FOUR MORE YEARS!

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Re: FOUR MORE YEARS!

Postby patrickaa317 on Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:52 pm

Symmetry wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
bedub1 wrote:I heard that Hitler, Moa Tse Tung, Joseph Stalin, and the Zetas Cartel in Mexico all endorse rMoney.


I don't follow the Mexican cartels much but from your comment, I must assume the Zetas are not the ones that got free guns from the Eric Holder and the Obama Administration. Is that correct?


Wasn't that a Bush administration policy? Sure it continued under Obama, who cancelled it when the news of it came out, but still, bit harsh to blame Obama for a Republican policy he ended.


Fast and Furious was launched in 2009, Bush wasn't in office at that time (a smaller scale of gun-walking was done under his watch though). Fast and Furious greatly increased the volume of gun-walking weapons and 1700 of 2000 guns that were allowed across the border between 2009-2011 are unaccounted for. To give Obama any positive credit for such a horrible policy, where both him and Bush are to blame is completely ridiculous.


I misunderestimated your attempt to derail the thread, and assumed that you were talking about the Bush era policy of selling guns to drug cartels.

Fast and Furious, was, of course an Obama era policy name for the ATF gunwalking scandal. I'd give Obama credit for shutting the thing down. Not fast or furiously enough, but shut it down he did.


Derail the thread? I was stating why one group of cartels may endorse Romney as bedub suggested. You followed and started praising Obama for a bad policy under his administration that was only pulled because there was American blood on his watch. It was a bad policy and to give one credit for it would be crazy. If you wish to respond further, please start another thread entitled "Bad Policies by the Obama Administration that I support because they were done by the Obama Administration".
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Re: FOUR MORE YEARS!

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:15 pm

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Re: FOUR MORE YEARS!

Postby Neoteny on Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:56 pm

Kenya and Pakistan seem to like Romney. Amusing.
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Re: FOUR MORE YEARS!

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:45 pm

Pakistan is sick of being bombed by invisible drones, I understand that and I think that they are right. But don't they know that Romney likes those Drones?
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Re: FOUR MORE YEARS!

Postby Nobunaga on Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:32 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:Image


... Those poll numbers are easy to believe. I don't see it as any plus for Obama, however. I'm curious as to why you, or any American, would.

... I guess it makes sense.The social democracies, with close to zero probability of being in a confrontation with the US, like the direction Obama has pulled us - more resembling their own socialist democratic systems with huge government involvement and near total dependence in all sectors. They understand it.

... China, that's obvious. We don't know yet if Romney has the balls to declare them a currency manipulator and enact those tariffs and taxes he spoke of... but if he should, that would suck for them. It's funny, the Chinese message boards after the last debate were tearing Romney up over what he said... You could smell the fear.... What's funny is the debate wasn't telecast in the PRC... I also wonder how that poll data was collected in the PRC, where folks are questioned by the police for public political discussions... The smart Chinese would walk away from a pollster. (wandering into a tangent.... pulling myself back..)

... As for all the others... I suppose they see a weaker US as less likely to involve itself in conflict generally.. ? But who here knows the mind of an Indonesian or a Kenyan... or a Panamanian?

...
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Re: FOUR MORE YEARS!

Postby Juan_Bottom on Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:21 pm

It may also be the size of our economy and our involvement in every nation on the globe.
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Re: FOUR MORE YEARS!

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:19 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:It may also be the size of our economy and our involvement in every nation on the globe.


The president has not given any indication he would reduce our involvement in every nation on the globe. I wish that was one campaign promise he would have kept.
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Re: FOUR MORE YEARS!

Postby Symmetry on Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:26 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:It may also be the size of our economy and our involvement in every nation on the globe.


The president has not given any indication he would reduce our involvement in every nation on the globe. I wish that was one campaign promise he would have kept.


You mean economically? That's kind of a weird thing to say.
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Re: FOUR MORE YEARS!

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:48 am

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:It may also be the size of our economy and our involvement in every nation on the globe.


The president has not given any indication he would reduce our involvement in every nation on the globe. I wish that was one campaign promise he would have kept.


You mean economically? That's kind of a weird thing to say.


No, I mean militarily.
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Re: FOUR MORE YEARS!

Postby Symmetry on Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:24 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:It may also be the size of our economy and our involvement in every nation on the globe.


The president has not given any indication he would reduce our involvement in every nation on the globe. I wish that was one campaign promise he would have kept.


You mean economically? That's kind of a weird thing to say.


No, I mean militarily.


Ah, then that's fair comment. Might be very tough for any president to accomplish though. I think Obama has done a pretty good job shifting toward soft power on foreign policy (not that that's his sole take on foreign policy), compared to the Bush years.

I think that Romney's strengths lie only in domestic economic policy. I can't see him as effective on any kind of international front, militarily or economically.
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Re: FOUR MORE YEARS!

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:11 pm

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:It may also be the size of our economy and our involvement in every nation on the globe.


The president has not given any indication he would reduce our involvement in every nation on the globe. I wish that was one campaign promise he would have kept.


You mean economically? That's kind of a weird thing to say.


No, I mean militarily.


Ah, then that's fair comment. Might be very tough for any president to accomplish though. I think Obama has done a pretty good job shifting toward soft power on foreign policy (not that that's his sole take on foreign policy), compared to the Bush years.

I think that Romney's strengths lie only in domestic economic policy. I can't see him as effective on any kind of international front, militarily or economically.


I don't know enough about Romney to know what he would be like dealing with foreign policy (similar to then-candidate Obama four years ago). So I don't think it's far to say he wouldn't be effective on the international front (unless you believe ever first time presidential candidate wouldn't be effective due to lack of experience). I mean, President Obama was a senator for like two years before he ran for president (that was it).

And what do you mean by "soft power on foreign policy?" I know we focus a lot on the Middle East in the U.S. but it appears he has involved us in a number of conflicts recently and has not stopped the conflicts we inherited.
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Re: FOUR MORE YEARS!

Postby Symmetry on Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:28 pm

By soft power I mean those elements of American power that don't necessarily involve military engagement. It's more nebulous than military intervention, but involves diplomacy, economic ties, and cultural expansion.

Experience wise I think Obama has the edge now- four years as commander in chief kind of trumps governor of Massachusetts and business experience at Bain Capital when it comes to foreign policy experience.

The old trope of a neophyte congressman Obama doesn't really play out. Romney is the neophyte on foreign policy now. I can understand why someone would see him as strong domestically, but abroad he's seen as weak and easily manipulated.

His recent foreign visits kind of cemented that view. In the UK he was seen as a bit of an ass, and the current Israeli government seem to see him as a pawn.

These are not the seeds of a strong foreign policy.
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Re: FOUR MORE YEARS!

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:57 pm

I know, right? He needs to continue two wars and bomb some country of brown people. Only then people will take him seriously and regard him as Diplomatic and Strong.
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Re: FOUR MORE YEARS!

Postby Juan_Bottom on Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:29 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:It may also be the size of our economy and our involvement in every nation on the globe.


The president has not given any indication he would reduce our involvement in every nation on the globe. I wish that was one campaign promise he would have kept.


I meant that globally, people would rather have Obama running the world's largest military & economy than Romney.
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Re: FOUR MORE YEARS!

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:07 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:It may also be the size of our economy and our involvement in every nation on the globe.


The president has not given any indication he would reduce our involvement in every nation on the globe. I wish that was one campaign promise he would have kept.


I meant that globally, people would rather have Obama running the world's largest military & economy than Romney.


I'm not so sure there is that big a difference.
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Re: FOUR MORE YEARS!

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:10 pm

Symmetry wrote:By soft power I mean those elements of American power that don't necessarily involve military engagement. It's more nebulous than military intervention, but involves diplomacy, economic ties, and cultural expansion.

Experience wise I think Obama has the edge now- four years as commander in chief kind of trumps governor of Massachusetts and business experience at Bain Capital when it comes to foreign policy experience.

The old trope of a neophyte congressman Obama doesn't really play out. Romney is the neophyte on foreign policy now. I can understand why someone would see him as strong domestically, but abroad he's seen as weak and easily manipulated.

His recent foreign visits kind of cemented that view. In the UK he was seen as a bit of an ass, and the current Israeli government seem to see him as a pawn.

These are not the seeds of a strong foreign policy.


Well, yeah (on Obama vs. Romney foreign policy now). I would trust Obama more than Romney with foreign policy, but only if there was some difference between Obama foreign policy and Bush foreign policy. Since there isn't, I don't.

As for soft power, I can't agree. The last four years have seen the continued the prosecution of two wars without any de-escalation. Additionally, President Obama ordered strikes on other countries in the Middle East.

I tend to think, however, that a President McCain would have done more than that; but soft diplomacy is not the phrase I would use for President Obama.
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Re: FOUR MORE YEARS!

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:14 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:It may also be the size of our economy and our involvement in every nation on the globe.


The president has not given any indication he would reduce our involvement in every nation on the globe. I wish that was one campaign promise he would have kept.


I meant that globally, people would rather have Obama running the world's largest military & economy than Romney.


I'm not so sure there is that big a difference.


Agreed. Those who set the general trajectory of the US military are the heads of the Pentagon (Dept of Defense), State Dept, and to a smaller degree the intelligence agencies and the FBI. Each president is usually uninformed, so they pick a National Security Council (NSC) of people they generally agree with (for whatever logical and arbitrary reasons). Then those former head honchos (DoD, etc.) inform the NSC on the limits of what can or can't be done (which of course can be cherry-picked). (for the sake of brevity, I'll end here).

In other words, some people like Sym and JB overestimate the US president's capability to control the US military. This isn't suprising though. Wherever someone sees order of some sort, they're bound to attribute it to one person or central planner (instead of attributing it to the interactions of individuals within organizations whose actions lead to intentional/planned and unintentional/unplanned order).

To a lesser extent, it's like saying that the GDP increased by 3%; therefore, president X is awesome cuz he did it all.
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Re: FOUR MORE YEARS!

Postby Symmetry on Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:21 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:By soft power I mean those elements of American power that don't necessarily involve military engagement. It's more nebulous than military intervention, but involves diplomacy, economic ties, and cultural expansion.

Experience wise I think Obama has the edge now- four years as commander in chief kind of trumps governor of Massachusetts and business experience at Bain Capital when it comes to foreign policy experience.

The old trope of a neophyte congressman Obama doesn't really play out. Romney is the neophyte on foreign policy now. I can understand why someone would see him as strong domestically, but abroad he's seen as weak and easily manipulated.

His recent foreign visits kind of cemented that view. In the UK he was seen as a bit of an ass, and the current Israeli government seem to see him as a pawn.

These are not the seeds of a strong foreign policy.


Well, yeah (on Obama vs. Romney foreign policy now). I would trust Obama more than Romney with foreign policy, but only if there was some difference between Obama foreign policy and Bush foreign policy. Since there isn't, I don't.

As for soft power, I can't agree. The last four years have seen the continued the prosecution of two wars without any de-escalation. Additionally, President Obama ordered strikes on other countries in the Middle East.

I tend to think, however, that a President McCain would have done more than that; but soft diplomacy is not the phrase I would use for President Obama.


I think the dichotomy you need to be looking at is Obama vs the Bush era for how foreign nations view Obama. You're right to say that Obama hasn't rejected hard power, but he's projected soft power far more than the 8 years of foreign policy before him.

Bush Republicanism left a very bitter taste in the mouths of most foreign countries, and while Obama hasn't lived up to his promises, he's still seen as better than a return to the Republicans.
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Re: FOUR MORE YEARS!

Postby jay_a2j on Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:07 am

UNINSTALLING OBAMA.....……………. █████████████▒▒▒ 90% complete.
THE DEBATE IS OVER...
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Re: FOUR MORE YEARS!

Postby stahrgazer on Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:26 am

Symmetry wrote:I think that Romney's strengths lie only in domestic economic policy. I can't see him as effective on any kind of international front, militarily or economically.


Romney's strengths don't even lie there, if you really peruse his record. He and a few of his Bain buddies made hundreds of millions, but most of the companies they made their money from got stuck with the bill and ended up bankrupting, costing tens of thousands of US jobs spread over a few different companies.

He claims credit for 'balancing the budget' for the Olympics, right? Know how he did it? He managed to convince the Federal Government to give them the money... then spent alot more than the predecessors of that Olympic committee had planned to spend.

So, he was really good at borrowing... but isn't that what so many people accuse Obama of being too good at? Even to the point of accusing Obama for borrowing stuff Bush set up and left Obama with the blame and us with the bill (hmm much like Romney did with those businesses his Bain Capital took such interests in.)

He may or may not have been a good Governor of Massechusetts. He installed a state-wide mandatory health insurance requirement (the model for the Affordable Care Act that many call Obamacare) but from everything he says, he'll repeal it for the nation, which means one of his only "claims to fame" is something he won't go for as President. Heck, he won't even continue to go for it for Seniors - his idea of Medicare is give them a 1-time voucher and let them fend for themselves (unless you're a baby-boomer large-voting-voice 55 or older Senior).

Another "claim to fame" Romney has is ensuring that anyone who graduates high school with certain grades get tuition-free college, but that's another thing he will cut from the federal levels.

In other words, he's done a lot of damage to the little guy and small businesses that few will really talk about - he won't. No details. Those few things he's "praised" for in his state, thus, can be claimed to be his good ideas, are ideas he's rejecting for the Nation after all. And it's curious that he's not carrying the state he was supposedly such a good governor of; Massechusetts residents are mainly saying: OBAMA, FOUR MORE YEARS!
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