits ........no discrimination.

Only equality
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:57 am

Phatscotty wrote:
notyou2 wrote:Just because many liberals favour social programs does not necessarily mean they are out for a free ride. The majority of them work and know that their taxes would help pay for those social programs. They are simply in favour of a more equal tax rate FOR ALL and they support many social programs. You guys keep stating that all liberal people want a free ride. Most liberals realize that if the US did not start wars, the poor and the hungry would be non-existent in America.


Of course that is true, well the first part anyways. If only a majority of them could also understand better that first we need to make the money before we can spend the money. And I have a serious problem with their definition of an "equal tax rate".

To me, an "equal tax rate" means everyone is treated equally...IE, the exact same rate. It's 100% fair and 100% equal.

No special groups or special penalties or special benefits ........no discrimination.

Only equality


As soon as all INCOME is equal. Except, that would truly be disasterous. Equal taxation is disasterous for related reasons.
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:36 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:Image


Juan just keeps posting stuff that supports my post! Thanks Juan!
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:41 am

thegreekdog wrote:
Juan just keeps posting stuff that supports my post! Thanks Juan!

Sort of the way statistic "prove" that beds are the most dangerous places to be.. yeah.
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby Juan_Bottom on Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:48 pm

I only posted that picture to see if he would say what he said.

thegreekdog has fallen pretty far.
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:08 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:I only posted that picture to see if he would say what he said.

thegreekdog has fallen pretty far.


It is always more productive to lower myself to those I debate with. If you won't acknowledge that the data you keep posting does not support your point, then I will continue to make similarly ridiculous points with the data you post. For the fourth time, if 100% of the people in South Carolina voted and 100% of those voters voted Republican, your data would support your point. Until you provide that data, the data does not support your point.

If you continue to not understand that, then... well... poor people are moving to southern states... and that's my final answer.
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby Juan_Bottom on Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:40 pm

Truthfully I'm not debating with you. Pretty much all of the time I ignore you. The one time I didn't, in that discussion over Dem's and Repub's platforms, all your facts were out-of-date and then you quite and blamed it on me for not being in touch with 6 month old expired policies or whatever. I suspect that the real reasons you quit were that you don't know how to admit when you don't know what you're talking about to someone that you don't like, and that the discussion was huge. For me, I already knew it all and just had to get some links to double check my stats and stuff, but for someone who doesn't know a lot about politics it's hard to keep up to season to season. So why you talking at me if in the end you'll always quit the "debate" anyway? I just think you can't ignore me back. Why waste my time and yours?
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:24 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:Truthfully I'm not debating with you. Pretty much all of the time I ignore you. The one time I didn't, in that discussion over Dem's and Repub's platforms, all your facts were out-of-date and then you quite and blamed it on me for not being in touch with 6 month old expired policies or whatever. I suspect that the real reasons you quit were that you don't know how to admit when you don't know what you're talking about to someone that you don't like, and that the discussion was huge. For me, I already knew it all and just had to get some links to double check my stats and stuff, but for someone who doesn't know a lot about politics it's hard to keep up to season to season. So why you talking at me if in the end you'll always quit the "debate" anyway? I just think you can't ignore me back. Why waste my time and yours?


Yeah, "debate" wasn't the right word since you're providing virtually nothing in the realm of substance or critical analysis. And hey, I like you fine. You seem like a pretty funny guy. And it's cool that you've taken up pimpdave's mantle and have less of a tongue-in-cheek attitude, what with your awesome charts, graphs and colorful pictures. But yeah, I can't ignore you. I get some enjoyment out of using this forum to post stuff that seems important. These last few posts right here are a good example. So it's not really a waste of time for me. If you feel like I'm wasting your time, by all means ignore my posts. I won't be offended.
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:26 am

Come join the Cool Kids Club, TGD. It's where everyone is a winner when JB has explicitly chosen to ignore them.
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby Woodruff on Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:39 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Juan just keeps posting stuff that supports my post! Thanks Juan!

Sort of the way statistic "prove" that beds are the most dangerous places to be.. yeah.


I clearly need to start living more dangerously. Naps, ahoy!
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:42 am

Woodruff wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Juan just keeps posting stuff that supports my post! Thanks Juan!

Sort of the way statistic "prove" that beds are the most dangerous places to be.. yeah.


I clearly need to start living more dangerously. Naps, ahoy!

:lol:
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby Night Strike on Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:25 pm

PARSIPPANY, NJ (PIX11)—

Hungry Jersey Kids Boycott Obama's New School Lunch Rules Saying, "We're Hungry!"

Two Parsippany Hills High School students organized a brown bag protest over new federal school lunch rules giving them less food for more money.

"It used to be $2.25, now it's almost $4.00," lamented Ron Rothschild.

Chris Shargay, a freshman at Parsippany Hills High says his family has opted to bring lunch after the price hike, "It's just so much cheaper to get cold cuts on Sunday night and bring them for the week."

Senior Troy Fyfe agreed. "I'm just gonna bring brown paper bag lunches. It's too much."

Students proudly presented empty lunch boxes as school let out, all part of the protest by some 1,200 kids over the new "Healthy Hunger Free Kids Act," signed by President Obama , which mandates smaller portion sizes with a bigger price tag attached to help drive down obesity.

Brandon Faris, a senior said their point was simple. "We want the price of the lunch to go down if the portion is going to go down."

Faris and Nick Caccavale, the organizers behind the brown bag it protest aren't alone. A parody video on YouTube "We are Hungry", with nearly 700,000 hits, shows how kids say they're now calorie deprived and not getting enough food to fuel their demanding days.

But a minority of students decried the move, saying it only hurts those who depend upon serving kids to make a living.

"I don't think these lunch ladies should lose their jobs. One of them came up to us and said we might lose our jobs if this continues," pointe Dannica Burchartz, a senior who was one of only a handful of students to buy her lunch today.

But the PTSA president quickly pointed out the rules are set by the Federal Government, and failure to follow them could mean students who get federally funded lunch might lose their subsidy.

Mom Sandy Giercyzk explained how the district here has its hands tied when it comes to the way they feed the students, "We are federally mandated on the size of the portion and what we can charge. Parsippany is actually under the amount of what we are allowed to charge and we are required every year to raise our price by federal mandate."

And what about the food service company that supplies Parsippany Hills and some 80 other schools with their lunch fixings? Are they making a fatter profit by complying be federal rules to help slim down the nation's school kids? Not at all.

"The school district is actually seeing a drop in participation in response to the smaller portions. And they are meant to be self-sustaining, in that whatever money is left over after paying for the food goes back into funding other programs within the school district," explained Mark Vidovich, the President of the Pomptonian Food Service Group.

All the leftover food was donated to a local charity.

http://www.wpix.com/news/wpix-high-school-students-strike-over-expensive-smaller-lunches-20120928,0,5590826.story
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:29 pm

Another hit piece without any skepticism. Where are the experts? It's just kids and their mom talking.
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby Night Strike on Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:31 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:Another hit piece without any skepticism. Where are the experts? It's just kids and their mom talking.


Since when do the "experts" get to decide my personal freedoms?
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:32 pm

Then you can't say those kids are starving.
So lets ignore that.

Why can't you bring your own food to your high school?
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby Night Strike on Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:33 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:Then you can't say those kids are starving.
So lets ignore that.

Why can't you bring your own food to your high school?


These kids did precisely that, and good for them. The school was not providing them with an adequate service, so they boycotted that service and found an alternative.
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:37 pm

Ok then personal freedom was never ever endangered anyway. Bazinga.
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby Woodruff on Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:57 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Another hit piece without any skepticism. Where are the experts? It's just kids and their mom talking.


Since when do the "experts" get to decide my personal freedoms?


It's funny how often you're in favor of the government dictating personal freedoms that you like, and how often you're not in favor of the government dictating personal freedoms you don't like.
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby Woodruff on Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:58 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Then you can't say those kids are starving.
So lets ignore that.

Why can't you bring your own food to your high school?


These kids did precisely that, and good for them. The school was not providing them with an adequate service, so they boycotted that service and found an alternative.


So what's the problem? I'm asking this in a completely serious manner. I see no problem here.
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby patches70 on Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:01 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:Ok then personal freedom was never ever endangered anyway. Bazinga.



But don't you see the attempted coercion? The attempt to make the case that by "exercising personal freedom" is a bad thing?




But a minority of students decried the move, saying it only hurts those who depend upon serving kids to make a living.

"I don't think these lunch ladies should lose their jobs. One of them came up to us and said we might lose our jobs if this continues,"


And then the subtle threats?

failure to follow them could mean students who get federally funded lunch might lose their subsidy.

And then there is the manipulated price that has nothing to do with any normal rules of economics-

we are required every year to raise our price by federal mandate."


So, by students not "getting with the program" and exercising free choice by bringing their own lunches they are putting people's jobs at risk and threatening the "charity" status of The State being able to provide free lunches to low income families. It seems one is a heel to exercise their freedom.

It should not be that way.

The automatic raising of the prices by federal mandate should also be troublesome. It's one thing if it's because of economic conditions, it's quite another for the government to step and and raise the prices by fiat while actually lowering the amount of product one gets as those prices continue to rise (artificially).

This whole thing is yet another example of how government comes in to "fix" one supposed problem and creates more problems. Trade offs. That's what it's about, but when these types of policies are enacted no one ever talks about or considers the trade offs and consequences of said policies.
When students and families take matters into their own hands and attempt to opt out of the policy, in come the sycophants trying to shame, threaten and coerce everyone to tow the line.

It's sickening.
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby Night Strike on Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:05 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Then you can't say those kids are starving.
So lets ignore that.

Why can't you bring your own food to your high school?


These kids did precisely that, and good for them. The school was not providing them with an adequate service, so they boycotted that service and found an alternative.


So what's the problem? I'm asking this in a completely serious manner. I see no problem here.


That kids chose to stand against the nanny-state control is a good thing. The fact that the federal government thinks they need to dictate the number of calories kids get to eat from school lunches is the problem. It's absolute control by the government that simply harms people.

Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Another hit piece without any skepticism. Where are the experts? It's just kids and their mom talking.


Since when do the "experts" get to decide my personal freedoms?


It's funny how often you're in favor of the government dictating personal freedoms that you like, and how often you're not in favor of the government dictating personal freedoms you don't like.


Examples?
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Re: The Progressive Movement - A political history lesson

Postby Woodruff on Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:19 pm

patches70 wrote:"I don't think these lunch ladies should lose their jobs. One of them came up to us and said we might lose our jobs if this continues,"[/i]


I certainly agree that the lunch ladies (or others employed by the school) should not be making these sorts of statements.

And then the subtle threats?

patches70 wrote: failure to follow them could mean students who get federally funded lunch might lose their subsidy.


I don't really understand this one. The kids getting free lunches are boycotting the free lunches? I can understand why they may be upset at the smaller portions, but if their family is actually so poor that they've qualified for free lunches, the odds are at least decent that this is STILL their best meal of the day.

patches70 wrote:And then there is the manipulated price that has nothing to do with any normal rules of economics-
we are required every year to raise our price by federal mandate."


Yeah, I'm with you on that...makes no sense at all. For what it's worth, I'm not sure that's true. In the four years I've been at my current high school, the prices have no changed (I frequently eat with cadets).

patches70 wrote:So, by students not "getting with the program" and exercising free choice by bringing their own lunches they are putting people's jobs at risk and threatening the "charity" status of The State being able to provide free lunches to low income families. It seems one is a heel to exercise their freedom.
It should not be that way.


I agree completely with you. By the same token, and this does not excuse some of the things that were stated, expressing your rights is many times not a pleasant experience.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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