Illegal

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Should someone be declared illegal before a trial?

Yes, absolutely
3
17%
Yes, in certain cases.
2
11%
I'm not sure
1
6%
No, but in some cases trials aren't necessary
2
11%
No- I presume innocence before the outcome
4
22%
Kittens have a right to due cuteness
6
33%
 
Total votes : 18

Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:53 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Three more pages, TGD. Three more pages, and Symmetry may successfully articulate whatever's going on in his gray jellies.


I know what he wants and I'm not providing it to him because I don't fit his broad generalization of Americans (conservative Americans to be precise). He has a problem with everyone in the US (and by everyone I mean pretty much everyone) using the term "illegal immigrants" to refer to people who have not yet been convicted of a crime. I'm not entirely sure what his point is though since I suspect the same or similar term is used in the UK, but I'm sure he has an awesome point and is just waiting for the right time to reveal its awesomeness. Alternatively, someone who fits Symmetry's gross generalization of Americans could post here and he could have his discussion with that person. Or we could keep playing this game.


I hope his point isn't that minor.

I was expecting some significant criticism against the US and how it convicts immigrants who got here illegally (or "illegal immigrants" in the commonly known sense).


So did I. Hell, MeDeFe even provided him the support for that argument (and by support I mean one example). Maybe he'll eventually get to his point, but I really doubt it.

And wait until I tell him my stance on illegal immigration. That will really blow his view of Americans.


I've been waiting for your view for a while now, alas, you're a bit of a tease.

He has given it many times before. Forgive me for iterating, but I do think you are assuming something incorrect.

Basically, he doesn't think there should be limits to immigration itself. Anyone should be able to come here, but if they cause trouble, are not able to support themselves, etc.. then "goodbye" (or to jail, if warranted, of course).

I feel similarly, though when you get down to some details on how it might be implemented, I believe he and I disagreed (but I don't think by much).


I think the detail part is kind of how the issue relates to the thread to be fair- I understand that the thread has taken on the American aspect of the word "illegal" as a kind of slang term for undocumented immigrants, bypassing the more commonly understood use of the word.

I'm happy to discuss how the word "illegal" has been fairly, or unfairly used to describe certain immigrants. There are other threads for a broader discussion of immigration in the US though.
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Re: Illegal

Postby tzor on Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:03 pm

Symmetry wrote:I think the detail part is kind of how the issue relates to the thread to be fair- I understand that the thread has taken on the American aspect of the word "illegal" as a kind of slang term for undocumented immigrants, bypassing the more commonly understood use of the word.


I could be wrong on the exact number, but there are a number of "illegal" immigrants who are actually "documented" in that they stayed past their original documentation (visas).

Illegal is a very simple term. Anyone whose immigrant status is not in compliance with immigration law, is illegally an immigrant.

So my favorite summer parish priest, who didn't get a work visa here, but got a tourist visa, if he were to have said a Mass at my Parish (he didn't) he would have been an illegal immigrant for violating his tourist visa. He has documentation, it just would not apply to "work" situations.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:08 pm

tzor wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I think the detail part is kind of how the issue relates to the thread to be fair- I understand that the thread has taken on the American aspect of the word "illegal" as a kind of slang term for undocumented immigrants, bypassing the more commonly understood use of the word.


I could be wrong on the exact number, but there are a number of "illegal" immigrants who are actually "documented" in that they stayed past their original documentation (visas).

Illegal is a very simple term. Anyone whose immigrant status is not in compliance with immigration law, is illegally an immigrant.

So my favorite summer parish priest, who didn't get a work visa here, but got a tourist visa, if he were to have said a Mass at my Parish (he didn't) he would have been an illegal immigrant for violating his tourist visa. He has documentation, it just would not apply to "work" situations.


Thanks for the fair reply- I think you're getting to the heart of the question regarding immigrants- can a person be said to have done something illegal without due process of law, or should they be presumed innocent?

I know "presumed innocent immigrants" doesn't poll so well as a media sound bite, but I'd be interested on hearing your take.
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