WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of money?

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderators: Global Moderators, Community Team

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of money?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:20 am

First, note that it is the love of money, not money itself that is described.
Also, I am not questioning or wanting to debate the source, mostly the Bible (though I am sure it is found in other texts). We have a lot of threads about "the Bible is hoakum/the Bible is fundamental truth" -- I just want to talk about the idea itself, becaue it has become
something of a fundament of thought in our society.

Why would such a pronouncement be made? What happens when one loves money that might turn a person evil? What would the evidence of it be? What types of decisions? How does our society today differ... or does it?
Corporal 1st Class PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2580
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:27 am

I would think that a love of money is just as much a cause of evil as like, say, a love of religion. Or a love of anything, really.
Image
saxitoxin wrote:This is the Platinum Lounge, you POS. People should be able to enjoy a surprise dick pic now and then.
User avatar
Cook Army of GOD
 
Posts: 5804
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:30 pm
Location: Over the river and through the woods
Medals: 26
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (2)
Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (2)
Clan Achievement (2) Tournament Contribution (1) General Contribution (1)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:32 am

Army of GOD wrote:I would think that a love of money is just as much a cause of evil as like, say, a love of religion. Or a love of anything, really.


I disagree as money has no intrinsic value. Many other things do.
User avatar
Colonel Funkyterrance
 
Posts: 1929
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:52 pm
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Medals: 22
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (3) General Contribution (1)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:36 am

Army of GOD wrote:I would think that a love of money is just as much a cause of evil as like, say, a love of religion. Or a love of anything, really.

So you are saying that strong feelings about anything are the roots of evil?
Funkyterrance wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:I would think that a love of money is just as much a cause of evil as like, say, a love of religion. Or a love of anything, really.


I disagree as money has no intrinsic value. Many other things do.

Not sure why this is significant to the question? That is, are you saying that money is just not the root of evil or making another statement?

Interesting, either way.. just not sure what you are trying to say.
Corporal 1st Class PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2580
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:39 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:I would think that a love of money is just as much a cause of evil as like, say, a love of religion. Or a love of anything, really.

So you are saying that strong feelings about anything are the roots of evil?


Pretty much.

And what does money having no intrinsic value have to do with anything?
Image
saxitoxin wrote:This is the Platinum Lounge, you POS. People should be able to enjoy a surprise dick pic now and then.
User avatar
Cook Army of GOD
 
Posts: 5804
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:30 pm
Location: Over the river and through the woods
Medals: 26
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (2)
Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (2)
Clan Achievement (2) Tournament Contribution (1) General Contribution (1)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:40 am

Army of GOD wrote:
And what does money having no intrinsic value have to do with anything?


You serious?
User avatar
Colonel Funkyterrance
 
Posts: 1929
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:52 pm
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Medals: 22
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (3) General Contribution (1)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:41 am

My feeling is that money is used to purchase things, mostly immediate needs and wants. It allows you to pursue immediate desires instead of looking more long term. It can hide impacts of ills you do in that way.

You buy a drink, feel good.. and ignore that you have to drive home and that the trip might be dangerous. Or you say " well.. I will just sleep with this guy/gal this one night, because I want xyz".. and ignore that you might get pregnant or get a disease or any other impact.

Also, its a subtlety, but again, its not money itself, but the love of money that is the ill. Money is just a means of transferring value. Easier to carry a pocket of money (or debit card, in today's world) than bags of wheat. That's practical, nothing inherently wrong.

BUT... if your goal becomes the pursuit of money, in itself, as opposed to achieving some goal that requires money, then a different dynamic enters. You no longer care as much about the results -- either what happens to get that money or what you will do with it. OR, maybe its just that the "love of money" is hiding a love of the power and immediate gratification that having money can provide?
Last edited by PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Corporal 1st Class PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2580
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:42 am

Funkyterrance wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:
And what does money having no intrinsic value have to do with anything?


You serious?


Image
Image
saxitoxin wrote:This is the Platinum Lounge, you POS. People should be able to enjoy a surprise dick pic now and then.
User avatar
Cook Army of GOD
 
Posts: 5804
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:30 pm
Location: Over the river and through the woods
Medals: 26
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (2)
Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (2)
Clan Achievement (2) Tournament Contribution (1) General Contribution (1)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby GreecePwns on Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:58 am



Ain't nuttin' more important than the mula.
Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.

Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.
User avatar
Corporal GreecePwns
 
Posts: 2654
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:19 pm
Location: Lawn Guy Lint
Medals: 10
Standard Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1) Assassin Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1)
Speed Achievement (1) Tournament Contribution (3)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:45 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:My feeling is that money is used to purchase things, mostly immediate needs and wants. It allows you to pursue immediate desires instead of looking more long term. It can hide impacts of ills you do in that way.


Money allows you to do both...
(long-term and short-term).


So, it's not money, or the love of money, that's the problem here. The 'problem' which you envision is having a high time preference (i.e. "I want it, and I want it now"), which is not in all cases a problem. Regarding the love of money, it doesn't matter if the thing wanted was money to buy X, Y, and Z. It could've been potatoes, which would be exchanged for X, Y, and Z in some barter economy.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:49 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:My feeling is that money is used to purchase things, mostly immediate needs and wants. It allows you to pursue immediate desires instead of looking more long term. It can hide impacts of ills you do in that way.


Money allows you to do both...
(long-term and short-term).


So, it's not money, or the love of money, that's the problem here. The 'problem' which you envision is having a high time preference (i.e. "I want it, and I want it now"), which is not in all cases a problem. Regarding the love of money, it doesn't matter if the thing wanted was money to buy X, Y, and Z. It could've been potatoes, which would be exchanged for X, Y, and Z in some barter economy.

My point was that money makes getting what you want NOW possible.

If you have to go out and raise the food you want, or make some product to trade, then it takes a lot more time.
Corporal 1st Class PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2580
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:55 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:My feeling is that money is used to purchase things, mostly immediate needs and wants. It allows you to pursue immediate desires instead of looking more long term. It can hide impacts of ills you do in that way.


Money allows you to do both...
(long-term and short-term).


So, it's not money, or the love of money, that's the problem here. The 'problem' which you envision is having a high time preference (i.e. "I want it, and I want it now"), which is not in all cases a problem. Regarding the love of money, it doesn't matter if the thing wanted was money to buy X, Y, and Z. It could've been potatoes, which would be exchanged for X, Y, and Z in some barter economy.

My point was that money makes getting what you want NOW possible.

If you have to go out and raise the food you want, or make some product to trade, then it takes a lot more time.


Sure, money reduces transaction costs--but so do credit cards, and so do cars (reduced time to get to place A to buy X), so instead of blaming money, why not blame cars, banks, etc.?
(because it's not about money, it's about having a high time preference).

And your second sentence isn't necessarily true. You could be some farmer who gets paid by the day in potatoes, which you then trade for whatever good you want...
(hell, you could even have potatoes on a credit card, and transfer money that way).

Sorry, but the criticism against money itself--or "the love of money"--isn't holding up.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby tzor on Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:00 pm

I'll keep this simple, as I have to go to a NaNaWriMo kickoff meeting in an hour and it's about an hour away.

First we need to get word definitions right. Love is a highly fungable word. We can "love" chocolate. We can also obsess over chocolate.

I have the feeling that it is the later. Money can be considered the universal medium to acquire property; it's highly fungable as you can buy all sorts of property with money,

Thus the obesssion with money, the ability to acquire things on demand, leads ones towards the self at the exclusion of others. Thus evil, the ability to hurt others for personal gain, in part is driven by the biggest medium of personal gain, money.

Does that make sense?
Image
User avatar
Corporal tzor
Media Volunteer
Media Volunteer
 
Posts: 599
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:43 pm
Location: Long Island, NY, USA
Medals: 9
Standard Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (3)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:22 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:My feeling is that money is used to purchase things, mostly immediate needs and wants. It allows you to pursue immediate desires instead of looking more long term. It can hide impacts of ills you do in that way.


Money allows you to do both...
(long-term and short-term).


So, it's not money, or the love of money, that's the problem here. The 'problem' which you envision is having a high time preference (i.e. "I want it, and I want it now"), which is not in all cases a problem. Regarding the love of money, it doesn't matter if the thing wanted was money to buy X, Y, and Z. It could've been potatoes, which would be exchanged for X, Y, and Z in some barter economy.

My point was that money makes getting what you want NOW possible.

If you have to go out and raise the food you want, or make some product to trade, then it takes a lot more time.


Sure, money reduces transaction costs--but so do credit cards, and so do cars (reduced time to get to place A to buy X), so instead of blaming money, why not blame cars, banks, etc.?
(because it's not about money, it's about having a high time preference).
None of those were available at the time this was written down.
Also, credit, etc are really just different types of money.

BigBallinStalin wrote: And your second sentence isn't necessarily true. You could be some farmer who gets paid by the day in potatoes, which you then trade for whatever good you want...
(hell, you could even have potatoes on a credit card, and transfer money that way).
IF you have already taken the time to grow the potatoes. Money gained through trade of goods is generally quicker -- the time of transport. Dependent generally upon producers. Today, though a lot of money is not directly linked to any product or service, its just money to those acquiring it.

BigBallinStalin wrote: Sorry, but the criticism against money itself--or "the love of money"--isn't holding up.
I am talking about a famous saying and why it has for so long been held in regard.
I am not criticizing money, nor is the saying.
If you don't think the saying is true, that is a valid opinion, of course. However, you are acting as if this were my own personal saying and a recent one at that, and it isn't.
Corporal 1st Class PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2580
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:26 pm

tzor wrote:I'll keep this simple, as I have to go to a NaNaWriMo kickoff meeting in an hour and it's about an hour away.

First we need to get word definitions right. Love is a highly fungable word. We can "love" chocolate. We can also obsess over chocolate.

I have the feeling that it is the later. Money can be considered the universal medium to acquire property; it's highly fungable as you can buy all sorts of property with money,

Thus the obesssion with money, the ability to acquire things on demand, leads ones towards the self at the exclusion of others. Thus evil, the ability to hurt others for personal gain, in part is driven by the biggest medium of personal gain, money.

Does that make sense?

Yes, and Thank you. I tend to agree with you on the analysis, but beyond that, I appreciate your answering/discussing the question itself.

Do you think this is actually a true fear? or is it something that maybe was a fear and is not now? (and I realize you cannot answer right now)
Corporal 1st Class PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2580
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby chang50 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:41 pm

Like most old sayings this one doesn't bear much scrutiny,there is plenty of evil in the world that has no apparent connection to the love of money,eg serial murderers who kill for pleasure.Obviously being obsessed with money and what this leads to is not good..
User avatar
Captain chang50
 
Posts: 652
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:54 am
Location: pattaya,thailand
Medals: 14
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Polymorphic Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (1) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:09 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:My feeling is that money is used to purchase things, mostly immediate needs and wants. It allows you to pursue immediate desires instead of looking more long term. It can hide impacts of ills you do in that way.


Money allows you to do both...
(long-term and short-term).


So, it's not money, or the love of money, that's the problem here. The 'problem' which you envision is having a high time preference (i.e. "I want it, and I want it now"), which is not in all cases a problem. Regarding the love of money, it doesn't matter if the thing wanted was money to buy X, Y, and Z. It could've been potatoes, which would be exchanged for X, Y, and Z in some barter economy.

My point was that money makes getting what you want NOW possible.

If you have to go out and raise the food you want, or make some product to trade, then it takes a lot more time.


Sure, money reduces transaction costs--but so do credit cards, and so do cars (reduced time to get to place A to buy X), so instead of blaming money, why not blame cars, banks, etc.?
(because it's not about money, it's about having a high time preference).
None of those were available at the time this was written down.
Also, credit, etc are really just different types of money.


Ah, so you're talking about the "money is the root of all evil" idea from the Age before Credit, which was... 800+ years ago, since credit has been around that long (and probably before). "But what about banks?" Venice, roughly 400 years ago. "What about credit cards"? Oh okay, so this idea against money only applies to time before credit cards, but then you run into the centuries-old bank and credit problem.

Either way, it's evident that you're (or whoever you want to shift this to) is complaining about high time preference--which they mistake for "love of money."

Money is a medium of exchange; that's all it is. It can be exchanged in the form of credit and debits, or as cash money, or as gold, silk cords, fancy beads, etc.

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote: And your second sentence isn't necessarily true. You could be some farmer who gets paid by the day in potatoes, which you then trade for whatever good you want...
(hell, you could even have potatoes on a credit card, and transfer money that way).
IF you have already taken the time to grow the potatoes. Money gained through trade of goods is generally quicker -- the time of transport. Dependent generally upon producers. Today, though a lot of money is not directly linked to any product or service, its just money to those acquiring it.


But you're still missing the point. Your complaint against money/love of money and "you can get X NOW" is about transaction costs and time preference, and not about money itself. I've already explained this.


PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote: Sorry, but the criticism against money itself--or "the love of money"--isn't holding up.
I am talking about a famous saying and why it has for so long been held in regard.
I am not criticizing money, nor is the saying.
If you don't think the saying is true, that is a valid opinion, of course. However, you are acting as if this were my own personal saying and a recent one at that, and it isn't.


So, whenever you bring in any defense, it's not at all yours but from the idea? I find that unlikely unless you provide some source.

Finally,

1. Money allows for long-term spending and short-term spending, so you were completely wrong when you said, "It allows you to pursue immediate desires instead of looking more long term."

Why were you wrong? Because you're mixing up money with high time preference.

2. The following is wrong too: "My point* was that money makes getting what you want NOW possible," but wait a minute! banks, credit, credit cards, cars, higher productivity (thus lower prices), etc., also "make getting what you want NOW possible"; therefore, it is not only money which causes this (note how you ignore my point about cars and how that reduces transaction costs).

3. Shifting to "Oh, well, I'm talking about the "love of money = evil" idea when it came out," is silly because many of the above institutions have been around for centuries, and furthermore...

*...it's your point, and not the idea's? But just now, you said, "you are acting as if this were my own personal saying and a recent one at that, and it isn't." Obviously, you're contradicting yourself, and we have not been only discussing the "money is evil" saying, but also your own defense of it.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:20 pm

tzor wrote:I'll keep this simple, as I have to go to a NaNaWriMo kickoff meeting in an hour and it's about an hour away.

First we need to get word definitions right. Love is a highly fungable word. We can "love" chocolate. We can also obsess over chocolate.

I have the feeling that it is the later. Money can be considered the universal medium to acquire property; it's highly fungable as you can buy all sorts of property with money,

Thus the obesssion with money, the ability to acquire things on demand, leads ones towards the self at the exclusion of others. Thus evil, the ability to hurt others for personal gain, in part is driven by the biggest medium of personal gain, money.

Does that make sense?


But that's completely wrong. If you demand something with money, it doesn't follow that it "leads ones towards the self at the exclusion of others" because obviously you could buy something for you and others. And even if you didn't buy anything for anyone else, the voluntary exchange involving money is mutually beneficial ex-ante since both parties of the exchange value the exchange of goods more so than not exchanging the goods... There's nothing evil with money or any medium of exchange--even when you pursue your own private interest.

What matters is context. Evil is engaging in a voluntary exchange with a hitman to murder someone, but this is completely different from saying, "Money is the root of all evil" or " evil = ability to hurt others for personal gain, which was driven by money." Besides, money does not 'drive personal gain' because that's false anthropomorphism; money does not act or decide. If anyone is to blame, you have to examine the person's value judgements--instead of blaming the medium of exchange.

The "money is the root of all evil" or "love of money is evil" is just an ignorant saying.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:23 pm

chang50 wrote:Like most old sayings this one doesn't bear much scrutiny,there is plenty of evil in the world that has no apparent connection to the love of money,eg serial murderers who kill for pleasure.Obviously being obsessed with money and what this leads to is not good..


How about obsessing over money in order to increase the revenue of a reputable charity?

That's somehow not good?

Like I said, it's not about money, or the obsession of money. It depends on one's purpose/value judgements--and definitely not money itself, or the pursuit/love of money.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:42 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:My feeling is that money is used to purchase things, mostly immediate needs and wants. It allows you to pursue immediate desires instead of looking more long term. It can hide impacts of ills you do in that way.


Money allows you to do both...
(long-term and short-term).


So, it's not money, or the love of money, that's the problem here. The 'problem' which you envision is having a high time preference (i.e. "I want it, and I want it now"), which is not in all cases a problem. Regarding the love of money, it doesn't matter if the thing wanted was money to buy X, Y, and Z. It could've been potatoes, which would be exchanged for X, Y, and Z in some barter economy.

My point was that money makes getting what you want NOW possible.

If you have to go out and raise the food you want, or make some product to trade, then it takes a lot more time.


Sure, money reduces transaction costs--but so do credit cards, and so do cars (reduced time to get to place A to buy X), so instead of blaming money, why not blame cars, banks, etc.?
(because it's not about money, it's about having a high time preference).
None of those were available at the time this was written down.
Also, credit, etc are really just different types of money.


Ah, so you're talking about the "money is the root of all evil" idea from the Age before Credit, which was... 800+ years ago, since credit has been around that long (and probably before). "But what about banks?" Venice, roughly 400 years ago. "What about credit cards"? Oh okay, so this idea against money only applies to time before credit cards, but then you run into the centuries-old bank and credit problem.

Either way, it's evident that you're (or whoever you want to shift this to) is complaining about high time preference--which they mistake for "love of money."

Money is a medium of exchange; that's all it is. It can be exchanged in the form of credit and debits, or as cash money, or as gold, silk cords, fancy beads, etc.

That last bit is the point I was making. You pointed out credit, etc as counter points to what I said of money. I simply said that those are included in the term "money". I was not arguing your point. I was saying it was irrelevant to the discussion.

BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote: And your second sentence isn't necessarily true. You could be some farmer who gets paid by the day in potatoes, which you then trade for whatever good you want...
(hell, you could even have potatoes on a credit card, and transfer money that way).
IF you have already taken the time to grow the potatoes. Money gained through trade of goods is generally quicker -- the time of transport. Dependent generally upon producers. Today, though a lot of money is not directly linked to any product or service, its just money to those acquiring it.


But you're still missing the point. Your complaint against money/love of money and "you can get X NOW" is about transaction costs and time preference, and not about money itself. I've already explained this.

Except my argument is that money IS the cost/tiem preference. That we get things even faster today is irrelevant. Without money, you could not have that efficient system. As such, in and of itself it is not a problem.. merely and expeident.

BUT, when you move from simply having money and liking the things it can get you to simply liking the acquisition of the money itself, that is the issue. Tzor put it pretty well, I thought.

Its the difference between wanting a new car, knowing you need to get the money to have that car and just wanting money.. so that whenever a new car comes that you want you can just have it. Its a subtle, but important difference. The time frame is irrelevant, teh difference is in the point of desire.

BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote: Sorry, but the criticism against money itself--or "the love of money"--isn't holding up.
I am talking about a famous saying and why it has for so long been held in regard.
I am not criticizing money, nor is the saying.
If you don't think the saying is true, that is a valid opinion, of course. However, you are acting as if this were my own personal saying and a recent one at that, and it isn't.


So, whenever you bring in any defense, it's not at all yours but from the idea? I find that unlikely unless you provide some source.
LOL
Now you are just trolling. Even if you claim ignorance of the saying, I did cite the source (The Bible, though I noted that the saying was likely found elsewhere, too).

You initally did not deal with the actual question, instead tried to nitpick about credit cards somehow being different from money (although in the next post you did bring up a real point about time frame.. I disagreed, but it was a real point).

And now are back to your standard "I'll just attack and not bother to discuss anything".
BigBallinStalin wrote:1. Money allows for long-term spending and short-term spending, so you were completely wrong when you said, "It allows you to pursue immediate desires instead of looking more long term."

Why were you wrong? Because you're mixing up money with high time preference.

2. The following is wrong too: "My point* was that money makes getting what you want NOW possible," but wait a minute! banks, credit, credit cards, cars, higher productivity (thus lower prices), etc., also "make getting what you want NOW possible"; therefore, it is not only money which causes this (note how you ignore my point about cars and how that reduces transaction costs).

3. Shifting to "Oh, well, I'm talking about the "love of money = evil" idea when it came out," is silly because many of the above institutions have been around for centuries, and furthermore...

*...it's your point, and not the idea's? But just now, you said, "you are acting as if this were my own personal saying and a recent one at that, and it isn't." Obviously, you're contradicting yourself, and we have not been only discussing the "money is evil" saying, but also your own defense of it.

When you want to discuss what I actually posted.. fine. If you want to just troll.. I don't have the time to bother right now.
Last edited by PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Corporal 1st Class PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2580
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:45 pm

Haha, I even quoted you on what you actually said, calmly addressed it, and somehow that's trolling.

Player, what is money?

what is time preference?

and what is transaction cost?

I ask because you've been using these ideas, but you don't at all understand what you're saying.

E.g.
"Except my argument is that money IS the cost/tiem preference. That we get things even faster today is irrelevant."
(Clearly, your argument has not asserted that, and it's impossible for transaction cost to also be time preference--if that's what you meant by "cost/tiem preference." And if "we get things even faster today is irrelevant," then why even bring it up? Furthermore, it is not irrelevant because time preference and transaction cost are relevant, as I've already explained, and as you seem to be also arguing in favor of--or not; it depends on the time of day, I guess.)
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:55 pm

as always, simple answer...

because it makes you do things you don't want to do or know you shouldn't do
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
User avatar
Major Phatscotty
SoC Training Adviser
 
Posts: 2323
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:50 pm
Medals: 94
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (4) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (4) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (3)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (3) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (2) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (5)
General Achievement (2) Clan Achievement (10) Training Achievement (9) Challenge Achievement (1) Tournament Contribution (13)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:55 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Haha, I even quoted you on what you actually said, calmly addressed it, and somehow that's trolling.

Player, what is money?

what is time preference?

and what is transaction cost?

I ask because you've been using these ideas, but you don't seem to understand what you're saying.

If you don't understand what money is, then try reading some basic economic blogs.

If you want to discuss the Biblical saying.. then change your discussion to that topic.

It seems like you might have a point you wish to discuss, beyond trolling. However, it is too intermixed with your desire to troll to make an effective and valid argument.


Also.. my argument (and Tzor's for that matter) was that money allowing for the shortened transaction and transport costs is part of why love of money leads to evil. I have never said it did not do those things. Whether today or yesterday, Gold bars or a bank card.. is irrelevant. Its all money, it all operates the same basic way.
Corporal 1st Class PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2580
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:55 pm

Phatscotty wrote:as always, simple answer...

because it makes you do things you don't want to do or know you shouldn't do

A good answer! Thank you.
Corporal 1st Class PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2580
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Re: WHY is it said that the root of all evil is a love of mo

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:58 pm

I just got paid today,
Got me a pocket full of change.
Said, I just got paid today,
Got me a pocket full of change.
If you believe like workin' hard all day,
Just step in my shoes and take my pay.

I was born my papa's son,
When I hit the ground I was on the run.
I had one glad hand and the other behind.
You can have yours, just give me mine.
When the hound dog barkin' in the black of the night,
Stick my hand in my pocket, everything's all right.

I just got paid today,
Got me a pocket full of change.
Said, black sheep, black, do you got some wool?
Yes, I do, man, my bag is full.
It's the root of evil and you know the rest
But it's way ahead of what's second best.

ImageEight-year olds, Dude.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class TA1LGUNN3R
 
Posts: 579
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:52 am
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue
Medals: 5
Standard Achievement (1) Assassin Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1) General Achievement (1)

Next

Return to Babble-On Five

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: TeeGee

Login