THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:51 am

Nobunaga wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Scotty thinks America has been in decline since Woodrow Wilson a century ago:

Phatscotty wrote:I know, I have failed to find solid evidence of that actual statement. However, if you look at progressive ideals and Communists ideals, they are 2 peas in a pod, and the statement is based on that. The substance of the ideals is far more important than an official name change.

I should rephrase: Communists and Progressives share the same ideology. As related to BVP, it's easy to call it silly that Communists are teaching in our schools. But everyone knows the Progressives and the Liberals DOMINATE academia, especially at the union level.

Been going on since Woodrow Wilson started shipping in European Professors, and it only took a generation to get to the great depression.


Link


... And he would be right in that assessment.

...


So it would not be unfair to accuse Phatscotty or NS of wanting to put the US back 100 years?

I.e, before Woodrow Wilson?


... Perhaps it would be fair to say that, if you were speaking of levels of state sovereignty, over federal control. Is what you are referring to? If not, then what are you referring to?

...


I already told him, income taxes. But of course, that doesn't matter and it will be onto the next attack.

All Americans know we are losing more and more Freedoms as everyday goes by, regardless of who is in power. And they try to make it seem like a bad thing that we want our Freedoms back. Oh, but they can't accept that it could possibly be about returning to Constitutional principles, that's just a lie!!! :lol:

He is so racist, he can see nothing else.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:54 am

Night Strike wrote:
Bones2484 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:one party has cleaned their own house and got rid of all those Bush Republicans and is already half way through reconstruction.


I really hope you aren't referring to the party who has gone so far to the Christian right that they want to set this country back socially 100 years?


Republicans haven't gone to the Christian right. If anything, it's moved much closer to the libertarian/constitutional right. And there's no platform to "set this country back socially 100 years".


The fact that Bones thinks the Tea Party is a social movement shows a lot. It also shows the failure of whatever media outlet he gets his info from.

Still waiting for just a couple examples of what you meant by it, and by all means, please cherry pick them.

If you can't find any examples, or even just verbally state a few yourself, you could just take the statement back.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby Woodruff on Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:17 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Scotty thinks America has been in decline since Woodrow Wilson a century ago:

Phatscotty wrote:I know, I have failed to find solid evidence of that actual statement. However, if you look at progressive ideals and Communists ideals, they are 2 peas in a pod, and the statement is based on that. The substance of the ideals is far more important than an official name change.

I should rephrase: Communists and Progressives share the same ideology. As related to BVP, it's easy to call it silly that Communists are teaching in our schools. But everyone knows the Progressives and the Liberals DOMINATE academia, especially at the union level.

Been going on since Woodrow Wilson started shipping in European Professors, and it only took a generation to get to the great depression.


Link


... And he would be right in that assessment.

...


So it would not be unfair to accuse Phatscotty or NS of wanting to put the US back 100 years?

I.e, before Woodrow Wilson?


... Perhaps it would be fair to say that, if you were speaking of levels of state sovereignty, over federal control. Is what you are referring to? If not, then what are you referring to?

...


I already told him, income taxes. But of course, that doesn't matter and it will be onto the next attack.

All Americans know we are losing more and more Freedoms as everyday goes by, regardless of who is in power. And they try to make it seem like a bad thing that we want our Freedoms back. Oh, but they can't accept that it could possibly be about returning to Constitutional principles, that's just a lie!!! :lol:


And yet you're actively campaigning and voting for the status quo.

Phatscotty wrote:He is so racist, he can see nothing else.


Ironic.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby Woodruff on Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:23 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Bones2484 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:one party has cleaned their own house and got rid of all those Bush Republicans and is already half way through reconstruction.


I really hope you aren't referring to the party who has gone so far to the Christian right that they want to set this country back socially 100 years?


Republicans haven't gone to the Christian right. If anything, it's moved much closer to the libertarian/constitutional right. And there's no platform to "set this country back socially 100 years".


The fact that Bones thinks the Tea Party is a social movement shows a lot.


http://www.thedailydolt.com/2012/10/05/tea-party-rep-paul-broun-evolution-and-big-bang-are-lies-straight-from-the-pit-of-hell-why-yes-he-serves-on-the-house-science-committee-with-todd-akin/
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby stahrgazer on Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:02 pm

ad10r3tr0 wrote:I personally, don't see how anyone could vote for Democrats. Do you like money? 99.9% of you will say yes. Then why would you vote for someone who wants to raise taxes and take EVEN MORE money from you when they already take so much to begin with?

I support people who work to EARN money and things to be actually bought and paid for...not handed out to lazy losers who sit at home all day and collect a check from Obama that comes out of my pocket.

What a joke!


No, here's the jokes:
Most Republicans won't consider retired citizens some of those "lazy losers who sit at home all day and collect a check," when in fact, they are. Yes, they paid into Social Security, enough that would last 5-8 years, the lifespan expectancy 'back then.' And then went on to live 30-40 years. The Ryan (now called Romney) "fix" is to let those who bankrupted social security and medicare, continue to collect, but end it just AFTER the last baby boomer retires.

Most of this economic crash began just before Bush's second term... the ball was rolling downhill then, and Bush did nothing; if he'd done something "in time" it may not cost what it's costing now. There's an old adage about a stitch in time saves nine that can apply here, just substitute sewing thread for dollars.

Most physicians agree that many of the most costly illnesses would be less costly if caught earlier, and that's what Obama's initial plan wanted to help with, to catch things earlier so they cost less in the long run.
When companies reduce or eliminate health benefits because they CAN, they also reduce or eliminate the average person's ability to get into Group healthcare that costs less than every individual family in American purchasing it. Obama initiated something that addresses that... it got warped by Republicans but there are still aspects of the Affordable Care Act that DO make health care insurance more affordable to those who had no health care insurance. Basically, Obama's plan acknowledges that we can't count on Big Business.

"Big business" that Republicans want to protect at all costs, have absolutely zero patriotism.

If they did, they wouldn't take our jobs overseas. If they hadn't done that, more people would have jobs and not be 'lazy losers' sitting at home. Also, if "big business" wants to avoid the higher income taxes that is just fair at a time when they're about the only ones who have any money to afford a little more, then they could hire some people here, and write off the expense of employing people, lowering their profit which in turn reduces their taxes.

Of course, that does not address those who are fraudulent about needing assistance, but cutting it all out because some few commit fraud - the Republican plan - isn't right either.

Obama's plan was to take us back to Reagan tax rates, which worked, rather than Bush tax rates, which led us into economic decline. And if you want to scream at that because it will cost "the rich" more money, take a better look at Romney's plans; he won't directly increase the tax rate, he'll just reduce or eliminate the deductions for your house, your medical care, your childcare expenses... all those things that help the little guy, including the small business owner, stay just a little above drowning.

America was NOT founded to help the rich guy get richer while the poor guy dies under the weight of no home, no food, and no one caring. The opposite is true, it was founded to escape the weight of Lords owning All. Present-day Republican plans want to undo over 200 years of history, and its working because anything less than "rich get to keep it all," and the scream of "socialism" has people rallying to their cause... like the rats that followed the Pied Piper.

The Republican party today wants to insist that women who happen to get pregnant (maybe they didn't have health care to get a birth control script, hmm?) should under almost every circumstance, have the child. Then the Republican party today does not want to help ensure the child is fed, clothed, housed, or educated properly.

Ike, Abe, and even Ronald are turning over in their graves at what is called "Republican" today, because instead of strengthening the Republic, this party is doing its best to tear us apart.

~
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby Nobunaga on Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:46 am

... I grow weary of this "shipping jobs overseas" mantra.

... What does the phrase mean, exactly? ... Democrats relate it to...

1. Comapnies / factories closing operations or cutting services, then restarting those factories & services in another country.

.... This is uncommon, but not unheard of. It is much more common to see US businesses shipping jobs out of state - to other states where the tax climate is more friendly.


2. The expansion of business overseas.

... So if a company has millions of customers in Asia, building a plant in Asia to better meet that demand would still be labelled as "shipping jobs overseas". Indeed it is so labelled and decried by the left.

... Or if a business expands production, building articles overseas for eventual sale in the United States, this is also a sin, apparently.


... But expansion is just that, adding jobs, not subtracting jobs from anywhere.

... Granted, it would be great if all expansion could be done in the US, but with our criminal corporate tax rates (up to 39% Federal, 12% State), does that make any sense to anybody?

... Add to that the very high cost of labor (though lower than many other western nations)... and the picture should be pretty clear.

... And here comes a carbon tax... increased responsibility for employee insurance (gotta cover all those 26 year old kids now)... what company with any interest whatsoever in making money would expand in this country?

...
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby stahrgazer on Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:30 pm

Nobunaga wrote:... I grow weary of this "shipping jobs overseas" mantra.

... What does the phrase mean, exactly? ... Democrats relate it to...

1. Comapnies / factories closing operations or cutting services, then restarting those factories & services in another country.

.... This is uncommon, but not unheard of. It is much more common to see US businesses shipping jobs out of state - to other states where the tax climate is more friendly.

...


It's a lot more common than you realize.

Here's a few examples you can maybe relate to.

Americans are formidable purchasers of athletic shoes like Nike and Reebok, but the only still-made-in-USA athletic shoe is New Balance.

Companies overseas pay their workers less to produce their shoes, yet the price of New Balance is comparable to what those overseas-manufactured products are fetching. And not just for the shoes sold offshore. Last year, the owner of New Balance commented that they might have to break down and move offshore soon, too, since the Nikes and Reeboks manufacturing might move to Vietnam, a reasonably "virgin" workforce who will therefore work for less than (Inda, Pakistan, used to be Mexico and before that it was - you guess it! USA!) will work for.

Americans purchase a lot of automobiles, and some might say, we invented the things, including the "drive train" and yet, you can't find a "drive train" manufactured in the USA anymore; they're made overseas and shipped in, and NOT just for the overseas-brand vehicles. And not just for the Fords, Chevies, and Dodges that will be sold offshore.

Similarly, computer components are marketed by American companies, but darn few - if any, anymore - are made with all-American-made components. Televisions, same-same. Not just for the computers/tv's that will be sold offshore.

Jet engines, ditto, except for those which have governmental restrictions due to security reasons (such as the F119/Raptor, which had a contractual requirement that all parts be made and assembled in the USA). But many of the intricate commercial engine parts were offshored. And not just for the jets that will be sold offshore.

Phonebanks... another example of thousands and thousands of jobs that left the USA to go to other countries, and not just to make calls within those other countries. Nope, next call you or your family gets could very well come from India rather than Indiana.

And when the companies are done milking those people (when the people start asking for a few more wages or benefits) the companies then move on to another country whose labor force didn't yet wise up.

I grow weary of those who don't get that it's things like this - not Obama - that are tearing our economy, and as a result, our country, down. I grow weary of those who don't see that this does take away jobs from Americans.

Last edited by stahrgazer on Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby Woodruff on Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:36 pm

stahrgazer wrote:Americans are formidable purchasers of athletic shoes like Nike and Reebok, but the only still-made-in-USA athletic shoe is New Balance.
Companies overseas pay their workers less to produce their shoes, yet the price of New Balance is comparable to what those overseas-manufactured products are fetching. And not just for the shoes sold offshore.


This right here...its this sort of thing that pisses me off. Moving overseas purely as a profit-driven motive at the expense of our nation's workers. And so many people defend the practice.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby stahrgazer on Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:40 pm

Woodruff wrote:This right here...its this sort of thing that pisses me off. Moving overseas purely as a profit-driven motive at the expense of our nation's workers. And so many people defend the practice.


Like Nobunga is trying to do, you mean?

I also grow weary of those who bitch and moan and call folks (like me, who lost my job at Pratt because of so much company offshoring while Bush was in office turning blind eyes or helping the offshoring by eliminating regulations) lazy because we can't find decent work anymore so are asking for a little help for a while, and maybe a little while longer than we'd like, until some rich dude decides he'll hire just one more person and that person is one of those "lazies" or even me!

Two months ago I read where UTC (Pratt) is making a big aerospace investment in Morocco. Now I know where my and my 6 thousand friends' jobs went.

And I'll repeat: we lost our jobs during Bush's regime, long before the 'crash' and several years before Obama took office.

Edit: Tangential point. You realize, China is now in the Aerospace market, jets and rockets? Wonder why? It's like the music and video cd's... companies made deals to sell over there, that included letting the Chinese in on how we make things, and they took it and ran with it, not at all bothered that they weren't supposed to steal our patents. But when those contracts hit, whewwwie the stockholders were so happy for a month. All good, Nobunga, because the company made a profit back then, huh?

And no matter that the "lazy" Americans now can't find work, huh?
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:45 pm

Woodruff wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:Americans are formidable purchasers of athletic shoes like Nike and Reebok, but the only still-made-in-USA athletic shoe is New Balance.
Companies overseas pay their workers less to produce their shoes, yet the price of New Balance is comparable to what those overseas-manufactured products are fetching. And not just for the shoes sold offshore.


This right here...its this sort of thing that pisses me off. Moving overseas purely as a profit-driven motive at the expense of our nation's workers. And so many people defend the practice.


And what of the poorer people in foreign nations?
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby Nobunaga on Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:14 pm

... My company is opening a new factory in Mexico to supply parts for the Honda Fit and various GM vehicles. This is an expansion.

... I wonder if this would be considered "shipping jobs overseas"?

...
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby Symmetry on Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:00 pm

Nobunaga wrote:... My company is opening a new factory in Mexico to supply parts for the Honda Fit and various GM vehicles. This is an expansion.

... I wonder if this would be considered "shipping jobs overseas"?

...


Considering a universal healthcare system is considered European even while in place in Canada, I doubt the right has a good idea of what their rhetoric actually means anymore beyond what works when repeatedly thrown as an accusation at anyone not of their disposition.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby Night Strike on Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:30 pm

stahrgazer wrote:Obama's plan was to take us back to Reagan tax rates, which worked, rather than Bush tax rates, which led us into economic decline. And if you want to scream at that because it will cost "the rich" more money, take a better look at Romney's plans; he won't directly increase the tax rate, he'll just reduce or eliminate the deductions for your house, your medical care, your childcare expenses... all those things that help the little guy, including the small business owner, stay just a little above drowning.


For claiming to be a conservative, you sure do parrot liberalism most of the time. Reagan's tax rates worked because it wasn't the tax rate: it was the massive tax CUT that provided those rates. Raising the rates from today's rate to the 1980s rate won't do anything to spur economic growth. And the idea that we had economic decline after Bush's tax cuts is a complete falsehood that ignored everything that happened prior to the summer of 2008. We had over 4 years of low unemployment and continually-expanding revenues to the federal government after the two phases of tax cuts were passed. Furthermore, the collapse in 2008 had absolutely nothing to do with tax rates. It was a banking and housing bubble bursting open, neither of which were tied to tax rates. Obama's answer was to print tons of money to use as governmental stimulus, which has given us the past 3.5 years of economic stagflation.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby Symmetry on Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:38 pm

Night Strike wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:Obama's plan was to take us back to Reagan tax rates, which worked, rather than Bush tax rates, which led us into economic decline. And if you want to scream at that because it will cost "the rich" more money, take a better look at Romney's plans; he won't directly increase the tax rate, he'll just reduce or eliminate the deductions for your house, your medical care, your childcare expenses... all those things that help the little guy, including the small business owner, stay just a little above drowning.


For claiming to be a conservative, you sure do parrot liberalism most of the time. Reagan's tax rates worked because it wasn't the tax rate: it was the massive tax CUT that provided those rates. Raising the rates from today's rate to the 1980s rate won't do anything to spur economic growth. And the idea that we had economic decline after Bush's tax cuts is a complete falsehood that ignored everything that happened prior to the summer of 2008. We had over 4 years of low unemployment and continually-expanding revenues to the federal government after the two phases of tax cuts were passed. Furthermore, the collapse in 2008 had absolutely nothing to do with tax rates. It was a banking and housing bubble bursting open, neither of which were tied to tax rates. Obama's answer was to print tons of money to use as governmental stimulus, which has given us the past 3.5 years of economic stagflation.


Sources?
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby Night Strike on Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:44 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:Obama's plan was to take us back to Reagan tax rates, which worked, rather than Bush tax rates, which led us into economic decline. And if you want to scream at that because it will cost "the rich" more money, take a better look at Romney's plans; he won't directly increase the tax rate, he'll just reduce or eliminate the deductions for your house, your medical care, your childcare expenses... all those things that help the little guy, including the small business owner, stay just a little above drowning.


For claiming to be a conservative, you sure do parrot liberalism most of the time. Reagan's tax rates worked because it wasn't the tax rate: it was the massive tax CUT that provided those rates. Raising the rates from today's rate to the 1980s rate won't do anything to spur economic growth. And the idea that we had economic decline after Bush's tax cuts is a complete falsehood that ignored everything that happened prior to the summer of 2008. We had over 4 years of low unemployment and continually-expanding revenues to the federal government after the two phases of tax cuts were passed. Furthermore, the collapse in 2008 had absolutely nothing to do with tax rates. It was a banking and housing bubble bursting open, neither of which were tied to tax rates. Obama's answer was to print tons of money to use as governmental stimulus, which has given us the past 3.5 years of economic stagflation.


Sources?


The tax rates for the Reagan years and the current tax rates are both matters of public record. The unemployment numbers and the governmental revenues during the Bush presidency are also public records. Go look them up.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby Symmetry on Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:03 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:Obama's plan was to take us back to Reagan tax rates, which worked, rather than Bush tax rates, which led us into economic decline. And if you want to scream at that because it will cost "the rich" more money, take a better look at Romney's plans; he won't directly increase the tax rate, he'll just reduce or eliminate the deductions for your house, your medical care, your childcare expenses... all those things that help the little guy, including the small business owner, stay just a little above drowning.


For claiming to be a conservative, you sure do parrot liberalism most of the time. Reagan's tax rates worked because it wasn't the tax rate: it was the massive tax CUT that provided those rates. Raising the rates from today's rate to the 1980s rate won't do anything to spur economic growth. And the idea that we had economic decline after Bush's tax cuts is a complete falsehood that ignored everything that happened prior to the summer of 2008. We had over 4 years of low unemployment and continually-expanding revenues to the federal government after the two phases of tax cuts were passed. Furthermore, the collapse in 2008 had absolutely nothing to do with tax rates. It was a banking and housing bubble bursting open, neither of which were tied to tax rates. Obama's answer was to print tons of money to use as governmental stimulus, which has given us the past 3.5 years of economic stagflation.


Sources?


The tax rates for the Reagan years and the current tax rates are both matters of public record. The unemployment numbers and the governmental revenues during the Bush presidency are also public records. Go look them up.


Sweetie, post them if they're part of your point. I know your style is to come in and say something obnoxious without providing evidence, and then sod off, but this is getting silly.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby stahrgazer on Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:46 am

Night Strike wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:Obama's plan was to take us back to Reagan tax rates, which worked, rather than Bush tax rates, which led us into economic decline. And if you want to scream at that because it will cost "the rich" more money, take a better look at Romney's plans; he won't directly increase the tax rate, he'll just reduce or eliminate the deductions for your house, your medical care, your childcare expenses... all those things that help the little guy, including the small business owner, stay just a little above drowning.


For claiming to be a conservative, you sure do parrot liberalism most of the time. Reagan's tax rates worked because it wasn't the tax rate: it was the massive tax CUT that provided those rates. Raising the rates from today's rate to the 1980s rate won't do anything to spur economic growth. And the idea that we had economic decline after Bush's tax cuts is a complete falsehood that ignored everything that happened prior to the summer of 2008. We had over 4 years of low unemployment and continually-expanding revenues to the federal government after the two phases of tax cuts were passed. Furthermore, the collapse in 2008 had absolutely nothing to do with tax rates. It was a banking and housing bubble bursting open, neither of which were tied to tax rates. Obama's answer was to print tons of money to use as governmental stimulus, which has given us the past 3.5 years of economic stagflation.


So basically your stance is, no matter how low the taxes go on those who can afford it, the businesses won't hire Americans unless they get yet ANOTHER tax reduction.

My "conservatism" ends where logic begins, Night Strike. I won't play blind man's bluff like so many "Republicans" today do, just because I detest some liberal ideas; not when "my party" is being even more despicable than my worst liberal nightmares.

The banking bubble was allowed to burst because BUSH removed some regulations, and removed some oversight that forced appropriate ethics and legalities. The repackaging of debt obligations was legal, but someone was still supposed to hold back sufficient funds to back those obligations, and regulations and overseers had been assigned to ensure that occured. When BUSH removed those watchdogs, companies that were doing the repackaging and selling Collateralized Debt Obligations, started to conveniently forget to hold back funds to cover the debts. Furthermore, they increased the risks by packaging many less secure loans with a few more secure loans, and calling them the lesser risk rather than admitting these packages had more risk than they were admitting.

As you said to someone else, these facts are all out on the web, look them up.

Then, when folks who owed the monies lost their jobs under Bush because plants closed in America to "expand" to various overseas locations (which Bush did nothing about and in fact, even backed legislation that made those moves more profitable for those once-American companies) the shady stack of cards BUSH allowed to build, collapsed.

Additionally, printing a bunch of money and making a stimulus was Bush's idea, only where he put the money didn't stimulate at all. So, Obama gets blamed for printing a little more money for a second stimulus that worked a little but not quite enough - or not quite enough yet.

Again, facts, look them up, Night Strike, rather than parrot Rush Limbaugh's distortions of the truth.

Finally, check your economics. It takes time for a financial cause to achieve effect; there's years of lag - it used to be 8-10 years, although that's lessened a little. Basically, Bush's policies in 2004 and 2005 caused what occurred in 2008 and 2009, and what Obama did in 2008 are finally starting to achieve some results in 2012.

Obama kept us from being totally snowed under the avalanche Bush's policies caused; it's not his fault that time takes time, and reverting back to the very policies that caused the avalanche would finalize our country's economic ruin.

Also remember: when Reagan cut the tax rates, they were 70%. Then he realized he cut them too low for our nation's wellbeing, and had to adjust and raise them back up again.

Then Bush came along and cut them back down, despite Ronald had already realized, "too much cut is not a good thing for our nation after all."

So. Obama wanting to put the rates back to Reagan rates DOES make sense.

If your fingernails are too long, sure, you should trim them; but if you cut them to the quick, you risk infection and loss of your fingernail. Similarly, Bush cut the taxes too low and left them there, causing an infection and risking loss of our nation as a strong financial entity.

BigBallinStalin wrote:And what of the poorer people in foreign nations?


Appropriate EXPANSION is one thing. Moving American jobs overseas to turn around and sell the now-foreign products back in America at prices Americans could afford when Americans were making the products, is a problem.

And if you do some more of your homework, you'd find that damned few of those poorer people in foreign nations get elevated living standards because they're being paid extremely low wages, commensurate to or only very slightly above their typical living standards. That's what makes it so "profitable" for American companies to move, you see. They get the best of all worlds, pay peanuts to the laborers but still sell high over in the U.S. for the very few who can still afford their product.

And then what happened is, companies realized less people in America could afford their product, so they laid off more workers, causing even less people to be able to afford their product, causing more layoffs.

Obama has done well trying to stop the avalanche, with zero help from Congress who continue to take their vaca's, get their salaries, get their ultra premium healthcare and can still rely on tremendous pensions PLUS Social Security. And, of course, the Ryan/Romney Social Security and Medicare plans don't dare to touch most of the Congressmen and Senators who are primarily above the golden age of 55 they keep spouting - as are almost all the baby boomers who lived beyond the planned-for time which caused THAT little problem.

I wish. I really wish. That I could still espouse Republican ideas. But, as a rational and critical thinking person, I cannot. They, the Republicans, broke some things, and their idea to "fix" it is to repeat the exact same actions that broke the things in the first place, NONE of which will help poorer Americans get back to work.

We can all agree that there are "some" Americans who thrive on living off the system when they don't have to. It's fraud, and should be addressed appropriately. But lumping everyone who's now unemployed because of faulty Republican actions into that same category is wrong. Doing more of what really caused the problem, is wrong. Blaming Obama because his fix isn't working FAST enough, is wrong.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby notyou2 on Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:11 am

Well stated Stahr.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:20 am

stahrgazer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:And what of the poorer people in foreign nations?


Appropriate EXPANSION is one thing. Moving American jobs overseas to turn around and sell the now-foreign products back in America at prices Americans could afford when Americans were making the products, is a problem.


False. The prices are different, thus the gains of trade will differ. You shouldn't ignore that by saying "at prices Americans could afford."


stahrgazer wrote:And if you do some more of your homework, you'd find that damned few of those poorer people in foreign nations get elevated living standards because they're being paid extremely low wages, commensurate to or only very slightly above their typical living standards. That's what makes it so "profitable" for American companies to move, you see. They get the best of all worlds, pay peanuts to the laborers but still sell high over in the U.S. for the very few who can still afford their product.


Their wages in manufacturing are higher than subsistence agriculture--it doesn't make sense to call wage X "extremely low" without using a meaningful benchmark. The middle class of many developing countries is rising, and the poorest of the poor are becoming less and less over the decades. This is mainly due to international trade (and less restrictions trade), which is something you're obviously against.


stahrgazer wrote:And then what happened is, companies realized less people in America could afford their product, so they laid off more workers, causing even less people to be able to afford their product, causing more layoffs.


Is this your business cycle theory?


stahrgazer wrote:Obama has done well trying to stop the avalanche, with zero help from Congress who continue to take their vaca's, get their salaries, get their ultra premium healthcare and can still rely on tremendous pensions PLUS Social Security. And, of course, the Ryan/Romney Social Security and Medicare plans don't dare to touch most of the Congressmen and Senators who are primarily above the golden age of 55 they keep spouting - as are almost all the baby boomers who lived beyond the planned-for time which caused THAT little problem.

I wish. I really wish. That I could still espouse Republican ideas. But, as a rational and critical thinking person, I cannot. They, the Republicans, broke some things, and their idea to "fix" it is to repeat the exact same actions that broke the things in the first place, NONE of which will help poorer Americans get back to work.

We can all agree that there are "some" Americans who thrive on living off the system when they don't have to. It's fraud, and should be addressed appropriately. But lumping everyone who's now unemployed because of faulty Republican actions into that same category is wrong. Doing more of what really caused the problem, is wrong. Blaming Obama because his fix isn't working FAST enough, is wrong.


This is irrelevant.

We were discussing foreign labor and international trade; not "president X did A, B, and C, even though he's not really responsible for A, B, and C."
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby Night Strike on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:04 pm

The government forced banks to write 1 sub-prime loan for every 9 good loans instead of what had previously been 1 sub-prime loan for every 99 good loans. Bush warned Congress in 2005 that Fannie Mae and other secondary loan markets had to be reformed to avoid a collapse, but Barney Frank and his cohorts refused to listen and ignored the problem. It has been government involvement in the system that caused all of this mess, not deregulation.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby stahrgazer on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:14 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:And what of the poorer people in foreign nations?


Appropriate EXPANSION is one thing. Moving American jobs overseas to turn around and sell the now-foreign products back in America at prices Americans could afford when Americans were making the products, is a problem.


False. The prices are different, thus the gains of trade will differ. You shouldn't ignore that by saying "at prices Americans could afford."


Stalin, explain how Nike-made-overseas pricing being just about the same as made-in-American New Balance pricing, and tell me again the prices are different.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby stahrgazer on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:22 pm

Night Strike wrote:The government forced banks to write 1 sub-prime loan for every 9 good loans instead of what had previously been 1 sub-prime loan for every 99 good loans. Bush warned Congress in 2005 that Fannie Mae and other secondary loan markets had to be reformed to avoid a collapse, but Barney Frank and his cohorts refused to listen and ignored the problem. It has been government involvement in the system that caused all of this mess, not deregulation.


No. Unethical business tactics that were allowed to flourish, is what caused this. The forced loans had still required that the banks and lenders keep back enough funds to cover any losses. Watchdogs (cats) were in place to ensure that happened.

Bush took away the watchdogs (cats). "When the cat's away the mice will play," works well here. Well, Bush took away the cats and the big-business wealthy mice did play.

and the neo-Republican answer to this is to open the gates wider to their play, let them hoard even more of their cheese to play with, and take away more of the watchcats.

Neo-Republicans need to learn what Reagan already knew and what Obama knows: Capitalism is good, but only when the companies they're protecting keep up a good sense of patriotic and moral ethics, rather than worship only the dollar signs. But when business leaders stop worrying about patriotism, it's time for a country to fight back a little bit.

Seriously, nightstrike, do your research. Unethical repackaging/selling of higher risk loans into a lower-risk category because the cats weren't watching anymore, resulted in illegal failure to back those loans with sufficient capital "just in case" someone lost his/her job and couldn't afford to repay the loans. If Bush had kept the watchcats in place, the watchcats could've ensured that those unethical practices didn't result in the illegal failure to back high-risk loans with enough money.

And the house of cards that lacks of patriotism, ethics, and watchcats, collapsed and pretty much demolished this country and parts of the world.

So the answer is NOT to trust the same unpatriotic, unethical, and illegal businessleaders. The wealthy are above the floodwaters enough to survive Romney's push to let similar happen again; most of the populations are not.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:43 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:And what of the poorer people in foreign nations?


Appropriate EXPANSION is one thing. Moving American jobs overseas to turn around and sell the now-foreign products back in America at prices Americans could afford when Americans were making the products, is a problem.


False. The prices are different, thus the gains of trade will differ. You shouldn't ignore that by saying "at prices Americans could afford."


Stalin, explain how Nike-made-overseas pricing being just about the same as made-in-American New Balance pricing, and tell me again the prices are different.


There may be exceptions, but for the most part, goods produced in foreign countries with cheap labor (among other factors) usually can sell such goods at lower prices.

If you buy knockoff Nikes from the very same Chinese factory that makes the real Nikes, then you'd realize that lower price. So, in this particular case, the blame falls on the patent/copyright/trademark system for keeping prices high.

Also, there's many issues involving antitrust laws and WTO nonsense. For example, if Nike outsources much of its production process, and then sells Nikes for cheap in US markets, it may be hit with price dumping. If this factors into their decision-making, then US antitrust law is to blame for keeping the prices higher than they would be.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:44 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
Night Strike wrote:The government forced banks to write 1 sub-prime loan for every 9 good loans instead of what had previously been 1 sub-prime loan for every 99 good loans. Bush warned Congress in 2005 that Fannie Mae and other secondary loan markets had to be reformed to avoid a collapse, but Barney Frank and his cohorts refused to listen and ignored the problem. It has been government involvement in the system that caused all of this mess, not deregulation.


No. Unethical business tactics that were allowed to flourish, is what caused this. The forced loans had still required that the banks and lenders keep back enough funds to cover any losses. Watchdogs (cats) were in place to ensure that happened.

Bush took away the watchdogs (cats). "When the cat's away the mice will play," works well here. Well, Bush took away the cats and the big-business wealthy mice did play.

and the neo-Republican answer to this is to open the gates wider to their play, let them hoard even more of their cheese to play with, and take away more of the watchcats.

Neo-Republicans need to learn what Reagan already knew and what Obama knows: Capitalism is good, but only when the companies they're protecting keep up a good sense of patriotic and moral ethics, rather than worship only the dollar signs. But when business leaders stop worrying about patriotism, it's time for a country to fight back a little bit.

Seriously, nightstrike, do your research. Unethical repackaging/selling of higher risk loans into a lower-risk category because the cats weren't watching anymore, resulted in illegal failure to back those loans with sufficient capital "just in case" someone lost his/her job and couldn't afford to repay the loans. If Bush had kept the watchcats in place, the watchcats could've ensured that those unethical practices didn't result in the illegal failure to back high-risk loans with enough money.

And the house of cards that lacks of patriotism, ethics, and watchcats, collapsed and pretty much demolished this country and parts of the world.

So the answer is NOT to trust the same unpatriotic, unethical, and illegal businessleaders. The wealthy are above the floodwaters enough to survive Romney's push to let similar happen again; most of the populations are not.



Why did banks suddenly grant mortgages to so many riskier borrowers?
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:45 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:And what of the poorer people in foreign nations?


Appropriate EXPANSION is one thing. Moving American jobs overseas to turn around and sell the now-foreign products back in America at prices Americans could afford when Americans were making the products, is a problem.


False. The prices are different, thus the gains of trade will differ. You shouldn't ignore that by saying "at prices Americans could afford."


Stalin, explain how Nike-made-overseas pricing being just about the same as made-in-American New Balance pricing, and tell me again the prices are different.


Nike makes more money.
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