race differences (from McDonald's thread)

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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:43 am

You know, I wish woodruff were here to see this. This is just proof that an argument doesn't inherently need to escalate to the point of name calling and stonewalling. A selection of people discussing a sensitive subject without calling one another "bitch" or "fucktard"; who knew it was possible? I can't believe that any of us have all that much in common that we will completely and wholeheartedly agree to anything, but isn't this nice? Hell, I could admit to being completely wrong on this one if it so developed and it wouldn't hurt one bit. Group hug, guys?
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:56 am

Funkyterrance wrote:You know, I wish woodruff were here to see this. This is just proof that an argument doesn't inherently need to escalate to the point of name calling and stonewalling. A selection of people discussing a sensitive subject without calling one another "bitch" or "fucktard"; who knew it was possible? I can't believe that any of us have all that much in common that we will completely and wholeheartedly agree to anything, but isn't this nice? Hell, I could admit to being completely wrong on this one if it so developed and it wouldn't hurt one bit. Group hug, guys?


I recently had a FB chat about gay marriage, which garnered 414 comments. Even some people from this site participated.

I don't think there were any names called, surely not a single one to me or by me. It truly was a great feeling, and I think we all felt it. The thing to remember here is one bad apple spoils the bunch. So when you come across a rotten apple, throw it in the garbage and never look back!

It's also possible the conversation only went smoothly because certain people are not here.

:-k
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:12 am

john9blue wrote:i haven't read much of the thread but i'd like to address part of the OP...

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Another bias is when men create the tests and just innately consider "male" type thinking to be superior. This is far more subtle and complicated. It has been well studied. The impact is changing because girls and boys now have more equal education than they did in the past, but at the highest assessement levels there is apparently still a bias that has to do with those tests heavily targeting a kind of specific linear thinking.


if you knew anything about IQ distribution, you'd know that the mean IQ's of males and females is the same. IQ variance, however, is higher among males. that is why most geniuses are male. most profoundly retarded people are also male, but you never hear about them.

First, I was talking history, and women (along with non-whites) absolutely were misjudged by misguided tests in the past. Beyond that, the explanation you provide is not universally accepted. There are a lot of questions over why the patterns that are seen happen....if its, for example, that more males get tested or if there is some innate bias. I don't believe there is a definitive answer, except that how these tests are used and when is more refined. The fact that you threw out that bit about "you hear of the top end, but not the bottom".. is just wrong. One thing we do know, there is not the direct correlation between success and IQ that was once thought would exist.

When you touch on "What is IQ", then its also good to look at models of various types of intelligence. A LOT of people think those kinds of more comprehensive analysis give a far better picture than IQ.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:17 am

Army of GOD wrote:Like I said, it doesn't work on an individual scale. Saying all blacks are more athletic than whites is stupid and racist. Saying, on average, blacks are more athletic isn't. Is it coincidence that like 85% of basketball players are black? How Peyton Hillis is the only what running back and how only slot receivers are white? What about the saying "white men can't jump"?

The basic question is whether blacks actually ARE more atheletic overall.

You cite several famous atheletes, but are they truly representative of the black population as a whole? Timminz mentioned one point, that even pretty recently, sports has been one of the few avenues "out" of poverty for many kids in the black community. At a time when the only blacks you really saw who were not drug dealers were athletes or pop stars, the idea of being a Wallstreet executive, etc just was not that popular. Similarly, those who went into biology tended to go into medicine, not natural resource studies. Attorneys was another "push" job..(a job parents would point to and say "go for that", don't follow my track).

So, is it really that blacks are more atheletic or is it just that those blacks you see, even today tend to be more the athletes?
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Neoteny on Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:37 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Let the first man who has no skin color draw the first line.


This is a pretty good little sound bite.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby john9blue on Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:55 pm

f*ck you BBS, i am an artist and i will draw lines whenever the hell i want.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:09 pm

Army of GOD wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:Like I said, it doesn't work on an individual scale. Saying all blacks are more athletic than whites is stupid and racist. Saying, on average, blacks are more athletic isn't. Is it coincidence that like 85% of basketball players are black? How Peyton Hillis is the only what running back and how only slot receivers are white? What about the saying "white men can't jump"?


Is it a coincidence that the American basketball team always dominates all the non-American teams during the Olympics? I think not; therefore, the Americans are intrinsically more athletic than non-Americans.


Let me introduce you to my friend logical fallacy. I think you two would make a great pair. I'm sure you've already met.


Aren't you homogenizing individuals, who might not share the exact same (or general set of) characteristics, into one group (e.g. "black" or "white")?

I used "American" v. "Non-American." You used "black" v. "white." Obviously, mine is false, but by analogy, the black v. white is false for similar reasons.


(1)
So... what does it mean to be "black" (or, "American")? Is it some set of genes? Is it merely skin color? Or is there such an exact thing?
If it's genetic, then what type of genes are generally held by whites and by blacks (Am. v. Non-Am, and etc.)?
(Then what about children from interracial couples? How shall they be lumped into the homogenous groupings of black v. white?)

If you can't answer these, then you should be skeptical about your hypothesis, and this criticism applies to the following as well:


I stopped here just because I need to make it clear that I am skeptical of my own hypothesis. Like I said, I'm only saying what I'm saying in this thread as if someone put a gun to my head and demanded an answer. I have no scientific backing for my opinion, just pure observation.

I probably didn't make that incredibly clear in my first few posts, but I know my argument is very fallible. I'd go deeper, but I'm in a bus full of rugby players on our way to Buffalo so titties


[AoG's bus drives down the road]

[BBS runs out to the middle, raises his fist, and screams, "DAMN YOU, AOG!!!!"]
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:11 pm

/ wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Okay, I see.

And the average human being has one testicle.

:lol: yes, I suppose so, is that your criticism of categorizations based on common lines of characteristics?
The fact is that many divergences we call "Races" have been genetically isolated for literally tens of thousands of years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_gene ... n_genetics
Do you believe that having words to acknowledge these divides is somehow wrong?
Dachshunds are known to have complications related to their short legs and long spinal columns, Bulldogs are known to have a 73.9% occurrence rate of Hip dysplasia, they're both dogs, is it wrong to draw differences between the two and take precautions against the problems they are likely to face?




For reasons already stated, there's a lot of ambiguity with "race" and "blacks v. whites."

It's so ambiguous that these kinds of discussions are meaningless unless exact definitions can be clarified.

That's the tl;dr Main Point summary of my position ITT.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:12 pm

john9blue wrote:f*ck you BBS, i am an artist and i will draw lines whenever the hell i want.


That isn't art.

YOU SIMPLETON!
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:11 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
john9blue wrote:f*ck you BBS, i am an artist and i will draw lines whenever the hell i want.


That isn't art.

YOU SIMPLETON!


Image
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby jimboston on Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:27 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:what constitutes IQ and whether it is an actual indicator of anything .. or whether IQ is really measuring the attribute we think is important (ability to aquire new information readily).


Is that what IQ Measures?
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Neoteny on Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:47 pm

I propose that everyone who has an interest in the scientific inquiry into intelligence or physiology of different "races" are all racist.

To be exempt from this: without using Google, please list three other areas of basic or applied research in the fields of psychology or physiology that you are as knowledgeable about.

:]><
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:09 pm

Neoteny wrote:I propose that everyone who has an interest in the scientific inquiry into intelligence or physiology of different "races" are all racist.

To be exempt from this: without using Google, please list three other areas of basic or applied research in the fields of psychology or physiology that you are as knowledgeable about.

:]><


I propose that anyone who has an interest in proving that someone is racist by using untenable exemptions is racist.

To be exempt from this: without using Google, please list three other areas of basic or applied research in the fields of Cyber Communications that you are as knowledgable about.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Neoteny on Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:56 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Neoteny wrote:I propose that everyone who has an interest in the scientific inquiry into intelligence or physiology of different "races" are all racist.

To be exempt from this: without using Google, please list three other areas of basic or applied research in the fields of psychology or physiology that you are as knowledgeable about.

:]><


I propose that anyone who has an interest in proving that someone is racist by using untenable exemptions is racist.

To be exempt from this: without using Google, please list three other areas of basic or applied research in the fields of Cyber Communications that you are as knowledgable about.


That's not really equivalent. If I were referencing cyber communications science to support my proposal for labeling racists, then it would be. But it's irrelevant, really. I considered using "biology" and "all science" as my categories too. I decided on specializing it for a reason. If I started a thread about the genesis and growth of Renshaw cells in the developing spinal cord, I might get a post or two of interest, and the thread will quickly fall off the page. But start a thread about something controversial, and suddenly people are impartial investigators furthering the cause of science. But most aren't. Most are promoting religion (evolution), politics (global warming), etc. Of course not everyone is going to have an interest in cord development. But if you don't have a single other interest in a remotely related field, I call bullshit. No one in this forum is going to call me out on Renshaw cells. But if I state that race has an insignificant effect on average body size, suddenly everyone is Sir Science, on her mighty steed, Empiricism, armed with blogs of Truth and Rationality. I sort of just want people to question why they care about these things. If you interested in equality, or fairness, or just plain controversy, fine. But if you are lying to me about how you are for "sound science" or whatever, I have to question why you really care.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:22 pm

Neoteny wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Neoteny wrote:I propose that everyone who has an interest in the scientific inquiry into intelligence or physiology of different "races" are all racist.

To be exempt from this: without using Google, please list three other areas of basic or applied research in the fields of psychology or physiology that you are as knowledgeable about.

:]><


I propose that anyone who has an interest in proving that someone is racist by using untenable exemptions is racist.

To be exempt from this: without using Google, please list three other areas of basic or applied research in the fields of Cyber Communications that you are as knowledgable about.


That's not really equivalent. If I were referencing cyber communications science to support my proposal for labeling racists, then it would be. But it's irrelevant, really. I considered using "biology" and "all science" as my categories too. I decided on specializing it for a reason. If I started a thread about the genesis and growth of Renshaw cells in the developing spinal cord, I might get a post or two of interest, and the thread will quickly fall off the page. But start a thread about something controversial, and suddenly people are impartial investigators furthering the cause of science. But most aren't. Most are promoting religion (evolution), politics (global warming), etc. Of course not everyone is going to have an interest in cord development. But if you don't have a single other interest in a remotely related field, I call bullshit. No one in this forum is going to call me out on Renshaw cells. But if I state that race has an insignificant effect on average body size, suddenly everyone is Sir Science, on her mighty steed, Empiricism, armed with blogs of Truth and Rationality. I sort of just want people to question why they care about these things. If you interested in equality, or fairness, or just plain controversy, fine. But if you are lying to me about how you are for "sound science" or whatever, I have to question why you really care.


*sigh* I'll be less subtle. I thought using the phrase "Cyber Communications" would hint at "The Holy Trinity of Internet Communications," and that the false equivalance argument was obvious enough.


But you do bring up some great points. Yes, people presume knowledge over which they don't know (e.g. economics, BBS). However, there's several ways to address this problem. Two of which are: (1) Encourage people to use different analytical frameworks for understanding causal relationships, or (2) try to shut down the inquiry while labeling people racist.

I opt for #1 by using the econometric way of thinking. You've regrettably opted for #2, which in my opinion is not at all productive/useful because it still leaves people wondering about those causal relationships. At least with the #1 approach, I provide some people the means for framing such questions in order to become more skeptical about their personal observations and the conclusions which they ponder.

Hopefully, that clears up the confusion. RE: your last sentence, Sure, many scientists don't view inquiries about race as decent, but that in no way contributes to the public discourse. Many (even scientists) adhere to th pretense of knowledge, but at least many are willing to understand through questions and argument. Side-stepping and/or undercuttnig the entire debate fails to undermine the sources of racism through idea creation in the non-scientific spheres. I'm tackling this problem, and you're essentially calling people racists (which isn't nearly as useful). It's almost as useless as Symmetry's approach of calling people idiots.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Symmetry on Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:27 pm

You're getting obsessed again.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Neoteny on Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:07 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:*sigh* I'll be less subtle. I thought using the phrase "Cyber Communications" would hint at "The Holy Trinity of Internet Communications," and that the false equivalance argument was obvious enough.


But you do bring up some great points. Yes, people presume knowledge over which they don't know (e.g. economics, BBS). However, there's several ways to address this problem. Two of which are: (1) Encourage people to use different analytical frameworks for understanding causal relationships, or (2) try to shut down the inquiry while labeling people racist.

I opt for #1 by using the econometric way of thinking. You've regrettably opted for #2, which in my opinion is not at all productive/useful because it still leaves people wondering about those causal relationships. At least with the #1 approach, I provide some people the means for framing such questions in order to become more skeptical about their personal observations and the conclusions which they ponder.

Hopefully, that clears up the confusion. RE: your last sentence, Sure, many scientists don't view inquiries about race as decent, but that in no way contributes to the public discourse. Many (even scientists) adhere to th pretense of knowledge, but at least many are willing to understand through questions and argument. Side-stepping and/or undercuttnig the entire debate fails to undermine the sources of racism through idea creation in the non-scientific spheres. I'm tackling this problem, and you're essentially calling people racists (which isn't nearly as useful). It's almost as useless as Symmetry's approach of calling people idiots.


You're very correct in that assessment. Indeed, my original proposal comes across as somewhat non-sequitur for a reason. Not many people in this thread have discussed their motivations for joining this fracas. But I've played in these trenches. I've seen things you wouldn't believe, man. I know who holds the perspective I'm criticizing. And some of them are here. Now, I'm as sad as you are that these younger whippersnappers are maybe missing out on having some 98.5% reagent grade knowledge dropped on they asses, but I'm just a man. I have an ATP reserve comparable to that of your average black man. Or white man. Or purple man. I'm here to enjoy myself. Sometimes that involves talking science. But it's hard work. It's difficult to spend time putting an argument together to have Scotty play the race card card and scamper away. It's exhausting trying to explain to Gabon what a peer-reviewed source is, much less to get him to post one. Sometimes its more fun to feed into their paranoia that I just think everyone in the world is a racist. I won't be able to change their mind anyway. I think you know that sometimes taking the high road feels frustrating. Ineffective. Pointless. But you have to ask yourself: are you having fun? You can spend hours of your life explaining the minutiae of the work you love, and then have to stare at the ceiling before you sleep wondering whether addressing these racists legitimizes them. Whether it is really going to make a difference to them. Whether letting them know they kept you up for two minutes one night will just encourage them. I'll let you decide where you draw your line. But if you want to criticize my methods and motivations, then I'll, well, let you have cake.

Like I hinted at above, you and I are very likely in agreement on this.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:22 pm

Neoteny wrote:I propose that everyone who has an interest in the scientific inquiry into intelligence or physiology of different "races" are all racist.

To be exempt from this: without using Google, please list three other areas of basic or applied research in the fields of psychology or physiology that you are as knowledgeable about.

:]><

That is essentially a self-fulfilling definition. The more you know about races, the less you se that any single trait can be tied to any race.

That said, if you narrow any population down, you can get better data than with a broader group. If you take blacks in the US, they are going to be very slightly more closely related than all people in the US, and so just by that measure may come up with better data. In that large a group, the distinction might not matter. (or, as I am sure you are aware, it might just make more of a mess -- by narrowing using the wrong criteria, you create worse data, not better) That said, most data that is studied finds this kind of division is not very useful. When exceptions exist, it is not because of genetic reasons, it tends to be because of behavior/social/lifestyle reasons. Those things ARE tied to race because many options for "living" were just limited for blacks historically in this country. AS the opportunities of all sorts are expanding, it is likely that many of the difficulties tied to "being black" might dissappear.

In addition, we know that many genetic traits are tied together. DNA is, I believe the word is "conservative" -- likes to "reuse" the same information for various purposes (sort of). Pursuing any ties to race is therefore intuitively sensible. However, if you insist that links MUST exist when data does not show that, or to just insist that genetics must be a play because there is a correlation between race and a specific impact , then you are racist.

In short... many studies have turned out to be racist in intent or conclusion. However, the basic idea of seeing IF there is a link is not, in and of itself racist. Science is about investigation. Sometimes we investigate to effectively prove something (eliminate other probable answers).. and sometimes to eliminate it.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:28 pm

jimboston wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:what constitutes IQ and whether it is an actual indicator of anything .. or whether IQ is really measuring the attribute we think is important (ability to aquire new information readily).


Is that what IQ Measures?

LOL... IQ tests measure how well an individual does on an IQ test.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Neoteny on Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:52 pm

I have this nagging feeling that you may have missed a couple of my posts.
Napoleon Ier wrote:You people need to grow up to be honest.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Army of GOD on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:05 pm

Neoteny wrote:nagging


racist
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby jimboston on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:27 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
jimboston wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:what constitutes IQ and whether it is an actual indicator of anything .. or whether IQ is really measuring the attribute we think is important (ability to aquire new information readily).


Is that what IQ Measures?

LOL... IQ tests measure how well an individual does on an IQ test.


Perhaps.

It certainly doesn't measure the "ability to aquire new information readily"... neither does it measure the "ability to acquire new information readily."

Intelligence is NOT the ability to acquire information.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:52 pm

jimboston wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
jimboston wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:what constitutes IQ and whether it is an actual indicator of anything .. or whether IQ is really measuring the attribute we think is important (ability to aquire new information readily).


Is that what IQ Measures?

LOL... IQ tests measure how well an individual does on an IQ test.


Perhaps.

It certainly doesn't measure the "ability to aquire new information readily"... neither does it measure the "ability to acquire new information readily."

Intelligence is NOT the ability to acquire information.

If you re-read what I said, I said that there is a QUESTION of whether the test is measuring the attribute we think important, whether it actually truly measures the ability to aquire information readily.

Many people assume it does.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:00 pm

Neoteny wrote:I propose that everyone who has an interest in the scientific inquiry into intelligence or physiology of different "races" are all racist.

To be exempt from this: without using Google, please list three other areas of basic or applied research in the fields of psychology or physiology that you are as knowledgeable about.

:]><


You could use bing.com.

All I'm saying is that if the color of one's skin correlated to athleticism, then on Saturday I would not have seen a white wide receiver from Iowa (or Idaho) outrun a black cornerback.

I wonder if there has ever been any studies on how many [insert sport] players are from poor or lower middle class backgrounds versus middle class, upper middle class or rich backgrounds. I bet 3/4ths of all professional atheletes are from low to middle class backgrounds.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:16 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
All I'm saying is that if the color of one's skin correlated to athleticism, then on Saturday I would not have seen a white wide receiver from Iowa (or Idaho) outrun a black cornerback.

I wonder if there has ever been any studies on how many [insert sport] players are from poor or lower middle class backgrounds versus middle class, upper middle class or rich backgrounds. I bet 3/4ths of all professional atheletes are from low to middle class backgrounds.


Wow, you said a mouthful. I'm not arguing your stance but I have some issues with your examples...
White people from the US tend to be economically advantaged, generally speaking. That being considered, wouldn't a white person have, in general, access to more nutritious foods and better facilities for training? Also, what is the inference regarding 75% of professional athletes coming from low to middle class backgrounds? I'm a little behind in this thread so please excuse me if I missed something.
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