Illegal

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Should someone be declared illegal before a trial?

Yes, absolutely
3
17%
Yes, in certain cases.
2
11%
I'm not sure
1
6%
No, but in some cases trials aren't necessary
2
11%
No- I presume innocence before the outcome
4
22%
Kittens have a right to due cuteness
6
33%
 
Total votes : 18

Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:11 pm

Symmetry wrote:
jimboston wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I seem to have made a few people angry by bringing this up. There are replies in thread for people who don't go along with the idea.


What idea?

You don't seem to have one.


Says the dude with a family guy avatar.


Ad Hominem in Action!

Don't bother trying to clarify your point or anything... just attack me.
Reported to MOD.. personal attack.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:12 pm

jimboston wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
jimboston wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I seem to have made a few people angry by bringing this up. There are replies in thread for people who don't go along with the idea.


What idea?

You don't seem to have one.


Says the dude with a family guy avatar.


Ad Hominem in Action!

Don't bother trying to clarify your point or anything... just attack me.
Reported to MOD.. personal attack.


Good luck with that.
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Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:24 pm

Symmetry wrote:
jimboston wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
jimboston wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I seem to have made a few people angry by bringing this up. There are replies in thread for people who don't go along with the idea.


What idea?

You don't seem to have one.


Says the dude with a family guy avatar.


Ad Hominem in Action!

Don't bother trying to clarify your point or anything... just attack me.
Reported to MOD.. personal attack.


Good luck with that.


Again not a reply with any content.

So you agree your previous post was the definition of an Ad Hominem attack on my person?
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:29 pm

jimboston wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
jimboston wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
jimboston wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I seem to have made a few people angry by bringing this up. There are replies in thread for people who don't go along with the idea.


What idea?

You don't seem to have one.


Says the dude with a family guy avatar.


Ad Hominem in Action!

Don't bother trying to clarify your point or anything... just attack me.
Reported to MOD.. personal attack.


Good luck with that.


Again not a reply with any content.

So you agree your previous post was the definition of an Ad Hominem attack on my person?


No, both as a poster and as a fan of dictionaries.
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Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:34 pm

Symmetry wrote:No, both as a poster and as a fan of dictionaries.


You're soooooo smart. I wish I could be smart like you.

Of course, it'd be funny if your insult was actually on target or accurate in some way. Since it's not...
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:36 pm

jimboston wrote:
Symmetry wrote:No, both as a poster and as a fan of dictionaries.


You're soooooo smart. I wish I could be smart like you.

Of course, it'd be funny if your insult was actually on target or accurate in some way. Since it's not...


I guess we'll both have to deal with you being the best you you can be.
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Re: Illegal

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:39 pm

Symmetry wrote:Yeah, I guess a large part of the thread has come to be about the peculiar use of Americans to say someone is illegal without the presumption of innocence pre-trial.

The thread is was it is I suppose.


Okay. Weird reason for a thread, but okay.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:43 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Yeah, I guess a large part of the thread has come to be about the peculiar use of Americans to say someone is illegal without the presumption of innocence pre-trial.

The thread is was it is I suppose.


Okay. Weird reason for a thread, but okay.


Presumption of innocence is weird?
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Re: Illegal

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:48 pm

Let's try to revitalize this thread.

Symmetry, how do you think illegals in the US are detained and tried, Sym? Describe that process.
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Re: Illegal

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:49 pm

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Yeah, I guess a large part of the thread has come to be about the peculiar use of Americans to say someone is illegal without the presumption of innocence pre-trial.

The thread is was it is I suppose.


Okay. Weird reason for a thread, but okay.


Presumption of innocence is weird?


No, presumption of innocence is good. I'm not following your logic of going from "weird reason for a thread" to "presumption of innocence is weird."

Do you have any evidence or other background for your assertion that Americans say someone is illegal without the presumption of innocence?

Do you understand the American criminal justice system at all (not just the immigration system, anything)?
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:53 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Yeah, I guess a large part of the thread has come to be about the peculiar use of Americans to say someone is illegal without the presumption of innocence pre-trial.

The thread is was it is I suppose.


Okay. Weird reason for a thread, but okay.


Presumption of innocence is weird?


No, presumption of innocence is good. I'm not following your logic of going from "weird reason for a thread" to "presumption of innocence is weird."

Do you have any evidence or other background for your assertion that Americans say someone is illegal without the presumption of innocence?

Do you understand the American criminal justice system at all (not just the immigration system, anything)?


I would be surprised if they don't. I'm not sure I'd be quite as annoyed at someone pointing out that it's incorrect, and that presumption of innocence is important.
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Re: Illegal

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:56 pm

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Yeah, I guess a large part of the thread has come to be about the peculiar use of Americans to say someone is illegal without the presumption of innocence pre-trial.

The thread is was it is I suppose.


Okay. Weird reason for a thread, but okay.


Presumption of innocence is weird?


No, presumption of innocence is good. I'm not following your logic of going from "weird reason for a thread" to "presumption of innocence is weird."

Do you have any evidence or other background for your assertion that Americans say someone is illegal without the presumption of innocence?

Do you understand the American criminal justice system at all (not just the immigration system, anything)?


I would be surprised if they don't. I'm not sure I'd be quite as annoyed at someone pointing out that it's incorrect, and that presumption of innocence is important.


You'd be surprised if they don't? Ha... okay.

I'm not annoyed, I'm just confused.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:59 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Do you have any evidence or other background for your assertion that Americans say someone is illegal without the presumption of innocence?


I would be surprised if they don't. I'm not sure I'd be quite as annoyed at someone pointing out that it's incorrect, and that presumption of innocence is important.


You'd be surprised if they don't? Ha... okay.

I'm not annoyed, I'm just confused.


Edited.
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Re: Illegal

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:08 pm

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Do you have any evidence or other background for your assertion that Americans say someone is illegal without the presumption of innocence?


I would be surprised if they don't. I'm not sure I'd be quite as annoyed at someone pointing out that it's incorrect, and that presumption of innocence is important.


You'd be surprised if they don't? Ha... okay.

I'm not annoyed, I'm just confused.


Edited.


I'm even more confused. I'm going to report you for trolling.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:09 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Do you have any evidence or other background for your assertion that Americans say someone is illegal without the presumption of innocence?


I would be surprised if they don't. I'm not sure I'd be quite as annoyed at someone pointing out that it's incorrect, and that presumption of innocence is important.


You'd be surprised if they don't? Ha... okay.

I'm not annoyed, I'm just confused.


Edited.


I'm even more confused. I'm going to report you for trolling.


Good luck with that.
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Re: Illegal

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:53 am

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Do you have any evidence or other background for your assertion that Americans say someone is illegal without the presumption of innocence?


I would be surprised if they don't. I'm not sure I'd be quite as annoyed at someone pointing out that it's incorrect, and that presumption of innocence is important.


You'd be surprised if they don't? Ha... okay.

I'm not annoyed, I'm just confused.


Edited.


I'm even more confused. I'm going to report you for trolling.


Good luck with that.


Good point. MeDeFe's got your back.
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Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:06 am

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Do you have any evidence or other background for your assertion that Americans say someone is illegal without the presumption of innocence?


I would be surprised if they don't. I'm not sure I'd be quite as annoyed at someone pointing out that it's incorrect, and that presumption of innocence is important.


You'd be surprised if they don't? Ha... okay.

I'm not annoyed, I'm just confused.


Edited.


I'm even more confused. I'm going to report you for trolling.


GD... we should have been able to figure out by now that Symmetry is trying to fill the vacuum left by PimpDave. Yes, I agree he's doing a poor job, but let's give him an E for Effort.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:44 am

You know I can still read your posts, right?
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Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:52 pm

Symmetry wrote:You know I can still read your posts, right?


You can read?

Maybe you are like my 5yo.. you can read the words, but you lack comprehension.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:02 pm

jimboston wrote:
Symmetry wrote:You know I can still read your posts, right?


You can read?

Maybe you are like my 5yo.. you can read the words, but you lack comprehension.


You have a 5 year old? Do the parents know?
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Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:14 am

Symmetry wrote:
jimboston wrote:
Symmetry wrote:You know I can still read your posts, right?


You can read?

Maybe you are like my 5yo.. you can read the words, but you lack comprehension.


You have a 5 year old? Do the parents know?


Again Ad Hominem... do you ever reply with substance?
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Re: Illegal

Postby MeDeFe on Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:44 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Good point. MeDeFe's got your back.

I've definitely got something here, but I'm not sure what the hell it is.

Are you guys going to go back to debating about the fact that a couple hundred US citizens are deported from the USA every year (http://stateswithoutnations.blogspot.de/search/label/ICE%20deporting%20US%20citizens), and about how hard or easy it is to get ID in the USA, and how the deportation process could or should be improved?
Or should I just lock this thread?
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Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:03 am

MeDeFe wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Good point. MeDeFe's got your back.

I've definitely got something here, but I'm not sure what the hell it is.

Are you guys going to go back to debating about the fact that a couple hundred US citizens are deported from the USA every year (http://stateswithoutnations.blogspot.de/search/label/ICE%20deporting%20US%20citizens), and about how hard or easy it is to get ID in the USA, and how the deportation process could or should be improved?
Or should I just lock this thread?


1) This guy told ICE he wasn't a citizen to avoid jail. Then he files a suit against the gov't when they listen to him???

"What becomes clear in this report is that once Lyttle, who has a long, well-documented record in the criminal databases as a U.S. citizen, indicates he wants to go to Mexico ... and so agrees that he is from Mexico and tells the ICE agent at a jail where he is classified as bipolar that he wants her to set it all up.

2) Close the thread because the OP is only using it as a platform to insult people.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Gillipig on Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:48 am

Enough with the closed threads already. Do you get butthurt easily or what?
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Re: Illegal

Postby MeDeFe on Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:28 am

jimboston wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Good point. MeDeFe's got your back.

I've definitely got something here, but I'm not sure what the hell it is.

Are you guys going to go back to debating about the fact that a couple hundred US citizens are deported from the USA every year (http://stateswithoutnations.blogspot.de/search/label/ICE%20deporting%20US%20citizens), and about how hard or easy it is to get ID in the USA, and how the deportation process could or should be improved?
Or should I just lock this thread?


1) This guy told ICE he wasn't a citizen to avoid jail. Then he files a suit against the gov't when they listen to him???

"What becomes clear in this report is that once Lyttle, who has a long, well-documented record in the criminal databases as a U.S. citizen, indicates he wants to go to Mexico ... and so agrees that he is from Mexico and tells the ICE agent at a jail where he is classified as bipolar that he wants her to set it all up.

2) Close the thread because the OP is only using it as a platform to insult people.

Scroll down, there's more than one case documented. And then there's a link "Older Posts" which takes you to a second page that's as long as the first one. In all there seem to be six pages. Also: "Bipolar" as in the mental disorder, I'm sure you've heard of it.

Go on, read the rest of it. Familiarise yourself with the appeals process which can take months or years. Those are months or years during which a US citizen is held against their will by an agency that legally has no jurisdiction over US citizens, without being provided with an attorney or being allowed any of the rights which are legally granted to them.

Here's an article providing something of an overview.
http://www.thenation.com/article/thin-ice


As for the second point, for now we'll see how this develops.
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