race differences (from McDonald's thread)

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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Army of GOD on Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:53 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Neoteny wrote:I propose that everyone who has an interest in the scientific inquiry into intelligence or physiology of different "races" are all racist.

To be exempt from this: without using Google, please list three other areas of basic or applied research in the fields of psychology or physiology that you are as knowledgeable about.

:]><


You could use bing.com.

All I'm saying is that if the color of one's skin correlated to athleticism, then on Saturday I would not have seen a white wide receiver from Iowa (or Idaho) outrun a black cornerback.

I wonder if there has ever been any studies on how many [insert sport] players are from poor or lower middle class backgrounds versus middle class, upper middle class or rich backgrounds. I bet 3/4ths of all professional atheletes are from low to middle class backgrounds.


ITT: thegreekdog thinks "on average" means "all"


ITT: AoG thinks that 76% of the NBA (or 342 of 450 players) consisting of black men means that the average black person is more athletic than the average white person.


oh, so NOW you understand my argument
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:56 pm

Army of GOD wrote:oh, so NOW you understand my argument


No, I really don't.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:56 pm

Army of GOD wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
ITT: AoG thinks that 76% of the NBA (or 342 of 450 players) consisting of black men means that the average black person is more athletic than the average white person.


oh, so NOW you understand my argument


You have to admit TGD, he's got his right to his opinion.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:58 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:oh, so NOW you understand my argument


No, I really don't.


Damn it, he just finished the discussion TGD lol. Now it's time to move on to something else. :lol:
Last edited by Funkyterrance on Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:58 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
ITT: AoG thinks that 76% of the NBA (or 342 of 450 players) consisting of black men means that the average black person is more athletic than the average white person.


oh, so NOW you understand my argument


You have to admit TGD, he's got his right to his opinion.


That blacks have bigger muscles than whites? On average?
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Army of GOD on Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:00 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:oh, so NOW you understand my argument


No, I really don't.


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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:00 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
ITT: AoG thinks that 76% of the NBA (or 342 of 450 players) consisting of black men means that the average black person is more athletic than the average white person.


oh, so NOW you understand my argument


You have to admit TGD, he's got his right to his opinion.


That blacks have bigger muscles than whites? On average?


No that he chooses to believe that the fact that the NBA is composed of 76% black people is enough evidence that the average black person is more athletic than the average white person. It has all other kinds of implications but it's not our problem. :D
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:03 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
ITT: AoG thinks that 76% of the NBA (or 342 of 450 players) consisting of black men means that the average black person is more athletic than the average white person.


oh, so NOW you understand my argument


You have to admit TGD, he's got his right to his opinion.


That blacks have bigger muscles than whites? On average?


No that he chooses to believe that the fact that the NBA is composed of 76% black people is enough evidence to him that the average black person is more athletic than the average white person. It has all other kinds of implications but it's not our problem. :D


I'm no scientist, statistician, or logician, but a sample size of 450 people is probably not enough to make a generalization about most of the people in the world.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:06 pm

Army of GOD wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:oh, so NOW you understand my argument


No, I really don't.


Image


What is the psychological affect of using actual footage of AoG to flame him? The layering is mind boggling.
Last edited by Funkyterrance on Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:11 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
I'm no scientist, statistician, or logician, but a sample size of 450 people is probably not enough to make a generalization about most of the people in the world.


Funkyterrance wrote:No that he chooses to believe that the fact that the NBA is composed of 76% black people is enough evidence to him that the average black person is more athletic than the average white person. It has all other kinds of implications but it's not our problem. :D


Herein lie the answers which you seek.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Army of GOD on Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:19 pm

You guys are right, the ONLY thing I based my opinion on is the percent of black basketball players in the NBA.

>mfw
>mfw I have no face
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:28 pm

Army of GOD wrote:You guys are right, the ONLY thing I based my opinion on is the percent of black basketball players in the NBA.

>mfw
>mfw I have no face


AoG, I really meant it when I said you have your right to your opinion. I think you should be allowed to believe what you believe with whatever evidence you want. You simply stated that you agreed with TGD's understanding of your position and therefore there's no more argument. You've properly ended it, don't back-peddle now else your stance means completely nothing. You can of course admit you are wrong and agree with TGD but that is the only other alternative.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:35 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
ITT: AoG thinks that 76% of the NBA (or 342 of 450 players) consisting of black men means that the average black person is more athletic than the average white person.


oh, so NOW you understand my argument


You have to admit TGD, he's got his right to his opinion.


That blacks have bigger muscles than whites? On average?


but smaller penises
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:41 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
ITT: AoG thinks that 76% of the NBA (or 342 of 450 players) consisting of black men means that the average black person is more athletic than the average white person.


oh, so NOW you understand my argument


You have to admit TGD, he's got his right to his opinion.


That blacks have bigger muscles than whites? On average?


but smaller penises


Well my African American buddy happens to be staying over my house tonight...
Yup, roger on that Scotty.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:46 am

Neoteny wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:*sigh* I'll be less subtle. I thought using the phrase "Cyber Communications" would hint at "The Holy Trinity of Internet Communications," and that the false equivalance argument was obvious enough.


But you do bring up some great points. Yes, people presume knowledge over which they don't know (e.g. economics, BBS). However, there's several ways to address this problem. Two of which are: (1) Encourage people to use different analytical frameworks for understanding causal relationships, or (2) try to shut down the inquiry while labeling people racist.

I opt for #1 by using the econometric way of thinking. You've regrettably opted for #2, which in my opinion is not at all productive/useful because it still leaves people wondering about those causal relationships. At least with the #1 approach, I provide some people the means for framing such questions in order to become more skeptical about their personal observations and the conclusions which they ponder.

Hopefully, that clears up the confusion. RE: your last sentence, Sure, many scientists don't view inquiries about race as decent, but that in no way contributes to the public discourse. Many (even scientists) adhere to th pretense of knowledge, but at least many are willing to understand through questions and argument. Side-stepping and/or undercuttnig the entire debate fails to undermine the sources of racism through idea creation in the non-scientific spheres. I'm tackling this problem, and you're essentially calling people racists (which isn't nearly as useful). It's almost as useless as Symmetry's approach of calling people idiots.


You're very correct in that assessment. Indeed, my original proposal comes across as somewhat non-sequitur for a reason. Not many people in this thread have discussed their motivations for joining this fracas. But I've played in these trenches. I've seen things you wouldn't believe, man. I know who holds the perspective I'm criticizing. And some of them are here. Now, I'm as sad as you are that these younger whippersnappers are maybe missing out on having some 98.5% reagent grade knowledge dropped on they asses, but I'm just a man. I have an ATP reserve comparable to that of your average black man. Or white man. Or purple man. I'm here to enjoy myself. Sometimes that involves talking science. But it's hard work. It's difficult to spend time putting an argument together to have Scotty play the race card card and scamper away. It's exhausting trying to explain to Gabon what a peer-reviewed source is, much less to get him to post one. Sometimes its more fun to feed into their paranoia that I just think everyone in the world is a racist. I won't be able to change their mind anyway. I think you know that sometimes taking the high road feels frustrating. Ineffective. Pointless. But you have to ask yourself: are you having fun? You can spend hours of your life explaining the minutiae of the work you love, and then have to stare at the ceiling before you sleep wondering whether addressing these racists legitimizes them. Whether it is really going to make a difference to them. Whether letting them know they kept you up for two minutes one night will just encourage them. I'll let you decide where you draw your line. But if you want to criticize my methods and motivations, then I'll, well, let you have cake.

Like I hinted at above, you and I are very likely in agreement on this.


As long as my cake comes loaded with ATP, I'm happy.

As far as the High Road Crusade goes, it seems to be the best choice. By analogy, if I took your approach with economics, I'd turn into an 70-year-old white man calling these clowns a bunch of idiots for buying into the political hype and the well-intended nonsense of disastrous socialist policies. But, would that approach be better? Maybe. I'll consider it.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Funkyterrance on Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:57 am

Neoteny wrote:
You're very correct in that assessment. Indeed, my original proposal comes across as somewhat non-sequitur for a reason. Not many people in this thread have discussed their motivations for joining this fracas. But I've played in these trenches. I've seen things you wouldn't believe, man. I know who holds the perspective I'm criticizing. And some of them are here. Now, I'm as sad as you are that these younger whippersnappers are maybe missing out on having some 98.5% reagent grade knowledge dropped on they asses, but I'm just a man. I have an ATP reserve comparable to that of your average black man. Or white man. Or purple man. I'm here to enjoy myself. Sometimes that involves talking science. But it's hard work. It's difficult to spend time putting an argument together to have Scotty play the race card card and scamper away. It's exhausting trying to explain to Gabon what a peer-reviewed source is, much less to get him to post one. Sometimes its more fun to feed into their paranoia that I just think everyone in the world is a racist. I won't be able to change their mind anyway. I think you know that sometimes taking the high road feels frustrating. Ineffective. Pointless. But you have to ask yourself: are you having fun? You can spend hours of your life explaining the minutiae of the work you love, and then have to stare at the ceiling before you sleep wondering whether addressing these racists legitimizes them. Whether it is really going to make a difference to them. Whether letting them know they kept you up for two minutes one night will just encourage them. I'll let you decide where you draw your line. But if you want to criticize my methods and motivations, then I'll, well, let you have cake.

Like I hinted at above, you and I are very likely in agreement on this.


If you continue to look at a racist as somehow different from you on a basic level then yeah you are wasting your time.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby jimboston on Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:13 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
jimboston wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
jimboston wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:what constitutes IQ and whether it is an actual indicator of anything .. or whether IQ is really measuring the attribute we think is important (ability to aquire new information readily).


Is that what IQ Measures?

LOL... IQ tests measure how well an individual does on an IQ test.


Perhaps.

It certainly doesn't measure the "ability to aquire new information readily"... neither does it measure the "ability to acquire new information readily."

Intelligence is NOT the ability to acquire information.

If you re-read what I said, I said that there is a QUESTION of whether the test is measuring the attribute we think important, whether it actually truly measures the ability to aquire information readily.

Many people assume it does.


If you re-read my post, you will see I am not debating wether or not the tes is effective.

I am debating what you are saying in regards to what it is supposed to measure.
It's not supposed to measure one's ability to acquire (or as you say aquire) new information readily. It's supposed to measure intelligence... the ability to PROCESS information, to think critically and make decisions... not the ability to ACQUIRE information.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby jimboston on Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:14 am

thegreekdog wrote:
ITT: AoG thinks that 76% of the NBA (or 342 of 450 players) consisting of black men means that the average black person is more athletic than the average white person.


Isn't it a well known fact that White Men Can't Jump?

I saw this in a movie once, so it must be true.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:07 am

jimboston wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
jimboston wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
jimboston wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:what constitutes IQ and whether it is an actual indicator of anything .. or whether IQ is really measuring the attribute we think is important (ability to aquire new information readily).


Is that what IQ Measures?

LOL... IQ tests measure how well an individual does on an IQ test.


Perhaps.

It certainly doesn't measure the "ability to aquire new information readily"... neither does it measure the "ability to acquire new information readily."

Intelligence is NOT the ability to acquire information.

If you re-read what I said, I said that there is a QUESTION of whether the test is measuring the attribute we think important, whether it actually truly measures the ability to aquire information readily.

Many people assume it does.


If you re-read my post, you will see I am not debating wether or not the tes is effective.

I am debating what you are saying in regards to what it is supposed to measure.
It's not supposed to measure one's ability to acquire (or as you say aquire) new information readily. It's supposed to measure intelligence... the ability to PROCESS information, to think critically and make decisions... not the ability to ACQUIRE information.

Its supposed to measure both, but it does better at assessing one's ability to acquire information.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:20 am

Army of GOD wrote:You guys are right, the ONLY thing I based my opinion on is the percent of black basketball players in the NBA.

>mfw
>mfw I have no face

But you are still wrong.. and seem to not have admitted that.

See, the truth is that while many people THINK there is a distinct physical difference between blacks and whites, there actually is not. Training programs, attitudes and upbringing have a lot more to do with what differences exist than genetics.

The fact that I biked 7 miles back and forth to school, plus did assorted other physical chores, from the time I was 6, has impacted my current physical health and stamina... despite the fact that I have become relatively sedentary in these past few years.

My ability to listen, watch and learn was why I could lift heavier things, do more physical work than many guys who were a good foot taller and who had a good deal more muscle mass than I back when I was in my 20's. I was not stronger, but I knew how to use what I had much better.

Those types of differences mean much more than genetics.. and that is the type of difference you see when you look at either the runners of Africa or black basketball stars.

The anomolies you note are occasionally true in a very small population.. a family, a town that is effectively the same family or set of families. If you expand to the level of race, then you find as much or more variation within each race as you do between the races. (and that is even setting aside the question of whether race truly exists at all).
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Neoteny on Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:59 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Neoteny wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:*sigh* I'll be less subtle. I thought using the phrase "Cyber Communications" would hint at "The Holy Trinity of Internet Communications," and that the false equivalance argument was obvious enough.


But you do bring up some great points. Yes, people presume knowledge over which they don't know (e.g. economics, BBS). However, there's several ways to address this problem. Two of which are: (1) Encourage people to use different analytical frameworks for understanding causal relationships, or (2) try to shut down the inquiry while labeling people racist.

I opt for #1 by using the econometric way of thinking. You've regrettably opted for #2, which in my opinion is not at all productive/useful because it still leaves people wondering about those causal relationships. At least with the #1 approach, I provide some people the means for framing such questions in order to become more skeptical about their personal observations and the conclusions which they ponder.

Hopefully, that clears up the confusion. RE: your last sentence, Sure, many scientists don't view inquiries about race as decent, but that in no way contributes to the public discourse. Many (even scientists) adhere to th pretense of knowledge, but at least many are willing to understand through questions and argument. Side-stepping and/or undercuttnig the entire debate fails to undermine the sources of racism through idea creation in the non-scientific spheres. I'm tackling this problem, and you're essentially calling people racists (which isn't nearly as useful). It's almost as useless as Symmetry's approach of calling people idiots.


You're very correct in that assessment. Indeed, my original proposal comes across as somewhat non-sequitur for a reason. Not many people in this thread have discussed their motivations for joining this fracas. But I've played in these trenches. I've seen things you wouldn't believe, man. I know who holds the perspective I'm criticizing. And some of them are here. Now, I'm as sad as you are that these younger whippersnappers are maybe missing out on having some 98.5% reagent grade knowledge dropped on they asses, but I'm just a man. I have an ATP reserve comparable to that of your average black man. Or white man. Or purple man. I'm here to enjoy myself. Sometimes that involves talking science. But it's hard work. It's difficult to spend time putting an argument together to have Scotty play the race card card and scamper away. It's exhausting trying to explain to Gabon what a peer-reviewed source is, much less to get him to post one. Sometimes its more fun to feed into their paranoia that I just think everyone in the world is a racist. I won't be able to change their mind anyway. I think you know that sometimes taking the high road feels frustrating. Ineffective. Pointless. But you have to ask yourself: are you having fun? You can spend hours of your life explaining the minutiae of the work you love, and then have to stare at the ceiling before you sleep wondering whether addressing these racists legitimizes them. Whether it is really going to make a difference to them. Whether letting them know they kept you up for two minutes one night will just encourage them. I'll let you decide where you draw your line. But if you want to criticize my methods and motivations, then I'll, well, let you have cake.

Like I hinted at above, you and I are very likely in agreement on this.


As long as my cake comes loaded with ATP, I'm happy.

As far as the High Road Crusade goes, it seems to be the best choice. By analogy, if I took your approach with economics, I'd turn into an 70-year-old white man calling these clowns a bunch of idiots for buying into the political hype and the well-intended nonsense of disastrous socialist policies. But, would that approach be better? Maybe. I'll consider it.


:sigh: I'll be less subtle. I was hoping that the phrase "Let them have cake" would serve as a reference that you are a hypocrite for calling me out on ineffectual baiting directed at people that I find dishonest, malicious, and frustrating. You've already tried my tactic, though on a grander scale, and perhaps with a different goal. Who are you to tell me if the high road is better, BBS? Particularly when my goal is to create a little happiness amidst a depressing situation? Insert master baiter joke here.

PS. If someone actually wants to discuss the science of race, I'm usually happy to do so. Just let me know when the anecdotes about sports give way to something realistic. Until then, I'll probably just bait the race-baiters.

Funkyterrance wrote:
Neoteny wrote:
You're very correct in that assessment. Indeed, my original proposal comes across as somewhat non-sequitur for a reason. Not many people in this thread have discussed their motivations for joining this fracas. But I've played in these trenches. I've seen things you wouldn't believe, man. I know who holds the perspective I'm criticizing. And some of them are here. Now, I'm as sad as you are that these younger whippersnappers are maybe missing out on having some 98.5% reagent grade knowledge dropped on they asses, but I'm just a man. I have an ATP reserve comparable to that of your average black man. Or white man. Or purple man. I'm here to enjoy myself. Sometimes that involves talking science. But it's hard work. It's difficult to spend time putting an argument together to have Scotty play the race card card and scamper away. It's exhausting trying to explain to Gabon what a peer-reviewed source is, much less to get him to post one. Sometimes its more fun to feed into their paranoia that I just think everyone in the world is a racist. I won't be able to change their mind anyway. I think you know that sometimes taking the high road feels frustrating. Ineffective. Pointless. But you have to ask yourself: are you having fun? You can spend hours of your life explaining the minutiae of the work you love, and then have to stare at the ceiling before you sleep wondering whether addressing these racists legitimizes them. Whether it is really going to make a difference to them. Whether letting them know they kept you up for two minutes one night will just encourage them. I'll let you decide where you draw your line. But if you want to criticize my methods and motivations, then I'll, well, let you have cake.

Like I hinted at above, you and I are very likely in agreement on this.


If you continue to look at a racist as somehow different from you on a basic level then yeah you are wasting your time.


The f*ck?
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby jimboston on Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:22 am

PLAYER57832 wrote: Its supposed to measure both, but it does better at assessing one's ability to acquire information.


Memorization is not the same as Intelligence.

IQ does not attempt to measure memorization.

Some of your criticisms may be about what knowledge one has or has-not already acquired. These may be valid criticisms. That said, the test does not attempt to measure one's ability to memorize stuff (or as you pout it "aquire" new information).
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Funkyterrance on Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:18 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:If you continue to look at a racist as somehow different from you on a basic level then yeah you are wasting your time.


Neoteny wrote:The f*ck?


I am aware that I am not always perfectly clear at first, my apologies.
It appears that your view towards racists is that they are akin to some other species. A nut to be cracked, if you will. I am suggesting that if you continue to look at a racist as fundamentally different than you, you will never reach one with your "explanations".
Last edited by Funkyterrance on Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:20 pm

Army of GOD wrote:You guys are right, the ONLY thing I based my opinion on is the percent of black basketball players in the NBA.

>mfw
>mfw I have no face


Oh sorry, you also mentioned Peyton Hillis and white slot receivers.

Seriously though, did I miss something upon which you've based your opinion? All I saw in this thread was your opinion that blacks, on average, had bigger muscles supported by the fact that there are more black professional basketball players, professional running backs, and professional wide receivers.
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Re: race differences (from McDonald's thread)

Postby Funkyterrance on Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:23 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:You guys are right, the ONLY thing I based my opinion on is the percent of black basketball players in the NBA.

>mfw
>mfw I have no face


Oh sorry, you also mentioned Peyton Hillis and white slot receivers.

Seriously though, did I miss something upon which you've based your opinion? All I saw in this thread was your opinion that blacks, on average, had bigger muscles supported by the fact that there are more black professional basketball players, professional running backs, and professional wide receivers.


He's admitted to being a racist already. What do you want to do, string him up by his toenails?
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