Gaza-Israel Ceasefire: Prison Conditions on Gaza Lifted

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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby Ray Rider on Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:02 pm

GreecePwns wrote:
Ray Rider wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:Let's start with the fact that 99% of Congress is already Zionist, some vehemently so.

GreecePwns wrote:I'm pretty sure all of what I've written in this thread is true. If you don't think so, prove it.

Actually no, if you make ludicrous statements like that, the onus is on you to prove their veracity, otherwise we'll just dismiss them offhand along with all the other crack-pot claims copied from Ahmadinejad.

Really? If you disagree, name 5 anti-Zionists in the American Congress (1% is actually 5.38 Congresspeople, but it's close enough). Surely, that will be so easy for you to if I'm so crazy.

As I've already pointed out, if you want to make claims, you need to back them up. I'm not going to chase down evidence against every loony claim that's made on this forum. That's your job if you want your opinions (or "facts," as you call them) to be considered. Look at the rest of this post if you want an example of claims which are well-sourced and verified. It makes it much easier for genuine debate and useful discourse to continue if there are verified facts to work with, not solely opinion.


saxitoxin wrote:
Ray Rider wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:Let's start with the fact that 99% of Congress is already Zionist, some vehemently so.

GreecePwns wrote:I'm pretty sure all of what I've written in this thread is true. If you don't think so, prove it.

Actually no, if you make ludicrous statements like that, the onus is on you to prove their veracity, otherwise we'll just dismiss them offhand along with all the other crack-pot claims copied from Ahmadinejad.


Zionist, being a state-of-mind, can't be objectively proved so to suggest GreecePwns needs to present the membership rolls of congressmen who are pro-Zionist in order to maintain the idea that the overwhelming majority of Congress is Zionist, is a ridiculous standard.

If we look at members of Congress who have received money from AIPAC, every single Republican (I only note Republicans because I don't know the figure for Democrats, but I bet it's close to 100%) has taken funds from a Zionist front group except three (four prior to Ron Paul's retirement) ... the Quebecois-American congressman Geoff Davis, plus Bob Inglis and Charles Boustany. These three were among the only U.S. congressmen who voted for the U.S. to endorse the United Nations Goldstone Report that accused Israel of crimes against humanity. (But, obviously, Judge Goldstone must have been anti-Semitic.)

Greecepwns was stating his 99% as if it was a statistic; as you stated, and I agree, it is not objectively verifiable and therefore should be regarded as mere opinion (which he is free to share, but is next to meaningless on a website full of opinions).

Speaking of evidence for claims, could you provide the link to where you found out which US politicians have received support from AIPAC? I'd be interested to check this out more.

Also, in case you missed it, although he maintained Hamas' guilt, Goldstone revised his claims about Israel's war crimes after seeing more evidence after the report had been issued. Here are some highlights from his subsequent statement which apply just as well to the previous war as to the current one:
Goldstone wrote:If I had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different document.

That the [war] crimes allegedly committed by Hamas were intentional goes without saying — its rockets were purposefully and indiscriminately aimed at civilian targets.

While the investigations published by the Israeli military and recognized in the U.N. committee’s report have established the validity [of Israeli war crimes] of some incidents that we investigated in cases involving individual soldiers, they also indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy.

Something that has not been recognized often enough is the fact that our report marked the first time illegal acts of terrorism from Hamas were being investigated and condemned by the United Nations. I had hoped that our inquiry into all aspects of the Gaza conflict would begin a new era of evenhandedness at the U.N. Human Rights Council, whose history of bias against Israel cannot be doubted.

Hundreds more rockets and mortar rounds have been directed at civilian targets in southern Israel. That comparatively few Israelis have been killed by the unlawful rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza in no way minimizes the criminality. The U.N. Human Rights Council should condemn these heinous acts in the strongest terms.



saxitoxin wrote:Meanwhile, in Iran ... the Vice-President, who has a Ph.D. in astrophysics, organized a 90th birthday party for his former doctoral mentor, the famous astronomer Dr. Alenush Terian (a female Christian) -

http://www.payvand.com/news/10/nov/1108.html

Image

Wow, that's great! How come we didn't hear of this in the news? It's rare that a lady is allowed to achieve such a high standing and recognition in repressive countries like that.

saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:The Temple Institute is an organization in Israel, with close links to the Israeli government, who is attempting to breed a magic cow called the Red Heifer. The Israeli government believes if they can create a magic cow, then stab it to death, the Messiah will arrive and slaughter all the Christians, Muslims, Atheists and Buddhists on the planet.


Sounds a lot like Iran and the 12th Imam.


Yeah, that was kinda my point. Glenn Beck and the rest of the Choir repeat the Prophecy of the Mahdi like it's in the running for the Pulitzer. I doubt we'll ever, ever, ever hear Glenn Beck talk about Israel and her Magic Cow.

    IOW, if you do something that makes you look crazy (trying to breed a Magic Cow) try to convince everyone your opponent is even nuttier to deflect attention.

I couldn't care less if a religious group tries to breed a special cow to bring their messiah back.
I do care about if the dictator of a nation desires global chaos in order to bring his messiah back.

bedub1 wrote:Updated death toll:
More than 110 Palestinians and three Israelis have been killed so far.
This isn't a war, it's genocide.

May I inquire what the death toll is for combatants/fighters/soldiers for each side? The combination of the two statistics might give a little more of an indication of whether it's genocide or collateral damage (which is very unfortunate and highly regretful but unavoidable in any war). Here is an example of the leaflets which the IDF recently dropped on local residents before a strike:
IDF wrote:Al Jazeera translated one leaflet dropped over the villages:

Military announcement

To the residents of Sheikh Ijleen, Tal al Hawa, Remal al-Janoub, Zeitoun neighbourhood, Shoujaiyat al-Tourkman, Shoujaiyat al-Jadida:

The Israeli military is not targeting any of you and does not want to hurt you or members of your family.

For your own safety, you are requested to evacuate your houses right away and to move towards Gaza City through Cairo Road, Arab League Road, al-Aqsa Road, al-Qadisiya Road, Em el Leymoun, Salaheddine, al-Mansoura, Khalas, Baghdad.

The deployment in Gaza City is limited in the west of Salah al-Din Road, north of Omar al Moukhtar Road, east of Nasr Road, and south of al-Qods Road.

This confrontation is temporary and once it ends everyone will go home.

Obeying the orders of the Israeli military will result in you, civilian residents, not being hurt

The Israeli Defence Army Leadership


In other news, ruthless barbarity was on display in Gaza today. Warning: graphic picture
show: Primitive brutality

I was ready to dismiss it as the act of thugs who got out of hand, but Hamas was quite happy to claim responsibility. I still find it difficult to comprehend how a government could endorse this kind of activity, even against spies. The most recent example of this kind of this type of savagery was with Gaddafi, but even there the new government didn't endorse it and promised to bring the killers to justice.

Edit: removed quote from Saxi and the Stanton Paper
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby saxitoxin on Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:14 pm

Ray Rider wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:
Ray Rider wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:Let's start with the fact that 99% of Congress is already Zionist, some vehemently so.

GreecePwns wrote:I'm pretty sure all of what I've written in this thread is true. If you don't think so, prove it.

Actually no, if you make ludicrous statements like that, the onus is on you to prove their veracity, otherwise we'll just dismiss them offhand along with all the other crack-pot claims copied from Ahmadinejad.

Really? If you disagree, name 5 anti-Zionists in the American Congress (1% is actually 5.38 Congresspeople, but it's close enough). Surely, that will be so easy for you to if I'm so crazy.

As I've already pointed out, if you want to make claims, you need to back them up. I'm not going to chase down evidence against every loony claim that's made on this forum. That's your job if you want your opinions (or "facts," as you call them) to be considered. Look at the rest of this post if you want an example of claims which are well-sourced and verified. It makes it much easier for genuine debate and useful discourse to continue if there are verified facts to work with, not solely opinion.


saxitoxin wrote:
Ray Rider wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:Let's start with the fact that 99% of Congress is already Zionist, some vehemently so.

GreecePwns wrote:I'm pretty sure all of what I've written in this thread is true. If you don't think so, prove it.

Actually no, if you make ludicrous statements like that, the onus is on you to prove their veracity, otherwise we'll just dismiss them offhand along with all the other crack-pot claims copied from Ahmadinejad.


Zionist, being a state-of-mind, can't be objectively proved so to suggest GreecePwns needs to present the membership rolls of congressmen who are pro-Zionist in order to maintain the idea that the overwhelming majority of Congress is Zionist, is a ridiculous standard.

If we look at members of Congress who have received money from AIPAC, every single Republican (I only note Republicans because I don't know the figure for Democrats, but I bet it's close to 100%) has taken funds from a Zionist front group except three (four prior to Ron Paul's retirement) ... the Quebecois-American congressman Geoff Davis, plus Bob Inglis and Charles Boustany. These three were among the only U.S. congressmen who voted for the U.S. to endorse the United Nations Goldstone Report that accused Israel of crimes against humanity. (But, obviously, Judge Goldstone must have been anti-Semitic.)

Greecepwns was stating his 99% as if it was a statistic; as you stated, and I agree, it is not objectively verifiable and therefore should be regarded as mere opinion (which he is free to share, but is next to meaningless on a website full of opinions).

Speaking of evidence for claims, could you provide the link to where you found out which US politicians have received support from AIPAC? I'd be interested to check this out more.

Also, in case you missed it, although he maintained Hamas' guilt, Goldstone revised his claims about Israel's war crimes after seeing more evidence after the report had been issued. Here are some highlights from his subsequent statement which apply just as well to the previous war as to the current one:
Goldstone wrote:If I had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different document.

That the [war] crimes allegedly committed by Hamas were intentional goes without saying — its rockets were purposefully and indiscriminately aimed at civilian targets.

While the investigations published by the Israeli military and recognized in the U.N. committee’s report have established the validity [of Israeli war crimes] of some incidents that we investigated in cases involving individual soldiers, they also indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy.

Something that has not been recognized often enough is the fact that our report marked the first time illegal acts of terrorism from Hamas were being investigated and condemned by the United Nations. I had hoped that our inquiry into all aspects of the Gaza conflict would begin a new era of evenhandedness at the U.N. Human Rights Council, whose history of bias against Israel cannot be doubted.

Hundreds more rockets and mortar rounds have been directed at civilian targets in southern Israel. That comparatively few Israelis have been killed by the unlawful rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza in no way minimizes the criminality. The U.N. Human Rights Council should condemn these heinous acts in the strongest terms.



saxitoxin wrote:Meanwhile, in Iran ... the Vice-President, who has a Ph.D. in astrophysics, organized a 90th birthday party for his former doctoral mentor, the famous astronomer Dr. Alenush Terian (a female Christian) -

http://www.payvand.com/news/10/nov/1108.html

Image

Wow, that's great! How come we didn't hear of this in the news? It's rare that a lady is allowed to achieve such a high standing and recognition in repressive countries like that.

saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:The Temple Institute is an organization in Israel, with close links to the Israeli government, who is attempting to breed a magic cow called the Red Heifer. The Israeli government believes if they can create a magic cow, then stab it to death, the Messiah will arrive and slaughter all the Christians, Muslims, Atheists and Buddhists on the planet.


Sounds a lot like Iran and the 12th Imam.


Yeah, that was kinda my point. Glenn Beck and the rest of the Choir repeat the Prophecy of the Mahdi like it's in the running for the Pulitzer. I doubt we'll ever, ever, ever hear Glenn Beck talk about Israel and her Magic Cow.

    IOW, if you do something that makes you look crazy (trying to breed a Magic Cow) try to convince everyone your opponent is even nuttier to deflect attention.

I couldn't care less if a religious group tries to breed a special cow to bring their messiah back.
I do care about if the dictator of a nation desires global chaos in order to bring his messiah back.

bedub1 wrote:Updated death toll:
More than 110 Palestinians and three Israelis have been killed so far.
This isn't a war, it's genocide.

May I inquire what the death toll is for combatants/fighters/soldiers for each side? The combination of the two statistics might give a little more of an indication of whether it's genocide or collateral damage (which is very unfortunate and highly regretful but unavoidable in any war). Here is an example of the leaflets which the IDF recently dropped on local residents before a strike:
IDF wrote:Al Jazeera translated one leaflet dropped over the villages:

Military announcement

To the residents of Sheikh Ijleen, Tal al Hawa, Remal al-Janoub, Zeitoun neighbourhood, Shoujaiyat al-Tourkman, Shoujaiyat al-Jadida:

The Israeli military is not targeting any of you and does not want to hurt you or members of your family.

For your own safety, you are requested to evacuate your houses right away and to move towards Gaza City through Cairo Road, Arab League Road, al-Aqsa Road, al-Qadisiya Road, Em el Leymoun, Salaheddine, al-Mansoura, Khalas, Baghdad.

The deployment in Gaza City is limited in the west of Salah al-Din Road, north of Omar al Moukhtar Road, east of Nasr Road, and south of al-Qods Road.

This confrontation is temporary and once it ends everyone will go home.

Obeying the orders of the Israeli military will result in you, civilian residents, not being hurt

The Israeli Defence Army Leadership


In other news, ruthless barbarity was on display in Gaza today. Warning: graphic picture
show: Primitive brutality

I was ready to dismiss it as the act of thugs who got out of hand, but Hamas was quite happy to claim responsibility. I still find it difficult to comprehend how a government could endorse this kind of activity, even against spies. The most recent example of this kind of this type of savagery was with Gaddafi, but even there the new government didn't endorse it and promised to bring the killers to justice.

Edit: removed quote from Saxi and the Stanton Paper


The other two members of the Goldstone commission disagreed with Goldstone's about-face on the original report and stood by its conclusions.

As for AIPAC funding, here's a list of members of Congress receiving money from AIPAC and AIPAC-affiliated front groups -
http://maplight.org/us-congress/interest/J5100/view/all
- which shows 94 of 100 U.S. Senators on the payroll. If GreecePWNS revised his statement from "99% of the U.S. Congress is Zionist" to "94% of the U.S. Senate is Zionist" would we be able to get you to agree to that? (His original statement of 99% is probably still accurate as I'd bet at least 5 of the 6 non-receivers are ideologically Zionist so don't require the bribes.)
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby GreecePwns on Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:02 pm

Ray Rider wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:
Ray Rider wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:Let's start with the fact that 99% of Congress is already Zionist, some vehemently so.

GreecePwns wrote:I'm pretty sure all of what I've written in this thread is true. If you don't think so, prove it.

Actually no, if you make ludicrous statements like that, the onus is on you to prove their veracity, otherwise we'll just dismiss them offhand along with all the other crack-pot claims copied from Ahmadinejad.

Really? If you disagree, name 5 anti-Zionists in the American Congress (1% is actually 5.38 Congresspeople, but it's close enough). Surely, that will be so easy for you to if I'm so crazy.

As I've already pointed out, if you want to make claims, you need to back them up. I'm not going to chase down evidence against every loony claim that's made on this forum. That's your job if you want your opinions (or "facts," as you call them) to be considered. Look at the rest of this post if you want an example of claims which are well-sourced and verified. It makes it much easier for genuine debate and useful discourse to continue if there are verified facts to work with, not solely opinion.


The US-Israel Enhanced Security Cooperation Act is an act approving of a $9 billion loan to Israel, the interest of which will be paid using previous American aid money. The act also contains language stating that the US must "protect the State of Israel against all threats."

Philip Giraldi, the former CIA counter-terrorism analyst, slammed the secretive bill for “provid[ing] Israel with a blank check drawn on the U.S. taxpayer” and suggested that the true intent was to support Israel’s membership in NATO. “If Israel becomes part of NATO,” he said, “the U.S. and other members will be obligated to come to the aid of a nation that is expanding its borders and is currently engaged in hostilities with three of its neighbors.”

The House’s passing of HR 4133 comes on the heels of the release of the House Republicans’ proposed 2013 defense authorization bill, which contains $1 billion for Israeli anti-missile defense systems, in addition to the $3 billion Israel currently receives annually in U.S. military aid.


Whether or not you agree with Giraldi's interpretation of the bill, you can not argue that those who vote in favor of such a bill definitely support the existence of the Jewish state Israel (the very definition of Zionism), going as far as to endorse their policies in Gaza and the West Bank.

In the House, the bill passed 411-2, with 9 voting present and 9 absent.
In the Senate, the bill passed unanimously without a roll call (not a single one voiced an opposition to it).

So at most, we have can have 11 people who don't believe Israel should be receiving aid (and 9 who were not present at the time of voting).

Of the 9 voting present (Blumenauer, Carson (IN), Edwards, Ellison, Jones, Lee (CA), McCollum, Stark, Woolsey) you can only make the argument that Woosley and Carson are anti-Zionist; the rest are supporters of a two-state solution or are ardent supporters of Israel.

Of the 9 not present (Bachmann, Burton (IN), Donnelly (IN), Eshoo, Filner, Garamendi, Kucinich, Slaughter, Stivers) you can only make the argument that Kucinich is anti-Zionist; the rest are supporters of a two-state solution or are ardent supporters of Israel.

So there's arguably 5 anti-Zionists in the House of Representatives, and none in the Senate. By my count at least.
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby GreecePwns on Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:05 pm

In other words, the number is definitely in the high 90s. 99%, 97% what have you, my point in that post stands.
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby patches70 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:40 pm

Ray Rider wrote:
In other news, ruthless barbarity was on display in Gaza today. Warning: graphic picture
show: Primitive brutality

I was ready to dismiss it as the act of thugs who got out of hand, but Hamas was quite happy to claim responsibility. I still find it difficult to comprehend how a government could endorse this kind of activity, even against spies. The most recent example of this kind of this type of savagery was with Gaddafi, but even there the new government didn't endorse it and promised to bring the killers to justice.

Edit: removed quote from Saxi and the Stanton Paper


Umm, not to split hairs or anything, but if the guy was indeed a spy, then such treatment is pretty standard. Covert spies have no rights, period. And that's international law. They can be summarily executed. Usually they are tortured first, but meh, they tend to end up dead regardless.

We don't parade dead spies through the streets, but we eliminate them pretty efficiently unless there is some reason not to.

Chances are, though, the guy was just some innocent who got caught up in the anger of some pretty sadistic MF'ers. To be expected, when one considers who we are talking about and the past history between the parties. If the guy was a spy, though, I wouldn't count on anyone claiming him as one of theirs if you know what I mean.
And a lot of spies don't even know they are spies. That's the really messed up thing about it. The handlers are the true spy and use useful idiots who end up dead like that guy being dragged through the streets.

Live and learn I suppose...Oh, wait..... :shock:



GreecePwns wrote:In other words, the number is definitely in the high 90s. 99%, 97% what have you, my point in that post stands.


Your point that you just made up the 99% and you don't really know but suspect?
Point taken!

Of course, if one were being fair (which is rare I know), then one would take into consideration the politics of it all and be sure to have a grain of salt handy.
How often do politicians just "go with the flow" because politically they must but as soon as the winds of fortune turn those same paid for politicians bite the hands that formerly fed them?

That's a more likely scenario and makes much more sense than some secret Illuminati type conspiracy. Which is what Zionism seems to represent to most people.
Just sayin'.

The Palestinians get screwed over all the time because no one likes the Palestinians. They're assholes to put it bluntly. A person may be justified being an asshole but they are still assholes and no one wants such people around for very long. It's ok to sympathize but you sure as hell wouldn't want them living with you! Because, well, they're assholes.

So, to the point, we got a bunch of assholes beating each other senseless. One side is clearly bigger than the other, but since both are such asses, trying to reason with either of them is pointless. The kids will figure it all out on the playground, one way or another. Picking sides when you ain't the one that's gotta do the fighting and dying just makes it worse.
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby saxitoxin on Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:56 pm

patches70 wrote:
Ray Rider wrote:
In other news, ruthless barbarity was on display in Gaza today. Warning: graphic picture
show: Primitive brutality

I was ready to dismiss it as the act of thugs who got out of hand, but Hamas was quite happy to claim responsibility. I still find it difficult to comprehend how a government could endorse this kind of activity, even against spies. The most recent example of this kind of this type of savagery was with Gaddafi, but even there the new government didn't endorse it and promised to bring the killers to justice.

Edit: removed quote from Saxi and the Stanton Paper


Umm, not to split hairs or anything, but if the guy was indeed a spy, then such treatment is pretty standard. Covert spies have no rights, period. And that's international law. They can be summarily executed. Usually they are tortured first, but meh, they tend to end up dead regardless.

We don't parade dead spies through the streets, but we eliminate them pretty efficiently unless there is some reason not to.

Chances are, though, the guy was just some innocent who got caught up in the anger of some pretty sadistic MF'ers. To be expected, when one considers who we are talking about and the past history between the parties. If the guy was a spy, though, I wouldn't count on anyone claiming him as one of theirs if you know what I mean.
And a lot of spies don't even know they are spies. That's the really messed up thing about it. The handlers are the true spy and use useful idiots who end up dead like that guy being dragged through the streets.

Live and learn I suppose...Oh, wait..... :shock:



Patches is 100% correct. The execution of spies is absolutely legal and customary. Britain famously started shooting all their officers and soldiers they'd caught spying for Japan and dumping their bodies in the harbor the day before Singapore fell.

After cards were cut to decide who would have the honour of killing [Capt. Patrick Heenan], it is alleged he was taken to the dockside, where a sergeant executed him with a single pistol shot to the back of the head. The body was then dumped in the harbour.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/specials ... silver.htm


In 1942 the U.S. had six German spies executed in secret in the Washington DC City Jail.

Israel's clumsy spies frequently get caught and hanged, as in the case of Eli Cohen who was hanged in '65 for engaging in espionage and sabotage in Syria, so this should be no great shock to them. Ironically, the U.S. - though it executes the spies of other nations - peculiarly gives Israeli spies stealing U.S. military secrets to sell to China or scout targets in the U.S. for attack in the event the gravy train stops flowing, a gentle touch (see: Jonathan Pollard, Ben-ami Kadish and all the other scores and scores of Israeli spies operating against the U.S.).
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby GreecePwns on Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:11 pm

I can't believe how much we're quibbling over the most minor of points. I actually stated the 99 percent figure after having looked at that vote count, revising after having messed up the first time (I never heard of that Woosley person and initially couldn't find anything concrete, and even after that it's technically over 99 percent).

Of course Congress could just be playing politics, patches. But actually believing Israel should exist and doing everything possible to advance its existence without believing it because it is politically expedient is essentially the same thing given the context of the post that I posted that figure in (about the influence of outside actors on the voting patterns of Congress, specifically on the issue of Israel's right to exist).

Even if it was 99 or 98 or even as low as Saxi's quoted 94 figure (which only represents direct contributions to campaigns and not indirect contributions, personal positions or other factors), the validity of rest of the post is not even being questioned, so what is the point here?
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby saxitoxin on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:16 pm

Ray Rider wrote:Wow, that's great! How come we didn't hear of this in the news? It's rare that a lady is allowed to achieve such a high standing and recognition in repressive countries like that.


Because it doesn't fit the western government narrative of Iran as a backwards basketcase run by people waiting for the Mahdi to come jumping out of a well. If the population sees Iran as a rational actor, they will demand negotiation instead of war and economic siege. Therefore, it is important Iran be portrayed as an irrational actor.

And it's not rare. About 8% of the Majlis are women deputies, which is lower than an ideal 50%, but roughly on-par with the world average of 12% for women in parliament, and higher than the 0% that existed under the Shah.

Ray Rider wrote:The most recent example of this kind of this type of savagery was with Gaddafi, but even there the new government didn't endorse it and promised to bring the killers to justice.


Also, just to be clear - not a single jihadist who appeared in the video of the assassination of Col. Qaddafi is alive today. But, not because the NATO-bakced NTC regime "brought them to justice." Every single one of them was arrested and executed by the secular Green Resistance, not the NATO/AlQaeda-backed NTC, which is today barely clinging to power in a handful of oil centers in Libya. In fact, the NATO/AlQaeda backed NTC were strong supporters of the jihadists who killed Col. Qaddafi --

    The Libyan revolutionary said to have been the first to discover Muammar Qaddafi last year died today at the American Hospital in Paris. Reacting to the news of his death, National Congress President Mohamed Magarief described Shaban as a “martyr” ...

    http://www.libyaherald.com/2012/09/25/l ... -in-paris/
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby patches70 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:50 pm

GreecePwns wrote:Even if it was 99 or 98 or even as low as Saxi's quoted 94 figure (which only represents direct contributions to campaigns and not indirect contributions, personal positions or other factors), the validity of rest of the post is not even being questioned, so what is the point here?


The point is, all those Zionists you say there are, if were asked "Should the Palestinians have their own State?" how many members of Congress would say "Sure, they should have their own State".

The problem becomes where to put that State.

What's wrong with Israel, how did you put it?-
GreecePwns wrote:believing Israel should exist and doing everything possible to advance its existence

why wouldn't Israel do that?
The Palestinians are doing the same thing, everything they can to advance their position.

The politicians speak out of both sides of their mouth. Israel has a right to exist, so do the Palestinians, each and every member of Congress will say that. Scratch that, I'm sure there are some real Jew haters in Congress.

The only reason it seems so pro Israeli is because the Palestinians don't have two nickels to rub together to donate to all the Congressmen's campaigns.

Congress takes that money and then says-"It's up to them to work out the agreement".

This is pretty much the belief, or at least the lip service given by pretty much anyone in Congress-

Obama Apr 6 2009 addressing the Turkish Parliament wrote:"In the Middle East, we share the goal of a lasting peace between Israel and its neighbors. Let me be clear: The United States strongly supports the goal of two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security. That is a goal shared by Palestinians, Israelis, and people of goodwill around the world. That is a goal that the parties agreed to in the road map and at Annapolis. That is a goal that I will actively pursue as President of the United States. We know the road ahead will be difficult. Both Israelis and Palestinians must take steps that are necessary to build confidence and trust. Both Israelis and Palestinians, both must live up to the commitments they have made. Both must overcome longstanding passions and the politics of the moment to make progress towards a secure and lasting peace."



When people go spouting off about Zionist conspiracy it leads down a very dirty road we've traveled before.

You rail against Israel but ignore that the Palestinians refuse to even acknowledge Israel's right to exist. They just absolutely hate the Jews. (Not all Palestinians of course, but you get the idea. The people making the decisions hate Jews with a blind passion) and there in is the real problem.
Blind and utter hatred.

You can say it's justified if you want, doesn't matter. Even if a person is justified in hating your guts would you just stand there and let them kill you? Of course not.
The Israeli's defend themselves, the Palestinians defend themselves, they go on hating each other and Congress pimps themselves out to whomever will give them money, like dirty whores.
We poor suckers on the street are fed propaganda from every direction from every party until there is just no way to know who's full of shit.

I know who's full of shit though, anyone who says- "It's their fault!" and point a finger at one party.
So you're full of shit and you wouldn't know the actual truth if it smack you in the face. Because people with agendas are spitting in your ear every way to Sunday.

So, sit back, let the children piss and shit in their own sandbox and quit trying to figure out who's right and who's wrong. They all are.

Oh, and if ya didn't notice, Obama's noble remarks are full of shit. He probably can't stand the Israeli's or the Palestinians. He sure as hell ain't gonna be able to get them to stop killing each other.

"Jesus is the only Jew the World ever gave a shit about" pretty much sums it up. Sadly.

You're entitled to keep on thinking that there is some Zionist conspiracy, hell, there might be. But there are much simpler reasons, greed being the primary one, emotion (hatred) being another and the urge to never let a crisis go to waste (which explains Congress' attitude).
Imagine if the Palestinians and the Israeli's ever did finally stop killing each other and live in peace with one another. There'd be a whole hell of a lot of disappointed politicians in the world.........
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby kentington on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:57 pm

lol. patches70, I agree with you. There is no way they are going to be able to stop them from fighting even if they had the incentive to.
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:23 am

Accepting the notion that "Israel has a right to exist" is an affirmation that the seizure of Palestinian land without compensation was a just and legal act.

Israel will earn its right to exist when it pays the $200 billion it owes to Palestinian property owners. Until that happens, though, Palestinians have a legal right to attempt to evict squatters just like any other property owner.

(In principal, I think Germany, Britain and Saudi Arabia should probably be required to split the costs of compensation with Israel four ways.)
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:25 am

saxitoxin wrote:Accepting the notion that "Israel has a right to exist" is an affirmation that the seizure of Palestinian land without compensation was a just and legal act.

Israel will earn its right to exist when it pays the $200 billion it owes to Palestinian property owners. Until that happens, though, Palestinians have a legal right to attempt to evict squatters just like any other property owner.

(In principal, I think Germany and Britain should probably be required to split the costs of compensation with Israel.)


what about the war Israel won in 67?

If Israel lost, wouldn't that have been fair that...Israel lost?
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:27 am

T
Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:Accepting the notion that "Israel has a right to exist" is an affirmation that the seizure of Palestinian land without compensation was a just and legal act.

Israel will earn its right to exist when it pays the $200 billion it owes to Palestinian property owners. Until that happens, though, Palestinians have a legal right to attempt to evict squatters just like any other property owner.

(In principal, I think Germany and Britain should probably be required to split the costs of compensation with Israel.)


what about the war Israel won in 67?


The Palestinian holocaust happened in 1947.
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:28 am

saxitoxin wrote:T
Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:Accepting the notion that "Israel has a right to exist" is an affirmation that the seizure of Palestinian land without compensation was a just and legal act.

Israel will earn its right to exist when it pays the $200 billion it owes to Palestinian property owners. Until that happens, though, Palestinians have a legal right to attempt to evict squatters just like any other property owner.

(In principal, I think Germany and Britain should probably be required to split the costs of compensation with Israel.)


what about the war Israel won in 67?


The Palestinian holocaust happened in 1947.


Ugh, I knew I shouldnt have added the year. Which year was the 7 day war?
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:30 am

Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:T
Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:Accepting the notion that "Israel has a right to exist" is an affirmation that the seizure of Palestinian land without compensation was a just and legal act.

Israel will earn its right to exist when it pays the $200 billion it owes to Palestinian property owners. Until that happens, though, Palestinians have a legal right to attempt to evict squatters just like any other property owner.

(In principal, I think Germany and Britain should probably be required to split the costs of compensation with Israel.)


what about the war Israel won in 67?


The Palestinian holocaust happened in 1947.


Ugh, I knew I shouldnt have added the year. Which year was the 7 day war?


No, you were right. Israel staged a sneak attack against Egypt and Syria in 1967.
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:46 am

saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:T
Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:Accepting the notion that "Israel has a right to exist" is an affirmation that the seizure of Palestinian land without compensation was a just and legal act.

Israel will earn its right to exist when it pays the $200 billion it owes to Palestinian property owners. Until that happens, though, Palestinians have a legal right to attempt to evict squatters just like any other property owner.

(In principal, I think Germany and Britain should probably be required to split the costs of compensation with Israel.)


what about the war Israel won in 67?


The Palestinian holocaust happened in 1947.


Ugh, I knew I shouldnt have added the year. Which year was the 7 day war?


No, you were right. Israel staged a sneak attack against Egypt and Syria in 1967.


Yeah, I have to believe that if Israel lost the war, and ceased to exist in 67, then I would accept the history that xyz won the war, and that's the way it is.
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:57 am

Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:T
Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:Accepting the notion that "Israel has a right to exist" is an affirmation that the seizure of Palestinian land without compensation was a just and legal act.

Israel will earn its right to exist when it pays the $200 billion it owes to Palestinian property owners. Until that happens, though, Palestinians have a legal right to attempt to evict squatters just like any other property owner.

(In principal, I think Germany and Britain should probably be required to split the costs of compensation with Israel.)


what about the war Israel won in 67?


The Palestinian holocaust happened in 1947.


Ugh, I knew I shouldnt have added the year. Which year was the 7 day war?


No, you were right. Israel staged a sneak attack against Egypt and Syria in 1967.


Yeah, I have to believe that if Israel lost the war, and ceased to exist in 67, then I would accept the history that xyz won the war, and that's the way it is.


Property claims are not decided in gladitorial contests. They are decided by neutral arbiters dispassionately applying an objective code of laws.

Israel owes several hundred thousand Palestinian homeowners and their heirs $200 billion for stealing their houses in 1947. Until Israel pays, it is subject to unlimited eviction efforts. Because the squatter in this case, Israel, is well armed, these eviction efforts may involve the use of Grad rockets and other heavy armaments. Israel can choose to end these eviction efforts anytime it wants by paying its legal debts instead of playing the role of the deadbeat food stamp mom of the Levant.
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby kentington on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:02 am

saxitoxin wrote:Property claims are not decided in gladitorial contests. They are decided by neutral arbiters dispassionately applying an objective code of laws.


I don't think there are any truly neutral arbiters left. Someone will always have something to gain from a decision, one way or the other.
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:03 am

idk, I think the war of 67 was pretty legitimate as the causes go. I admit the middle east situation is not my specialty, and that I am about 25-35% sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. But there is so much on the line, and peace is so far off, and war is still the last resort most physical action that can be taken when all else fails.

Do you have any "unbiased" links that can provide more information on those requests for 200 billion dollars, and any responses in the past? Have any concessions been made by Israel? I know they gave back a lot of land over the years, even though they won it in a war....
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:28 am

saxitoxin wrote:Property claims are not decided in gladitorial contests. They are decided by neutral arbiters dispassionately applying an objective code of laws.

If only that were true.

Sadly, the opposite is usually the case. Just sayin'.
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:33 am

Phatscotty wrote:idk, I think the war of 67 was pretty legitimate as the causes go. I admit the middle east situation is not my specialty, and that I am about 25-35% sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. But there is so much on the line, and peace is so far off, and war is still the last resort most physical action that can be taken when all else fails.

Do you have any "unbiased" links that can provide more information on those requests for 200 billion dollars, and any responses in the past? Have any concessions been made by Israel? I know they gave back a lot of land over the years, even though they won it in a war....


The 1967 Sneak Attack is irrelevant. The Palestinian State was not a belligerent in that conflict (obviously, since there is no Palestinian state). That was a war between Israel, Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Yes, some Palestinian soldiers were killed by the IDF, just like some American navy sailors were also butchered without mercy, machine gunned in life rafts by laughing Israelis while pleading for their lives in that war. But it has nothing to do with the main issue, that being the 1947 Holocaust which Israel engineered with its "final solution" Plan Dalet.

    If China - without provocation - invaded the U.S., overran the U.S. up to the edge of the Mississippi River, then turned your house into a Fortune Cookie factory, would you say "well, they won fair and square - I accept the $300,000 loss [or whatever your property value is] and will just move on - I''m okay with my new life living in a tent in a refugee camp in the Mississippi bayou and sewing rags for a living." Or, would you try to get your house back, either individually, through combat action in an insurgent group, or by lobbying the U.S. government to launch a counter-offensive?
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:43 am

saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:idk, I think the war of 67 was pretty legitimate as the causes go. I admit the middle east situation is not my specialty, and that I am about 25-35% sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. But there is so much on the line, and peace is so far off, and war is still the last resort most physical action that can be taken when all else fails.

Do you have any "unbiased" links that can provide more information on those requests for 200 billion dollars, and any responses in the past? Have any concessions been made by Israel? I know they gave back a lot of land over the years, even though they won it in a war....


The 1967 Sneak Attack is irrelevant. The Palestinian State was not a belligerent in that conflict (obviously, since there is no Palestinian state). That was a war between Israel, Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Yes, some Palestinian soldiers were killed by the IDF, just like some American navy sailors were also butchered without mercy, machine gunned in life rafts by laughing Israelis while pleading for their lives in that war. But it has nothing to do with the main issue, that being the 1947 Holocaust which Israel engineered with its "final solution" Plan Dalet.

    If China - without provocation - invaded the U.S., overran the U.S. up to the edge of the Mississippi River, then turned your house into a Fortune Cookie factory, would you say "well, they won fair and square - I accept the $300,000 loss [or whatever your property value is] and will just move on - I''m okay with my new life living in a tent in a refugee camp in the Mississippi bayou and sewing rags for a living." Or, would you try to get your house back, either individually, through combat action in an insurgent group, or by lobbying the U.S. government to launch a counter-offensive?


I know. That's why I referred the the hypothetical destroyer of Israel as "xyz".

I just have never heard of the 200 billion dollar thingy, but it sounds interesting so I'll check it out
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:03 am

Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:idk, I think the war of 67 was pretty legitimate as the causes go. I admit the middle east situation is not my specialty, and that I am about 25-35% sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. But there is so much on the line, and peace is so far off, and war is still the last resort most physical action that can be taken when all else fails.

Do you have any "unbiased" links that can provide more information on those requests for 200 billion dollars, and any responses in the past? Have any concessions been made by Israel? I know they gave back a lot of land over the years, even though they won it in a war....


The 1967 Sneak Attack is irrelevant. The Palestinian State was not a belligerent in that conflict (obviously, since there is no Palestinian state). That was a war between Israel, Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Yes, some Palestinian soldiers were killed by the IDF, just like some American navy sailors were also butchered without mercy, machine gunned in life rafts by laughing Israelis while pleading for their lives in that war. But it has nothing to do with the main issue, that being the 1947 Holocaust which Israel engineered with its "final solution" Plan Dalet.

    If China - without provocation - invaded the U.S., overran the U.S. up to the edge of the Mississippi River, then turned your house into a Fortune Cookie factory, would you say "well, they won fair and square - I accept the $300,000 loss [or whatever your property value is] and will just move on - I''m okay with my new life living in a tent in a refugee camp in the Mississippi bayou and sewing rags for a living." Or, would you try to get your house back, either individually, through combat action in an insurgent group, or by lobbying the U.S. government to launch a counter-offensive?


I know. That's why I referred the the hypothetical destroyer of Israel as "xyz".

I just have never heard of the 200 billion dollar thingy, but it sounds interesting so I'll check it out


The figure was only a few billion in 1947, but 60 years of loss-of-use adds up fast. The figure the Palestinians themselves claim is $340 billion, at last count. (To put this in perspective, the entire Israeli annual government budget is $70 billion, which is why the very existence of Israel is a delusional fantasy; it will never, ever be able to pay its debts until it can buy enough congressmen like Anthony Weiner and Allan West to get the U.S. taxpayers to pay it for them.)

This isn't even that controversial. American presidents, right as they're about to leave office - or shortly thereafter - and aren't dependent on Mossad bribes anymore, all immediately switch their positions and agree Israel needs to pay what they owe and stop being a deadbeat welfare mom. Even George Bush said Palestinians must be paid for their houses that they were kicked out of by Israeli police so that a bunch of Ukrainians would have space to store their accordians.
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby patches70 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:37 am

saxitoxin wrote:This isn't even that controversial. American presidents, right as they're about to leave office - or shortly thereafter - and aren't dependent on Mossad bribes anymore, all immediately switch their positions and agree Israel needs to pay what they owe and stop being a deadbeat welfare mom. Even George Bush said Palestinians must be paid for their houses that they were kicked out of by Israeli police so that a bunch of Ukrainians would have space to store their accordians.


Wha wha what?

Are you saying that the supposedly Zionist Presidents turn out to not really be all that Zionist after all?
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Postby 2dimes on Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:05 am

Through the chair to the honorable Saxitoxin.

Most of the people that moved to the state of Israel when it was reformed. Are they American, general homeless people or displaced Germans/east Europeans?

The reason I ask is many of them lost property of some form during World War Two. Don't the need to have that back so they have a place to go when they move out of Ali's apartment in Jerusalem?
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