race differences (from McDonald's thread)

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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby nietzsche on Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:21 pm

72o wrote:Why are there no black swimmers in the Olympics? Genetic, or learned behavior?



Professional sports depend a lot on muscle memory. It's so tough that you depend completely in what your muscles can do automatically.

I'd say that determination, practice and then talent is the order of importance for success in professional sports. Some do without much talent, but have great determination and practice a lot. Others have so much talent that need little practice, and their determination is based in the fact they know they are great.

But give the same kind of food and activities to a black man and a white man, and odds are the black guy will develop bigger muscles and more athleticism than the white guy. (A third white man working out ever other day will do better than both in athleticism).

But then take a black man with his size, add talent, practice and determination, and you have Matt Kemp.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby 72o on Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:29 pm

Timminz wrote:
72o wrote:
Timminz wrote:
72o wrote:
Timminz wrote:I think the fact that most of the best basketball players are black has more to do with the fact that basketball is and has been very popular among poorer, black, American neighbourhoods. ie, it's a cultural phenomena, and is not directly attributable to the colour of someone's skin.

If you were to look at a sport with wider appeal (in fact the widest appeal), and take soccer for an example, would the skin-colour arguments still hold true?

There is no wider appeal than running.

Um, no... soccer is far more popular a sport than running.

We're not talking about spectating. We're talking about number of people participating in the activity worldwide.


As a sport? If we're only talking about activities, breathing, drinking, and eating have a wider appeal than anything. Are black people better at breathing, drinking, and eating?

72o wrote:Why are there no black swimmers in the Olympics? Genetic, or learned behavior?


No black Olympic swimmers?! Are you sure you don't want to amend that statement.


Okay, not "none", but few.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Army of GOD on Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:30 pm

My argument against soccer is that it requires a lot more than pure athleticism. Handling a soccer ball is a much harder skill than dribbling a basketball or running with a football in my opinion.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:36 pm

Army of GOD wrote:My argument against soccer is that it requires a lot more than pure athleticism. Handling a soccer ball is a much harder skill than dribbling a basketball or running with a football in my opinion.


Handle your balls and dribble somewhere else dude, we are trying to have a serious discussion here...
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:29 pm

Army of GOD wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:Like I said, it doesn't work on an individual scale. Saying all blacks are more athletic than whites is stupid and racist. Saying, on average, blacks are more athletic isn't. Is it coincidence that like 85% of basketball players are black? How Peyton Hillis is the only what running back and how only slot receivers are white? What about the saying "white men can't jump"?


Is it a coincidence that the American basketball team always dominates all the non-American teams during the Olympics? I think not; therefore, the Americans are intrinsically more athletic than non-Americans.


Let me introduce you to my friend logical fallacy. I think you two would make a great pair. I'm sure you've already met.


Aren't you homogenizing individuals, who might not share the exact same (or general set of) characteristics, into one group (e.g. "black" or "white")?

I used "American" v. "Non-American." You used "black" v. "white." Obviously, mine is false, but by analogy, the black v. white is false for similar reasons.


(1)
So... what does it mean to be "black" (or, "American")? Is it some set of genes? Is it merely skin color? Or is there such an exact thing?
If it's genetic, then what type of genes are generally held by whites and by blacks (Am. v. Non-Am, and etc.)?
(Then what about children from interracial couples? How shall they be lumped into the homogenous groupings of black v. white?)

If you can't answer these, then you should be skeptical about your hypothesis, and this criticism applies to the following as well:


(2)
And how does the black v. white causal relationship account for other important causes, e.g. culture, upbringing, etc.?
(Your explanation does not. It simply serves as a cover-all without explaining the variance caused by important variables. It's just as 'useful' as my "American" v. "Non-American" explanation. All you can factually say is that there's more blacks than whites who play professional basketball. But as soon as you stress that causal relationship, you have to be able to account for the causes.)


For example, compared to white kids, what proportion of black kids grow up playing basketball while having black, athletic role models in mind? Is this self-reinforcing among the homogenous group of "black"? If so, then this would disproportionally expand the pool of potentially professional, black basketball players. (so, it may not be the case that blacks are intrinsically more suited to performing better in basketball due to some alleged, physical advantage. It may be simply be the case that more blacks apply to the basketball profession).

(3)
Then there's the broader issue of how the youth of either group perceive expected profits (monetary and psychological) compared to the relative opportunities. If white kids in general have more perceived opportunities for advancing themselves in whatever fashion compared to black kids, then it should be no surprise that there's less white kids striving to become professional basketball players.


The econometric project would have to hold constant income bracket of the families, geographic regions, genetic make-up, skin color, expectations, etc., etc.

If your hypothesis can't explain the above, then we can reasonably doubt its veracity or simply discard it.
Last edited by BigBallinStalin on Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:35 pm

Army of GOD wrote:My argument against soccer is that it requires a lot more than pure athleticism. Handling a soccer ball is a much harder skill than dribbling a basketball or running with a football in my opinion.


What exactly is 'pure athleticism'?
(Is it something like PhatScotty's vague definition of 'Marxism' which allows him to arbitrarily apply it?) :D


A skill isn't some thing with a single unit of measurement which can be seamlessly applied across all sports and physical activities. Handling a soccer ball requires some skill which would be completely different from dribbling a basketball. In other words, a particular skill in X may not be comparable to a particular skill in Y.

Then there's not only particular skills, but also some set of things like traits, genes, upbringing, etc., which will cater one to having a comparative advantage in a particular physical activity.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:40 pm

I always figured a "black" person was someone whose DNA is mainly of African descent.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby / on Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:40 pm

It is true that race can be useful in narrowing down the genetic traits prevalent among certain people. Skin color is one part of that, as was mentioned, it determines the metabolization and resistance against sunlight, and on the inside humans have been narrowed down to many more strengths and weaknesses from generations of their lifestyles; the tolerance or intolerance to certain foods, lung capacity based on environment, disease resistance and vulnerabilities, differences in metabolizing drugs and foods, bone density, even the size of noses makes some difference.

I would say that there is not enough data to say conclusively what factors are genetic race, and what factors are racial culture (traditional diets, teachings, efficiency of languages, desirability of certain goals, etc), but being born as a "stereotypically cultured" person probably does have significant impact on the end result because of the culmination of said factors.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:45 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:I always figured a "black" person was someone whose DNA is mainly of African descent.


So descendants of Somalians are black? Some are Caucasian ("white"), and yet some Caucasians look Indian or even darker in skin...
What about African Jews, who ancestors hail from modern day Israel (and around that country)?
And what of the American Tunisians? Are they "black"?
And what about the "white" Europeans whose ancestors have been living in sub-saharan Africa for centuries? Are they "black"?

How far must the DNA lineage be in order to conclude that one is of African descent? And what constitutes as "mainly"? (>50%? 75%?)
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:50 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:I always figured a "black" person was someone whose DNA is mainly of African descent.


So descendants of Somalians are black? Some are Caucasian ("white"), and yet some Caucasians look Indian or even darker in skin...
What about African Jews, who ancestors hail from modern day Israel (and around that country)?
And what of the American Tunisians? Are they "black"?
And what about the "white" Europeans whose ancestors have been living in sub-saharan Africa for centuries? Are they "black"?

How far must the DNA lineage be in order to conclude that one is of African descent? And what constitutes as "mainly"? (>50%? 75%?)


Well you have to make an imaginary line in the sand I suppose(no pun intended) in order to believe that black people exist at all. For the sake of argument I have to admit that they do and thus have to conform a little. So yes, I suppose your examples(at least the ones I recognize) would be black by my definition. I think I need more information to answer your question with any real conviction though, BBS. :|
I suppose you have raised a really good question though, BBS: what makes a "black person"? I do have to say though that the color of someone's skin doesn't enter into it in my mind.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:00 pm

/ wrote:It is true that race can be useful in narrowing down the genetic traits prevalent among certain people. Skin color is one part of that, as was mentioned, it determines the metabolization and resistance against sunlight, and on the inside humans have been narrowed down to many more strengths and weaknesses from generations of their lifestyles; the tolerance or intolerance to certain foods, lung capacity based on environment, disease resistance and vulnerabilities, differences in metabolizing drugs and foods, bone density, even the size of noses makes some difference.

I would say that there is not enough data to say conclusively what factors are genetic race, and what factors are racial culture (traditional diets, teachings, efficiency of languages, desirability of certain goals, etc), but being born as a "stereotypically cultured" person probably does have significant impact on the end result because of the culmination of said factors.


Are you relying on circular reasoning? (sincerely, I'm not sure)

In other words, let's 'use race in order to narrow down genetic traits among certain people' (But how did we single out this group of certain people? By a priori calling them race X)?

....

Either way, let's move beyond that, and 'compile a list of people along physical and physiological characteristics such as A, B, C, D, and E.' Group A would have rank highly in A, B, C; Group B would rank highly in C, D, E; Group C would rank highly in A, C, E; etc. So, we have groups that are similar in some respects, but differ in others--and this could be the case for 80% of the sample whose skin color = "black," yet of that 80%, they can differ extraordinarily in other characteristics.

For most who adhere to stereotypes, I don't think the other characteristics really matter to them. They'll simply continue "calling a spade a spade" but only because they don't know any better; it's simply cheaper for them to categorize people on one simple common characteristic, "black."---regardless of the facts.

The same goes for cultural characteristics, but I'd expect most to rely on cognitive bias (confirmation bias), thus perpetuating this concept of race, of "black," etc.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:05 pm

Timminz wrote:I think the fact that most of the best basketball players are black has more to do with the fact that basketball is and has been very popular among poorer, black, American neighbourhoods. ie, it's a cultural phenomena, and is not directly attributable to the colour of someone's skin.

If you were to look at a sport with wider appeal (in fact the widest appeal), and take soccer for an example, would the skin-colour arguments still hold true?


Are you fucking insane? It clearly has nothing to do with environmental factors and everything to do with the color of their skin.[/sarcasm]
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:05 pm

Should we "draw lines in the sand" and group people by the color of their skin?

Why should such concepts as race and "black" and "white" be perpetuated?

Would trying "not to see color" be good or bad?
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:18 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Should we "draw lines in the sand" and group people by the color of their skin?

Why should such concepts as race and "black" and "white" be perpetuated?

Would trying "not to see color" be good or bad?


Shit, that would be great!(to the last statement)
I'm a little bummed that you used my "line in the sand" example though since I thought I made it clear that skin color had nothing to do with my definition. "Black" is just a throwback of a name that unfortunately is still widely used. I plead When in Rome. :oops:
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby / on Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:42 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
/ wrote:It is true that race can be useful in narrowing down the genetic traits prevalent among certain people. Skin color is one part of that, as was mentioned, it determines the metabolization and resistance against sunlight, and on the inside humans have been narrowed down to many more strengths and weaknesses from generations of their lifestyles; the tolerance or intolerance to certain foods, lung capacity based on environment, disease resistance and vulnerabilities, differences in metabolizing drugs and foods, bone density, even the size of noses makes some difference.

I would say that there is not enough data to say conclusively what factors are genetic race, and what factors are racial culture (traditional diets, teachings, efficiency of languages, desirability of certain goals, etc), but being born as a "stereotypically cultured" person probably does have significant impact on the end result because of the culmination of said factors.


Are you relying on circular reasoning? (sincerely, I'm not sure)

In other words, let's 'use race in order to narrow down genetic traits among certain people' (But how did we single out this group of certain people? By a priori calling them race X)?

....

Either way, let's move beyond that, and 'compile a list of people along physical and physiological characteristics such as A, B, C, D, and E.' Group A would have rank highly in A, B, C; Group B would rank highly in C, D, E; Group C would rank highly in A, C, E; etc. So, we have groups that are similar in some respects, but differ in others--and this could be the case for 80% of the sample whose skin color = "black," yet of that 80%, they can differ extraordinarily in other characteristics.

For most who adhere to stereotypes, I don't think the other characteristics really matter to them. They'll simply continue "calling a spade a spade" but only because they don't know any better; it's simply cheaper for them to categorize people on one simple common characteristic, "black."---regardless of the facts.

The same goes for cultural characteristics, but I'd expect most to rely on cognitive bias (confirmation bias), thus perpetuating this concept of race, of "black," etc.


I'm sorry, I'm not very coherent today, by "stereotypically cultured" I was trying to get across that people of certain lineages have an average standard of tradition that most in that culture adhere to, for example, the “Stereotypical Tibetan” person is genetically diverse from the Han Chinese, lives in high altitudes common to the region, follows traditions and teachings common to their region such as Tibetan Buddhism, and eats cuisine heavy in barley, dairy, and mustard seed.
Ethnic Tibetans living in Tibet are known to have high levels of nitric oxide, increased blood flow, and easier metabolization in high altitudes than a foreigner who moves to Tibet. Whether this is caused solely by environment, or if it includes genetics and other factors as well is being researched, but whatever the cause; it would be a factual statement to say the average Tibetan is more suited to a high altitude than the average person globally.
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