Illegal

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Should someone be declared illegal before a trial?

Yes, absolutely
3
17%
Yes, in certain cases.
2
11%
I'm not sure
1
6%
No, but in some cases trials aren't necessary
2
11%
No- I presume innocence before the outcome
4
22%
Kittens have a right to due cuteness
6
33%
 
Total votes : 18

Re: Illegal

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:01 am

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Do you believe my position is an "extreme right wing position?"


Yeah- I owe you an apology. Sorry, that was unfair, and not what I believe. I think you hold a fairly radical right wing political position. extreme right is an unfair characterization.


So you believe that my position, which I've included below and have quoted at least twice in this thread, is a fairly radical right wing political position?

thegreekdog wrote:At some point prior to an arrest, there is a belief by the arresting agent that the person he or she is arresting is an illegal immigrant. This alleged illegal immigrant is likely placed in holding. This occurs with any other person allegedly violating the law.

In any event, due process applies to immigrants, legal and illegal, so it's kind of a moot point.
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Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:34 am

Symmetry wrote:
jimboston wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Stop whining.

Is your problem that the phrase "illegal immigrants" is applied haphazardly to people who may or may not be actual illegal immigrants?


TGD... do you actually expect to get a real answer from him?

You know he's not going to clarify his "point" because he doesn't have one.


Was that your point? Thanks for the contribution, as always.


I've stated my point... read my earlier posts.

You (as the OP) never stated your point... interesting.
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Re: Illegal

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:48 am

Three more pages, TGD. Three more pages, and Symmetry may successfully articulate whatever's going on in his gray jellies.
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Re: Illegal

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:14 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Three more pages, TGD. Three more pages, and Symmetry may successfully articulate whatever's going on in his gray jellies.


I know what he wants and I'm not providing it to him because I don't fit his broad generalization of Americans (conservative Americans to be precise). He has a problem with everyone in the US (and by everyone I mean pretty much everyone) using the term "illegal immigrants" to refer to people who have not yet been convicted of a crime. I'm not entirely sure what his point is though since I suspect the same or similar term is used in the UK, but I'm sure he has an awesome point and is just waiting for the right time to reveal its awesomeness. Alternatively, someone who fits Symmetry's gross generalization of Americans could post here and he could have his discussion with that person. Or we could keep playing this game.
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Re: Illegal

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:33 am

thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Three more pages, TGD. Three more pages, and Symmetry may successfully articulate whatever's going on in his gray jellies.


I know what he wants and I'm not providing it to him because I don't fit his broad generalization of Americans (conservative Americans to be precise). He has a problem with everyone in the US (and by everyone I mean pretty much everyone) using the term "illegal immigrants" to refer to people who have not yet been convicted of a crime. I'm not entirely sure what his point is though since I suspect the same or similar term is used in the UK, but I'm sure he has an awesome point and is just waiting for the right time to reveal its awesomeness. Alternatively, someone who fits Symmetry's gross generalization of Americans could post here and he could have his discussion with that person. Or we could keep playing this game.


I hope his point isn't that minor.

I was expecting some significant criticism against the US and how it convicts immigrants who got here illegally (or "illegal immigrants" in the commonly known sense).
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Re: Illegal

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:52 am

Fun Fact, the term 'illegal immigrant' originally had a very specific definition (of which I was unaware until now). Thanks OED:

illegal immigrant n. orig. a Jew who entered or attempted to enter Palestine without official permission during the later years of the British mandate; now used more generally.

Times 1931 May 11/1 "Illegal immigration into Palestine probably dates back to Turkish times, but it is now assuming alarming proportions."


--Andy
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Re: Illegal

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:12 am

AndyDufresne wrote:Fun Fact, the term 'illegal immigrant' originally had a very specific definition (of which I was unaware until now). Thanks OED:

illegal immigrant n. orig. a Jew who entered or attempted to enter Palestine without official permission during the later years of the British mandate; now used more generally.

Times 1931 May 11/1 "Illegal immigration into Palestine probably dates back to Turkish times, but it is now assuming alarming proportions."


--Andy


So Symmetry is saying that the Jews are behind this....


I KNEW IT!


But then again, the Turks could be behind the Jews who seem to be behind this but really aren't; therefore, the Turks are behind this.


I KNEW IT AGAIN!
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Re: Illegal

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:09 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Three more pages, TGD. Three more pages, and Symmetry may successfully articulate whatever's going on in his gray jellies.


I know what he wants and I'm not providing it to him because I don't fit his broad generalization of Americans (conservative Americans to be precise). He has a problem with everyone in the US (and by everyone I mean pretty much everyone) using the term "illegal immigrants" to refer to people who have not yet been convicted of a crime. I'm not entirely sure what his point is though since I suspect the same or similar term is used in the UK, but I'm sure he has an awesome point and is just waiting for the right time to reveal its awesomeness. Alternatively, someone who fits Symmetry's gross generalization of Americans could post here and he could have his discussion with that person. Or we could keep playing this game.


I hope his point isn't that minor.

I was expecting some significant criticism against the US and how it convicts immigrants who got here illegally (or "illegal immigrants" in the commonly known sense).


So did I. Hell, MeDeFe even provided him the support for that argument (and by support I mean one example). Maybe he'll eventually get to his point, but I really doubt it.

And wait until I tell him my stance on illegal immigration. That will really blow his view of Americans.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:00 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Three more pages, TGD. Three more pages, and Symmetry may successfully articulate whatever's going on in his gray jellies.


I know what he wants and I'm not providing it to him because I don't fit his broad generalization of Americans (conservative Americans to be precise). He has a problem with everyone in the US (and by everyone I mean pretty much everyone) using the term "illegal immigrants" to refer to people who have not yet been convicted of a crime. I'm not entirely sure what his point is though since I suspect the same or similar term is used in the UK, but I'm sure he has an awesome point and is just waiting for the right time to reveal its awesomeness. Alternatively, someone who fits Symmetry's gross generalization of Americans could post here and he could have his discussion with that person. Or we could keep playing this game.


I hope his point isn't that minor.

I was expecting some significant criticism against the US and how it convicts immigrants who got here illegally (or "illegal immigrants" in the commonly known sense).


So did I. Hell, MeDeFe even provided him the support for that argument (and by support I mean one example). Maybe he'll eventually get to his point, but I really doubt it.

And wait until I tell him my stance on illegal immigration. That will really blow his view of Americans.


I've been waiting for your view for a while now, alas, you're a bit of a tease.
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Re: Illegal

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:11 pm

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Three more pages, TGD. Three more pages, and Symmetry may successfully articulate whatever's going on in his gray jellies.


I know what he wants and I'm not providing it to him because I don't fit his broad generalization of Americans (conservative Americans to be precise). He has a problem with everyone in the US (and by everyone I mean pretty much everyone) using the term "illegal immigrants" to refer to people who have not yet been convicted of a crime. I'm not entirely sure what his point is though since I suspect the same or similar term is used in the UK, but I'm sure he has an awesome point and is just waiting for the right time to reveal its awesomeness. Alternatively, someone who fits Symmetry's gross generalization of Americans could post here and he could have his discussion with that person. Or we could keep playing this game.


I hope his point isn't that minor.

I was expecting some significant criticism against the US and how it convicts immigrants who got here illegally (or "illegal immigrants" in the commonly known sense).


So did I. Hell, MeDeFe even provided him the support for that argument (and by support I mean one example). Maybe he'll eventually get to his point, but I really doubt it.

And wait until I tell him my stance on illegal immigration. That will really blow his view of Americans.


I've been waiting for your view for a while now, alas, you're a bit of a tease.


Okay. We're done now.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:21 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
I've been waiting for your view for a while now, alas, you're a bit of a tease.


Okay. We're done now.


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Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:19 am

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:And wait until I tell him my stance on illegal immigration. That will really blow his view of Americans.


I've been waiting for your view for a while now, alas, you're a bit of a tease.


What "stance" is there to be on the subject of illegal immigration???

I'm confused... your OP wasn't asking for people's stance on illegal immigration, but rather on the due process necessary to prove a particular person is (or is not) an illegal immigrant. No?

Are you now changing your question and the whole point of the thread?

What are you saying... that there's no such thing as illegal immigration?
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:17 pm

jimboston wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:And wait until I tell him my stance on illegal immigration. That will really blow his view of Americans.


I've been waiting for your view for a while now, alas, you're a bit of a tease.


What "stance" is there to be on the subject of illegal immigration???

I'm confused... your OP wasn't asking for people's stance on illegal immigration, but rather on the due process necessary to prove a particular person is (or is not) an illegal immigrant. No?

Are you now changing your question and the whole point of the thread?

What are you saying... that there's no such thing as illegal immigration?


My OP was

Kind of a test of how far you believe in due process this one.


So, no, that wasn't what the OP was asking.

I'm up for people's takes on the issue regarding immigration. As the thread has gone the way of "illegal" immigration, what's your take on it? Should an immigrant be presumed innocent before a trial has been held?
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Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:19 pm

Symmetry wrote:I'm up for people's takes on the issue regarding immigration. As the thread has gone the way of "illegal" immigration, what's your take on it? Should an immigrant be presumed innocent before a trial has been held?


Trial or Hearing?

Based on the one example given... I think we'd need to even determine if the person was an immigrant (illegal or not) in the first place... no?

... going back to your OP... and of course referring to your title as well... since your OP isn't even a complete sentence...

I believe my rewording of your OP is an accurate summary of the question you posed... since you refuse to use complete sentences we (the readers) must interpret.

So yeah... I'm correct... thanks.
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Re: Illegal

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:35 am

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Three more pages, TGD. Three more pages, and Symmetry may successfully articulate whatever's going on in his gray jellies.


I know what he wants and I'm not providing it to him because I don't fit his broad generalization of Americans (conservative Americans to be precise). He has a problem with everyone in the US (and by everyone I mean pretty much everyone) using the term "illegal immigrants" to refer to people who have not yet been convicted of a crime. I'm not entirely sure what his point is though since I suspect the same or similar term is used in the UK, but I'm sure he has an awesome point and is just waiting for the right time to reveal its awesomeness. Alternatively, someone who fits Symmetry's gross generalization of Americans could post here and he could have his discussion with that person. Or we could keep playing this game.


I hope his point isn't that minor.

I was expecting some significant criticism against the US and how it convicts immigrants who got here illegally (or "illegal immigrants" in the commonly known sense).


So did I. Hell, MeDeFe even provided him the support for that argument (and by support I mean one example). Maybe he'll eventually get to his point, but I really doubt it.

And wait until I tell him my stance on illegal immigration. That will really blow his view of Americans.


I've been waiting for your view for a while now, alas, you're a bit of a tease.

He has given it many times before. Forgive me for iterating, but I do think you are assuming something incorrect.

Basically, he doesn't think there should be limits to immigration itself. Anyone should be able to come here, but if they cause trouble, are not able to support themselves, etc.. then "goodbye" (or to jail, if warranted, of course).

I feel similarly, though when you get down to some details on how it might be implemented, I believe he and I disagreed (but I don't think by much).
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:53 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Three more pages, TGD. Three more pages, and Symmetry may successfully articulate whatever's going on in his gray jellies.


I know what he wants and I'm not providing it to him because I don't fit his broad generalization of Americans (conservative Americans to be precise). He has a problem with everyone in the US (and by everyone I mean pretty much everyone) using the term "illegal immigrants" to refer to people who have not yet been convicted of a crime. I'm not entirely sure what his point is though since I suspect the same or similar term is used in the UK, but I'm sure he has an awesome point and is just waiting for the right time to reveal its awesomeness. Alternatively, someone who fits Symmetry's gross generalization of Americans could post here and he could have his discussion with that person. Or we could keep playing this game.


I hope his point isn't that minor.

I was expecting some significant criticism against the US and how it convicts immigrants who got here illegally (or "illegal immigrants" in the commonly known sense).


So did I. Hell, MeDeFe even provided him the support for that argument (and by support I mean one example). Maybe he'll eventually get to his point, but I really doubt it.

And wait until I tell him my stance on illegal immigration. That will really blow his view of Americans.


I've been waiting for your view for a while now, alas, you're a bit of a tease.

He has given it many times before. Forgive me for iterating, but I do think you are assuming something incorrect.

Basically, he doesn't think there should be limits to immigration itself. Anyone should be able to come here, but if they cause trouble, are not able to support themselves, etc.. then "goodbye" (or to jail, if warranted, of course).

I feel similarly, though when you get down to some details on how it might be implemented, I believe he and I disagreed (but I don't think by much).


I think the detail part is kind of how the issue relates to the thread to be fair- I understand that the thread has taken on the American aspect of the word "illegal" as a kind of slang term for undocumented immigrants, bypassing the more commonly understood use of the word.

I'm happy to discuss how the word "illegal" has been fairly, or unfairly used to describe certain immigrants. There are other threads for a broader discussion of immigration in the US though.
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Re: Illegal

Postby tzor on Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:03 pm

Symmetry wrote:I think the detail part is kind of how the issue relates to the thread to be fair- I understand that the thread has taken on the American aspect of the word "illegal" as a kind of slang term for undocumented immigrants, bypassing the more commonly understood use of the word.


I could be wrong on the exact number, but there are a number of "illegal" immigrants who are actually "documented" in that they stayed past their original documentation (visas).

Illegal is a very simple term. Anyone whose immigrant status is not in compliance with immigration law, is illegally an immigrant.

So my favorite summer parish priest, who didn't get a work visa here, but got a tourist visa, if he were to have said a Mass at my Parish (he didn't) he would have been an illegal immigrant for violating his tourist visa. He has documentation, it just would not apply to "work" situations.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:08 pm

tzor wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I think the detail part is kind of how the issue relates to the thread to be fair- I understand that the thread has taken on the American aspect of the word "illegal" as a kind of slang term for undocumented immigrants, bypassing the more commonly understood use of the word.


I could be wrong on the exact number, but there are a number of "illegal" immigrants who are actually "documented" in that they stayed past their original documentation (visas).

Illegal is a very simple term. Anyone whose immigrant status is not in compliance with immigration law, is illegally an immigrant.

So my favorite summer parish priest, who didn't get a work visa here, but got a tourist visa, if he were to have said a Mass at my Parish (he didn't) he would have been an illegal immigrant for violating his tourist visa. He has documentation, it just would not apply to "work" situations.


Thanks for the fair reply- I think you're getting to the heart of the question regarding immigrants- can a person be said to have done something illegal without due process of law, or should they be presumed innocent?

I know "presumed innocent immigrants" doesn't poll so well as a media sound bite, but I'd be interested on hearing your take.
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