The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:12 am

MegaProphet wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:why is it you don't think that

I think that the most important values of the US(I assume you are talking about the US and not all of the countries of the American continents) are democracy, freedom, and equality and I don't see socialism as being in direct conflict with those values.
Of course if one believes capitalism to be a core value of the US then I can see where they would believe socialism to be anti-America.


where do the values of Democracy come from. Are we no longer a Republic?

Freedom: You had me at hello

Equality? I suspect you have an interesting definition of equality. But I will hope to meet you in that we are all born equal. Not that we end up equal.
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Iliad on Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:56 am

Phatscotty wrote:
MegaProphet wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:we also believe in keeping the fruits of our own labor, and fought a bloody civil war over it.

Socialism is at odds with this principle of ours.

Can you explain how the civil war was fought over the belief in keeping the fruits of our own labor?


people were not getting paid for their work, or way too little. Not just slaves, but Irish people and gingers too.

"And, inasmuch [as] most good things are produced by labour, it follows that [all] such things of right belong to those whose labour has produced them. But it has so happened in all ages of the world, that some have laboured, and others have, without labour, enjoyed a large proportion of the fruits. This is wrong, and should not continue. To [secure] to each labourer the whole product of his labour, or as nearly as possible, is a most worthy object of any good government."

-Lincoln

Image


Firstly you do realise he's saying a fairly socialist thing there right? That the lower class is being exploited and all that?

And that still doesn't come close to actually being a casus belli for the Civil War. Slavery was, your attempts to muddy the waters are very weak. As are your attempts to clarify what you mean by American values and what socialism is.
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:00 am

I didn't say it was the sole reason. talk about muddying the waters! shame on you! 8-)

I would ask you to expound on your bit about how anytime some rightly points out exploitation, that automatically makes it socialist....
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Iliad on Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:15 am

Phatscotty wrote:I didn't say it was the sole reason. talk about muddying the waters! shame on you! 8-)

I would ask you to expound on your bit about how anytime some rightly points out exploitation, that automatically makes it socialist....
You said the civil war was fought over keeping the fruits of your labour...
Phatscotty wrote:we also believe in keeping the fruits of our own labor, and fought a bloody civil war over it.

Socialism is at odds with this principle of ours.


It really really wasn't.If anything slavery is the furthest point of the individualised pursuit of wealth untempered by collective controls. The commodification of human free will itself. You were trying to reframe it to fit your point and quite shamefully trying to drop the topic now.

Also easy. If Obama said the gist of what Lincoln said above, Fox would be running with that for a week.
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Lootifer on Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:20 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
"And, inasmuch [as] most good things are produced by labour, it follows that [all] such things of right belong to those whose labour has produced them. But it has so happened in all ages of the world, that some have laboured, and others have, without labour, enjoyed a large proportion of the fruits. This is wrong, and should not continue. To [secure] to each labourer the whole product of his labour, or as nearly as possible, is a most worthy object of any good government."

-Lincoln

Incidentally the modern centre left (what you seem to call socialism) movement can quite happily say exactly the same thing with a stright face, and with honesty.
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Lootifer on Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:28 pm

Phatscotty wrote:we also believe in keeping the fruits of our own labor, and fought a bloody civil war over it.

Socialism is at odds with this principle of ours.

But "we" and "ours" doesnt include the entire american population.
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