Illegal

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Should someone be declared illegal before a trial?

Yes, absolutely
3
17%
Yes, in certain cases.
2
11%
I'm not sure
1
6%
No, but in some cases trials aren't necessary
2
11%
No- I presume innocence before the outcome
4
22%
Kittens have a right to due cuteness
6
33%
 
Total votes : 18

Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:37 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Good point. MeDeFe's got your back.

I've definitely got something here, but I'm not sure what the hell it is.

Are you guys going to go back to debating about the fact that a couple hundred US citizens are deported from the USA every year (http://stateswithoutnations.blogspot.de/search/label/ICE%20deporting%20US%20citizens), and about how hard or easy it is to get ID in the USA, and how the deportation process could or should be improved?
Or should I just lock this thread?


I'm not sure because I'm still not sure I understand what this thread is about. Is it about the presumption of innocence? Is it about the presumption of innocence with respect to deportation proceedings? Is it about deportation proceedings generally?

If there was only some way we could get Symmetry to be less obtuse...

By the way, I skimmed the blog you've posted and noticed there was very little, if any, discussion of due process or removal proceedings.


You could possibly start by posting a bit less about how obtuse I am, how I'm on your list, and other such nonsense.

What would you like me to explain?

I guess this has gone the way of illegal as describing "illegal immigrants", so it seems to me that that your questions are tied.

Are "illegal immigrants" actually illegal if they haven't received a trial judging their actions against the law? Should declaring someone to have done something illegal be part of the judicial process? Or should there be a presumption of innocence prior to a trial?


Stop whining.

Is your problem that the phrase "illegal immigrants" is applied haphazardly to people who may or may not be actual illegal immigrants?


Whoah- dude, that was your take on the topic- applying the word illegal to immigration. Don't get pissy because I accommodate your take on the thread. No need to get upset.

With regards to your application of the term illegal regarding immigrants, I would think that there are some problems, if you're asking my opinion.

I guess I'd ask you how many "illegal" immigrants there are?
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Re: Illegal

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:53 pm

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Good point. MeDeFe's got your back.

I've definitely got something here, but I'm not sure what the hell it is.

Are you guys going to go back to debating about the fact that a couple hundred US citizens are deported from the USA every year (http://stateswithoutnations.blogspot.de/search/label/ICE%20deporting%20US%20citizens), and about how hard or easy it is to get ID in the USA, and how the deportation process could or should be improved?
Or should I just lock this thread?


I'm not sure because I'm still not sure I understand what this thread is about. Is it about the presumption of innocence? Is it about the presumption of innocence with respect to deportation proceedings? Is it about deportation proceedings generally?

If there was only some way we could get Symmetry to be less obtuse...

By the way, I skimmed the blog you've posted and noticed there was very little, if any, discussion of due process or removal proceedings.


You could possibly start by posting a bit less about how obtuse I am, how I'm on your list, and other such nonsense.

What would you like me to explain?

I guess this has gone the way of illegal as describing "illegal immigrants", so it seems to me that that your questions are tied.

Are "illegal immigrants" actually illegal if they haven't received a trial judging their actions against the law? Should declaring someone to have done something illegal be part of the judicial process? Or should there be a presumption of innocence prior to a trial?


Stop whining.

Is your problem that the phrase "illegal immigrants" is applied haphazardly to people who may or may not be actual illegal immigrants?


Whoah- dude, that was your take on the topic- applying the word illegal to immigration. Don't get pissy because I accommodate your take on the thread. No need to get upset.

With regards to your application of the term illegal regarding immigrants, I would think that there are some problems, if you're asking my opinion.

I guess I'd ask you how many "illegal" immigrants there are?


Yeah, see, here's the thing. I still have no idea what your point is. I suppose you've proven the point that this discussion is pointless.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:06 pm

TGD- if you want to discuss the application of the term illegal- the topic of this thread, to your particular pet example- immigration, then do so. I've given you space to do that. I've engaged you with a few basic responses. Your response has been consistently that you don't know what my point is, as if that paralyses you to make your own points with regards to your own practical application of the word "illegal".

You seem baffled by your own own arguments.
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Re: Illegal

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:13 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Kind of a test of how far you believe in due process this one.


I don't understand the question. Are you talking about an illegal immigrant? Are you speaking of a particular case?


More of a hypothetical. Could an immigrant be presumed illegal under the law without due process, which assumes innocence?


Seems to be your "particular pet example."

And here was my response...

thegreekdog wrote:What do you mean by "presumed illegal?"

At some point prior to an arrest, there is a belief by the arresting agent that the person he or she is arresting is an illegal immigrant. This alleged illegal immigrant is likely placed in holding. This occurs with any other person allegedly violating the law.

In any event, due process applies to immigrants, legal and illegal, so it's kind of a moot point.


You did not appear to respond to this so, again, I'm not sure where you've gotten the idea that Americans presume illegality before innocence. If that's your point. Because I really don't know what your point is. I would imagine you could easily type out a point if you were interested in having a discussion.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:20 pm

Tone down the general bbsitchiness and you're likely to get a nicer response.

With regards to your point, you seem to be making an important distinction between those suspected illegal and those convicted.

Would that be a fair take to bring bring us back on an even keel?
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Re: Illegal

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:23 pm

Symmetry wrote:Tone down the general bbsitchiness and you're likely to get a nicer response.

With regards to your point, you seem to be making an important distinction between those suspected illegal and those convicted.

Would that be a fair take to bring bring us back on an even keel?


It's difficult for me to determine what you find bitchy (or bbsitchiness, whatever that means). Perhaps you could provide an example of what an appropriate post from me would be in order to illicit a nicer response from you. Although I'll hold you to that example for all time, so careful.

To get back to what may be the point (I honestly still don't know), yes, I think there is a distinction between those suspected illegal and those convicted.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:31 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Tone down the general bbsitchiness and you're likely to get a nicer response.

With regards to your point, you seem to be making an important distinction between those suspected illegal and those convicted.

Would that be a fair take to bring bring us back on an even keel?


It's difficult for me to determine what you find bitchy (or bbsitchiness, whatever that means). Perhaps you could provide an example of what an appropriate post from me would be in order to illicit a nicer response from you. Although I'll hold you to that example for all time, so careful.

To get back to what may be the point (I honestly still don't know), yes, I think there is a distinction between those suspected illegal and those convicted.


So I guess I can ask you again, how many illegal immigrants are there in your country?
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Re: Illegal

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:50 pm

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Tone down the general bbsitchiness and you're likely to get a nicer response.

With regards to your point, you seem to be making an important distinction between those suspected illegal and those convicted.

Would that be a fair take to bring bring us back on an even keel?


It's difficult for me to determine what you find bitchy (or bbsitchiness, whatever that means). Perhaps you could provide an example of what an appropriate post from me would be in order to illicit a nicer response from you. Although I'll hold you to that example for all time, so careful.

To get back to what may be the point (I honestly still don't know), yes, I think there is a distinction between those suspected illegal and those convicted.


So I guess I can ask you again, how many illegal immigrants are there in your country?


As I stated before, I have no idea.

Did you want me to give you some estimate in the millions (similar to what was done, for example, during the passage of the Affordable Care Act) so that you could make the point that we're calling people "illegal" people who have not been convicted? I can do that if it would help you make your point. Alternatively, you could just do it yourself. It's easy to find those statistics on google or bing or whatever search engine you use. Or we could just keep playing this fun game.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:57 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Tone down the general bbsitchiness and you're likely to get a nicer response.

With regards to your point, you seem to be making an important distinction between those suspected illegal and those convicted.

Would that be a fair take to bring bring us back on an even keel?


It's difficult for me to determine what you find bitchy (or bbsitchiness, whatever that means). Perhaps you could provide an example of what an appropriate post from me would be in order to illicit a nicer response from you. Although I'll hold you to that example for all time, so careful.

To get back to what may be the point (I honestly still don't know), yes, I think there is a distinction between those suspected illegal and those convicted.


So I guess I can ask you again, how many illegal immigrants are there in your country?


As I stated before, I have no idea.

Did you want me to give you some estimate in the millions (similar to what was done, for example, during the passage of the Affordable Care Act) so that you could make the point that we're calling people "illegal" people who have not been convicted? I can do that if it would help you make your point. Alternatively, you could just do it yourself. It's easy to find those statistics on google or bing or whatever search engine you use. Or we could just keep playing this fun game.


I don't get why you're "dogging" me on this- I'm not irritated that you didn't want to answer the question, or didn't know how to find out.

You're getting overly worried that i might push you to make a point that doesn't agree with your ideals? Is that what concerns you?

Because there's clearly something that concerns you about questioning the application of the word illegal.
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Re: Illegal

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:59 pm

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Tone down the general bbsitchiness and you're likely to get a nicer response.

With regards to your point, you seem to be making an important distinction between those suspected illegal and those convicted.

Would that be a fair take to bring bring us back on an even keel?


It's difficult for me to determine what you find bitchy (or bbsitchiness, whatever that means). Perhaps you could provide an example of what an appropriate post from me would be in order to illicit a nicer response from you. Although I'll hold you to that example for all time, so careful.

To get back to what may be the point (I honestly still don't know), yes, I think there is a distinction between those suspected illegal and those convicted.


So I guess I can ask you again, how many illegal immigrants are there in your country?


As I stated before, I have no idea.

Did you want me to give you some estimate in the millions (similar to what was done, for example, during the passage of the Affordable Care Act) so that you could make the point that we're calling people "illegal" people who have not been convicted? I can do that if it would help you make your point. Alternatively, you could just do it yourself. It's easy to find those statistics on google or bing or whatever search engine you use. Or we could just keep playing this fun game.


I don't get why you're "dogging" me on this- I'm not irritated that you didn't want to answer the question, or didn't know how to find out.

You're getting overly worried that i might push you to make a point that doesn't agree with your ideals? Is that what concerns you?

Because there's clearly something that concerns you about questioning the application of the word illegal.


So we're going to keep playing the fun game? Cool.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:08 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:So I guess I can ask you again, how many illegal immigrants are there in your country?


As I stated before, I have no idea.

Did you want me to give you some estimate in the millions (similar to what was done, for example, during the passage of the Affordable Care Act) so that you could make the point that we're calling people "illegal" people who have not been convicted? I can do that if it would help you make your point. Alternatively, you could just do it yourself. It's easy to find those statistics on google or bing or whatever search engine you use. Or we could just keep playing this fun game.


I don't get why you're "dogging" me on this- I'm not irritated that you didn't want to answer the question, or didn't know how to find out.

You're getting overly worried that i might push you to make a point that doesn't agree with your ideals? Is that what concerns you?

Because there's clearly something that concerns you about questioning the application of the word illegal.


So we're going to keep playing the fun game? Cool.


You're just being silly now- you want to say that the evidence is so easy to find that it's on google, but you also want to say that you have no idea what the evidence is.

Which is it TGD? You can't have it both ways, that you don't know how many "illegal" immigrants there are and that it's also so obvious how many there are that you shouldn't have to say.
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Re: Illegal

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:21 pm

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:So I guess I can ask you again, how many illegal immigrants are there in your country?


As I stated before, I have no idea.

Did you want me to give you some estimate in the millions (similar to what was done, for example, during the passage of the Affordable Care Act) so that you could make the point that we're calling people "illegal" people who have not been convicted? I can do that if it would help you make your point. Alternatively, you could just do it yourself. It's easy to find those statistics on google or bing or whatever search engine you use. Or we could just keep playing this fun game.


I don't get why you're "dogging" me on this- I'm not irritated that you didn't want to answer the question, or didn't know how to find out.

You're getting overly worried that i might push you to make a point that doesn't agree with your ideals? Is that what concerns you?

Because there's clearly something that concerns you about questioning the application of the word illegal.


So we're going to keep playing the fun game? Cool.


You're just being silly now- you want to say that the evidence is so easy to find that it's on google, but you also want to say that you have no idea what the evidence is.

Which is it TGD? You can't have it both ways, that you don't know how many "illegal" immigrants there are and that it's also so obvious how many there are that you shouldn't have to say.


The evidence that YOU are looking for is easy to find on google. What you're looking for (for the second time) is the statistics that show how many illegal immigrants are believed to be in the United States. The statistic is regularly used and I believe, in my heart of hearts, that you know how to use google and so you can find that statistic. Then you can make your point about the United States being unconcerned with the concept of "innocent until proven guilty." Since I don't hold to your view of what a typical US citizen should think, I've somehow confused you. Perhaps if you had simply made your point in the first place, instead of playing games, you could have baited someone else into having this argument.

To answer your specific question, for the third time, I do not know how many illegal immigrants are in the United States. I suspect that most of them who are still here are awaiting deportation in some sort of prison. I doubt I could find those numbers as they likely change on a daily basis. Do you want me to get Night Strike or Phatscotty in here so you can have this discusison with them?
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:29 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:So I guess I can ask you again, how many illegal immigrants are there in your country?


As I stated before, I have no idea.

Did you want me to give you some estimate in the millions (similar to what was done, for example, during the passage of the Affordable Care Act) so that you could make the point that we're calling people "illegal" people who have not been convicted? I can do that if it would help you make your point. Alternatively, you could just do it yourself. It's easy to find those statistics on google or bing or whatever search engine you use. Or we could just keep playing this fun game.


I don't get why you're "dogging" me on this- I'm not irritated that you didn't want to answer the question, or didn't know how to find out.

You're getting overly worried that i might push you to make a point that doesn't agree with your ideals? Is that what concerns you?

Because there's clearly something that concerns you about questioning the application of the word illegal.


So we're going to keep playing the fun game? Cool.


You're just being silly now- you want to say that the evidence is so easy to find that it's on google, but you also want to say that you have no idea what the evidence is.

Which is it TGD? You can't have it both ways, that you don't know how many "illegal" immigrants there are and that it's also so obvious how many there are that you shouldn't have to say.


The evidence that YOU are looking for is easy to find on google. What you're looking for (for the second time) is the statistics that show how many illegal immigrants are believed to be in the United States. The statistic is regularly used and I believe, in my heart of hearts, that you know how to use google and so you can find that statistic. Then you can make your point about the United States being unconcerned with the concept of "innocent until proven guilty." Since I don't hold to your view of what a typical US citizen should think, I've somehow confused you. Perhaps if you had simply made your point in the first place, instead of playing games, you could have baited someone else into having this argument.

To answer your specific question, for the third time, I do not know how many illegal immigrants are in the United States. I suspect that most of them who are still here are awaiting deportation in some sort of prison. I doubt I could find those numbers as they likely change on a daily basis. Do you want me to get Night Strike or Phatscotty in here so you can have this discusison with them?


They tend to be less whiny when called out on extreme right wing positions to be fair.
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Re: Illegal

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:33 pm

Do you believe my position is an "extreme right wing position?"
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:45 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Do you believe my position is an "extreme right wing position?"


Yeah- I owe you an apology. Sorry, that was unfair, and not what I believe. I think you hold a fairly radical right wing political position. extreme right is an unfair characterization.
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