Gaza-Israel Ceasefire: Prison Conditions on Gaza Lifted

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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:46 am

saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:T
Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:Accepting the notion that "Israel has a right to exist" is an affirmation that the seizure of Palestinian land without compensation was a just and legal act.

Israel will earn its right to exist when it pays the $200 billion it owes to Palestinian property owners. Until that happens, though, Palestinians have a legal right to attempt to evict squatters just like any other property owner.

(In principal, I think Germany and Britain should probably be required to split the costs of compensation with Israel.)


what about the war Israel won in 67?


The Palestinian holocaust happened in 1947.


Ugh, I knew I shouldnt have added the year. Which year was the 7 day war?


No, you were right. Israel staged a sneak attack against Egypt and Syria in 1967.


Yeah, I have to believe that if Israel lost the war, and ceased to exist in 67, then I would accept the history that xyz won the war, and that's the way it is.
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:57 am

Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:T
Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:Accepting the notion that "Israel has a right to exist" is an affirmation that the seizure of Palestinian land without compensation was a just and legal act.

Israel will earn its right to exist when it pays the $200 billion it owes to Palestinian property owners. Until that happens, though, Palestinians have a legal right to attempt to evict squatters just like any other property owner.

(In principal, I think Germany and Britain should probably be required to split the costs of compensation with Israel.)


what about the war Israel won in 67?


The Palestinian holocaust happened in 1947.


Ugh, I knew I shouldnt have added the year. Which year was the 7 day war?


No, you were right. Israel staged a sneak attack against Egypt and Syria in 1967.


Yeah, I have to believe that if Israel lost the war, and ceased to exist in 67, then I would accept the history that xyz won the war, and that's the way it is.


Property claims are not decided in gladitorial contests. They are decided by neutral arbiters dispassionately applying an objective code of laws.

Israel owes several hundred thousand Palestinian homeowners and their heirs $200 billion for stealing their houses in 1947. Until Israel pays, it is subject to unlimited eviction efforts. Because the squatter in this case, Israel, is well armed, these eviction efforts may involve the use of Grad rockets and other heavy armaments. Israel can choose to end these eviction efforts anytime it wants by paying its legal debts instead of playing the role of the deadbeat food stamp mom of the Levant.
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby kentington on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:02 am

saxitoxin wrote:Property claims are not decided in gladitorial contests. They are decided by neutral arbiters dispassionately applying an objective code of laws.


I don't think there are any truly neutral arbiters left. Someone will always have something to gain from a decision, one way or the other.
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:03 am

idk, I think the war of 67 was pretty legitimate as the causes go. I admit the middle east situation is not my specialty, and that I am about 25-35% sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. But there is so much on the line, and peace is so far off, and war is still the last resort most physical action that can be taken when all else fails.

Do you have any "unbiased" links that can provide more information on those requests for 200 billion dollars, and any responses in the past? Have any concessions been made by Israel? I know they gave back a lot of land over the years, even though they won it in a war....
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:28 am

saxitoxin wrote:Property claims are not decided in gladitorial contests. They are decided by neutral arbiters dispassionately applying an objective code of laws.

If only that were true.

Sadly, the opposite is usually the case. Just sayin'.
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:33 am

Phatscotty wrote:idk, I think the war of 67 was pretty legitimate as the causes go. I admit the middle east situation is not my specialty, and that I am about 25-35% sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. But there is so much on the line, and peace is so far off, and war is still the last resort most physical action that can be taken when all else fails.

Do you have any "unbiased" links that can provide more information on those requests for 200 billion dollars, and any responses in the past? Have any concessions been made by Israel? I know they gave back a lot of land over the years, even though they won it in a war....


The 1967 Sneak Attack is irrelevant. The Palestinian State was not a belligerent in that conflict (obviously, since there is no Palestinian state). That was a war between Israel, Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Yes, some Palestinian soldiers were killed by the IDF, just like some American navy sailors were also butchered without mercy, machine gunned in life rafts by laughing Israelis while pleading for their lives in that war. But it has nothing to do with the main issue, that being the 1947 Holocaust which Israel engineered with its "final solution" Plan Dalet.

    If China - without provocation - invaded the U.S., overran the U.S. up to the edge of the Mississippi River, then turned your house into a Fortune Cookie factory, would you say "well, they won fair and square - I accept the $300,000 loss [or whatever your property value is] and will just move on - I''m okay with my new life living in a tent in a refugee camp in the Mississippi bayou and sewing rags for a living." Or, would you try to get your house back, either individually, through combat action in an insurgent group, or by lobbying the U.S. government to launch a counter-offensive?
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:43 am

saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:idk, I think the war of 67 was pretty legitimate as the causes go. I admit the middle east situation is not my specialty, and that I am about 25-35% sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. But there is so much on the line, and peace is so far off, and war is still the last resort most physical action that can be taken when all else fails.

Do you have any "unbiased" links that can provide more information on those requests for 200 billion dollars, and any responses in the past? Have any concessions been made by Israel? I know they gave back a lot of land over the years, even though they won it in a war....


The 1967 Sneak Attack is irrelevant. The Palestinian State was not a belligerent in that conflict (obviously, since there is no Palestinian state). That was a war between Israel, Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Yes, some Palestinian soldiers were killed by the IDF, just like some American navy sailors were also butchered without mercy, machine gunned in life rafts by laughing Israelis while pleading for their lives in that war. But it has nothing to do with the main issue, that being the 1947 Holocaust which Israel engineered with its "final solution" Plan Dalet.

    If China - without provocation - invaded the U.S., overran the U.S. up to the edge of the Mississippi River, then turned your house into a Fortune Cookie factory, would you say "well, they won fair and square - I accept the $300,000 loss [or whatever your property value is] and will just move on - I''m okay with my new life living in a tent in a refugee camp in the Mississippi bayou and sewing rags for a living." Or, would you try to get your house back, either individually, through combat action in an insurgent group, or by lobbying the U.S. government to launch a counter-offensive?


I know. That's why I referred the the hypothetical destroyer of Israel as "xyz".

I just have never heard of the 200 billion dollar thingy, but it sounds interesting so I'll check it out
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:03 am

Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:idk, I think the war of 67 was pretty legitimate as the causes go. I admit the middle east situation is not my specialty, and that I am about 25-35% sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. But there is so much on the line, and peace is so far off, and war is still the last resort most physical action that can be taken when all else fails.

Do you have any "unbiased" links that can provide more information on those requests for 200 billion dollars, and any responses in the past? Have any concessions been made by Israel? I know they gave back a lot of land over the years, even though they won it in a war....


The 1967 Sneak Attack is irrelevant. The Palestinian State was not a belligerent in that conflict (obviously, since there is no Palestinian state). That was a war between Israel, Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Yes, some Palestinian soldiers were killed by the IDF, just like some American navy sailors were also butchered without mercy, machine gunned in life rafts by laughing Israelis while pleading for their lives in that war. But it has nothing to do with the main issue, that being the 1947 Holocaust which Israel engineered with its "final solution" Plan Dalet.

    If China - without provocation - invaded the U.S., overran the U.S. up to the edge of the Mississippi River, then turned your house into a Fortune Cookie factory, would you say "well, they won fair and square - I accept the $300,000 loss [or whatever your property value is] and will just move on - I''m okay with my new life living in a tent in a refugee camp in the Mississippi bayou and sewing rags for a living." Or, would you try to get your house back, either individually, through combat action in an insurgent group, or by lobbying the U.S. government to launch a counter-offensive?


I know. That's why I referred the the hypothetical destroyer of Israel as "xyz".

I just have never heard of the 200 billion dollar thingy, but it sounds interesting so I'll check it out


The figure was only a few billion in 1947, but 60 years of loss-of-use adds up fast. The figure the Palestinians themselves claim is $340 billion, at last count. (To put this in perspective, the entire Israeli annual government budget is $70 billion, which is why the very existence of Israel is a delusional fantasy; it will never, ever be able to pay its debts until it can buy enough congressmen like Anthony Weiner and Allan West to get the U.S. taxpayers to pay it for them.)

This isn't even that controversial. American presidents, right as they're about to leave office - or shortly thereafter - and aren't dependent on Mossad bribes anymore, all immediately switch their positions and agree Israel needs to pay what they owe and stop being a deadbeat welfare mom. Even George Bush said Palestinians must be paid for their houses that they were kicked out of by Israeli police so that a bunch of Ukrainians would have space to store their accordians.
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby patches70 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:37 am

saxitoxin wrote:This isn't even that controversial. American presidents, right as they're about to leave office - or shortly thereafter - and aren't dependent on Mossad bribes anymore, all immediately switch their positions and agree Israel needs to pay what they owe and stop being a deadbeat welfare mom. Even George Bush said Palestinians must be paid for their houses that they were kicked out of by Israeli police so that a bunch of Ukrainians would have space to store their accordians.


Wha wha what?

Are you saying that the supposedly Zionist Presidents turn out to not really be all that Zionist after all?
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Postby 2dimes on Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:05 am

Through the chair to the honorable Saxitoxin.

Most of the people that moved to the state of Israel when it was reformed. Are they American, general homeless people or displaced Germans/east Europeans?

The reason I ask is many of them lost property of some form during World War Two. Don't the need to have that back so they have a place to go when they move out of Ali's apartment in Jerusalem?
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Re:

Postby Symmetry on Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:27 am

2dimes wrote:Through the chair to the honorable Saxitoxin.

Most of the people that moved to the state of Israel when it was reformed. Are they American, general homeless people or displaced Germans/east Europeans?

The reason I ask is many of them lost property of some form during World War Two. Don't the need to have that back so they have a place to go when they move out of Ali's apartment in Jerusalem?


I think you might find that there weren't many German Jewish people around when Israel was founded. There were death camps. Look it up, dude.
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Postby 2dimes on Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:41 am

They seem to be causing plenty of issues in the Middle East, for dead guys.

Of course I'm not some holocaust denier. I know many, probably a majority, were killed. You bring up another question. How many people took over the modern state and how many now are born there just like the "Innocent rightful land owners' children."?

How do you start to sort the mess out? Everyone there with a claim goes to the border and get's a little flag like they did with homesteads in parts of the US&A?
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Re:

Postby Symmetry on Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:51 am

2dimes wrote:They seem to be causing plenty of issues in the Middle East, for dead guys.

Of course I'm not some holocaust denier. I know many, probably a majority, were killed. You bring up another question. How many people took over the modern state and how many now are born there just like the "Innocent rightful land owners' children."?

How do you start to sort the mess out? Everyone there with a claim goes to the border and get's a little flag like they did with homesteads in parts of the US&A?


There's always wikipedia, if you are genuinely puzzled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Demographics

Israel was established as a homeland for the Jewish people and is often referred to as a Jewish state. The country's Law of Return grants all Jews and those of Jewish lineage the right to Israeli citizenship.[340] Over three quarters, or 75.5%, of the population are Jews from a diversity of Jewish backgrounds. Around 4% of Israelis (300,000), ethnically defined as "others", are Russian-descendants of Jewish origin or family who are not Jewish according to rabbinical law, but were eligible for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return.[341][342] Approximately 68% of Israeli Jews are Israeli-born, 22% are immigrants from Europe and the Americas, and 10% are immigrants from Asia and Africa (including the Arab World).[343][344] Jews who left or fled Arab and Muslim countries and their descendants, known as Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews,[345] constitute approximately 50% of Jewish Israelis.[346][347][348] Jews from Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union and their Israeli-born descendants, or Ashkenazi Jews, form most of the rest of the Jewish population.
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Re:

Postby patches70 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:11 am

2dimes wrote:They seem to be causing plenty of issues in the Middle East, for dead guys.

Of course I'm not some holocaust denier. I know many, probably a majority, were killed. You bring up another question. How many people took over the modern state and how many now are born there just like the "Innocent rightful land owners' children."?

How do you start to sort the mess out? Everyone there with a claim goes to the border and get's a little flag like they did with homesteads in parts of the US&A?


Oh, the nazis pretty much wiped out the German Jew population, almost to the man, woman and child.

You have a good point though, one the Paliophiles tend to ignore, pretty much every country is founded on blood when you get right down to it.
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby patches70 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:17 am

the definitive history of the conflict, put to soothing music-

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Re: Re:

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:27 am

Symmetry wrote:
2dimes wrote:Through the chair to the honorable Saxitoxin.

Most of the people that moved to the state of Israel when it was reformed. Are they American, general homeless people or displaced Germans/east Europeans?

The reason I ask is many of them lost property of some form during World War Two. Don't the need to have that back so they have a place to go when they move out of Ali's apartment in Jerusalem?


I think you might find that there weren't many German Jewish people around when Israel was founded. There were death camps. Look it up, dude.


Interestingly, about 2/3 of the Jewish people living in pre-war Germany survived the Holocaust (mainly because most of them emigrated before WWII started). I'm guessing most of them no longer considered themselves residents of Germany by the end, but it does make a stark contrast with countries like Hungary, where the survival rate was almost the inverse.
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Postby 2dimes on Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:31 am

Yeah, every one that went to take the modern state of Israel back must have been from Australia.
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Re:

Postby Symmetry on Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:37 am

2dimes wrote:Yeah, every one that went to take the modern state of Israel back must have been from Australia.


Oh for goodness sake, I gave you the demographics. I'm not sure why you're harping on about this.
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Re: Re:

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:40 am

Symmetry wrote:
2dimes wrote:Yeah, every one that went to take the modern state of Israel back must have been from Australia.


Oh for goodness sake, I gave you the demographics. I'm not sure why you're harping on about this.


You're considering demographics from now. Obviously the majority of Israelis are Israeli-born, since the country has been around for 60+ years. Try looking for the demographics for when Israel was founded.
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Re: Re:

Postby Symmetry on Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:47 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
2dimes wrote:Yeah, every one that went to take the modern state of Israel back must have been from Australia.


Oh for goodness sake, I gave you the demographics. I'm not sure why you're harping on about this.


You're considering demographics from now. Obviously the majority of Israelis are Israeli-born, since the country has been around for 60+ years. Try looking for the demographics for when Israel was founded.


They were also in the source I provided. Ethnic origins were given. If you have an alternative source, I'd be happy to see it.
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby Symmetry on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:02 pm

Looks like there's a ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas, brokered by Egypt and the US.
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Postby 2dimes on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:33 pm

Symmetry wrote:
2dimes wrote:Yeah, every one that went to take the modern state of Israel back must have been from Australia.


Oh for goodness sake, I gave you the demographics. I'm not sure why you're harping on about this.


Oh, I don't know. Just for entertainment mostly. I should probably get a job at the arches or something.

Why are you pretending to be dumb.

If you really figure the answer to my question of where the people that settled, settled, not live there now, is answered by. "Approximately 68% of Israeli Jews are Israeli-born" then I'm not sure what to say here.
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby GreecePwns on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:37 pm

Here is the full text of the agreement:
Understanding regarding ceasfire in Gaza Strip
- Israel shall stop all hostilities in the Gaza Strip land sea and air, including incursions and targeting of individuals.
- All Palestinian factions shall stop all hostilities from the Gaza Strip against Israel, including rocket attacks and all attacks along the border.
- Opening the crossings and facilitating the movement of people and transfer of goods and refraining from restricting residents' free movements and targeting residents in border areas. Procedures of implementation shall be dealt with after 24 hours from the start of the ceasefire.
- Other matters as may be requested shall be addressed.

Implementation mechanism
- Setting up the zero hour understanding to enter into effect.
- Egypt shall receive assurances from each party that the party commits to what was agreed upon.
- Each party shall commit itself not to perform any acts that would breach this understanding. In case of any observations, Egypt as a sponsor of this understanding, shall be informed to follow up.

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Re:

Postby Symmetry on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:41 pm

2dimes wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
2dimes wrote:Yeah, every one that went to take the modern state of Israel back must have been from Australia.


Oh for goodness sake, I gave you the demographics. I'm not sure why you're harping on about this.


Oh, I don't know. Just for entertainment mostly. I should probably get a job at the arches or something.

Why are you pretending to be dumb.

If you really figure the answer to my question of where the people that settled, settled, not live there now, is answered by. "Approximately 68% of Israeli Jews are Israeli-born" then I'm not sure what to say here.


I think i answered the question with a detailed source that explained a bit more than that. But clearly you didn't bother reading the link, or indeed my post.

So anyway, here it is again:

Symmetry wrote:
There's always wikipedia, if you are genuinely puzzled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Demographics

Israel was established as a homeland for the Jewish people and is often referred to as a Jewish state. The country's Law of Return grants all Jews and those of Jewish lineage the right to Israeli citizenship.[340] Over three quarters, or 75.5%, of the population are Jews from a diversity of Jewish backgrounds. Around 4% of Israelis (300,000), ethnically defined as "others", are Russian-descendants of Jewish origin or family who are not Jewish according to rabbinical law, but were eligible for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return.[341][342] Approximately 68% of Israeli Jews are Israeli-born, 22% are immigrants from Europe and the Americas, and 10% are immigrants from Asia and Africa (including the Arab World).[343][344] Jews who left or fled Arab and Muslim countries and their descendants, known as Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews,[345] constitute approximately 50% of Jewish Israelis.[346][347][348] Jews from Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union and their Israeli-born descendants, or Ashkenazi Jews, form most of the rest of the Jewish population.
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby bedub1 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:41 pm

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Last edited by bedub1 on Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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