The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:13 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:For the sake of the thread topic tho, there is a clear takeover of the education system by the federal government around the time of "the great society". When it comes to public funding, for these purposes, it can be pretty much summed up as pre great society and post G. S. And it's crystal clear that while schools have gotten a lot nicer and have swimming pools and internet access and heat and AC and free lunch programs, the results of our education system since the 1960's has been steadily getting worse


Lootifer wrote:Correlation does not imply causation.


good, because the thread topic covers the time around about 1870 to 1910. The 1960's have nothing to do with it

you can be a better smart-ass than that!
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby AAFitz on Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:28 am

Phatscotty wrote: dodge. If your post is going to basically say nothing, why even post? (other than a vague attack on my character) Just get some perspective is all. You continually cram the history of America into the lens of 2012. It's a Progressive trait.

cracking yourself up a lot today eh?

I always use the word peeps.

We the Peeps!


You asked a question and I answered it honestly. Im not commenting on your character, just explaining that it was the reason for my posts. Im not even implying I am correct, only, that it is the reason. And since your other questions were either just stupid or rhetorical, I didnt dodge them, only appropriately ignored them.

And no, I don't cram it into the lens of 2012. I cram it into the lens of the Bible and the Christian notion of right and wrong. And dont worry. I see the irony of that just fine.

As far as using the word peeps, in situations where extermination was involved, feel free, and I only remind you it is one of the factors that leads me to my assessment of your character, which is again not necessarily an attack, because I state it with the understanding of your probable view of mine.

In any case, I will definitely try to check out the series. Just this morning I saw the first episode of Oliver Stones new series. Im sure we will get an equal amount of entertainment discussing that when the time comes.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Nola_Lifer on Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:45 pm

"The first transcontinental railroad was build with blood, sweat, politics and thievery...The Central Pacific...spent $200,000 in Washington on bribes to get 9 million acres of free land and $24 million in bonds" then they paid a construction company, which they owned, $79 million an overpayment of $36 million.

The Union Pacific "had been given 12 million acres of free land and $27 million in government bonds. It created the Credit Mobilier company and gave them $94 million for construction when the actual cost was $44 million. Shares were cold cheaply to Congressmen to prevent investigation."


These men certainly didn't want to fight for America. "Morgan had escaped military service in the Civil War by paying $300 to a substitute. So did John D. Rockafeller, Andrew Carnegie, Phillip Armour, Jay Gould, and James Mellon."

"John D. Rockefeller...decided that, in the new industry of oil, who controlled the oil refineries controlled the industry. Standard Oil Company of Ohio, made secret agreement with railroads to ship his oil with them if they gave him rebates on their prices, and thus drove competitors out of business."

"And so it went, in industry after industry...businessmen building empires, choking out competition, maintaining high prices, keeping wages low, using government subsidies. These industries were the first beneficiaries of the 'welfare state.' By the turn of the century, American Telephone and Telegraph had a monopoly on the nation's machinery, and in every other industry resources became concentrated, controlled. The banks had interests in so many of these monopolies as to create and interlocking network of powerful corporation directors. According to a Senate report of the early 2oth century, Morgan at his peak sat on the board of forty-eight corporation; Rockefeller, thirty-seven corporation."

These are the men you want to idolize? They are the reason we are in the predicament we are in now.

One more thing; "While some multimillionaires started in poverty, most did not. A study of the origins of 303 textile, railroad, and steel executives of the 1870s showed that 90 percent came from the middle- or upper-class families. The Horartio Alger stories of 'rags to riches' were true for a few men, but mostly a myth, and a useful myth for control."
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Lootifer on Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:36 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Funny you should ask. I'm about 200 pages into his autobiography at the moment. Adams is definitely one of my favorites. I've seen the HBO series probably 100 times (I always fall asleep to it). Have you read his autobiography or maybe seen the series? Not sure what your assumption implies, but you can try to trap me with it. 8-)

I will grant your point that 100% of schools were not independent of federal funding. I was going to put that in my previous post, but didn't think you would go there, since it doesn't prove or disprove anything really. I would assume based on common sense and a growing population along with building more schools to accomodate the growth (with the exception of the flu pandemic and world wars and probably some great depression years) that public school investment has grown probably every year.....

example: Barack Obama and Democrat controlled Congress increased education spending 100% in either 2009 or 2010, and the other year I think it was increased by 78% (when you add up various factors, not just the budget of the BOE). What was the outcome? teachers strikes, union growth in money and power, and results that stayed about the same as the year before.... unless you count the warm fuzzies and ego stroking some people seem to be dependent on

For the sake of the thread topic tho, there is a clear takeover of the education system by the federal government around the time of "the great society". When it comes to public funding, for these purposes, it can be pretty much summed up as pre great society and post G. S. And it's crystal clear that while schools have gotten a lot nicer and have swimming pools and internet access and heat and AC and free lunch programs, the results of our education system since the 1960's has been steadily getting worse.

bottom line is, IMO, our once best in the world education system will probably not survive the impact of the counter-culture and the now too powerful teachers unions.

Oh I just thought this interesting:
"The whole people must take upon themselves the education of the whole people and be willing to bear the expenses of it. There should not be a district of one mile square, without a school in it, not founded by a charitable individual, but maintained at the public expense of the people themselves."

— John Adams, U.S. President, 1785

Also I am confused; could you clarify something for me: You mean the period between 1840-1910 was or was not the greatest growth period in the US? (I am genuinely unsure; I didnt do american history at school)
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:45 pm

btw, John Adams also said...

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:47 pm

MegaProphet wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
MegaProphet wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Nola_Lifer wrote:Yes, idolize the robber barons who held monopolizes, exploited workers and the government for profit. One of the reasons we are in the mess we are in.


....and also vastly improved Nola's Life, and every person Nola knows life as well.....

"BASTARDS!"

Are you not grateful for Rockefeller, Carnegie, Edison, Morgan, Tesla, Westinghouse, Vanderbilt, Ford?

Did the show feature Tesla? Maybe I will have to watch it


ummmmmmmmmmmmmm? Yes.....why would that compel you to watch it, but nothing else?

Electricity is definitely one of the most important building blocks of modern America. Tesla invented AC, afterall... and he certainly is one of the men who helped to build America

I just really like Tesla


You might really enjoy this then...

"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:58 pm

Phatscotty wrote:btw, John Adams also said...

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.


In the time of John Adams, it was universally recognized by religious people that morality and religion are basically synonymous. We now have learned better than this.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:03 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:btw, John Adams also said...

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.


In the time of John Adams, it was universally recognized by religious people that morality and religion are basically synonymous. We now have learned better than this.


How is the current state of moral confusion better?
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:09 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:btw, John Adams also said...

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.


In the time of John Adams, it was universally recognized by religious people that morality and religion are basically synonymous. We now have learned better than this.


How is the current state of moral confusion better?


Well, no one promised that the transition would be smooth. You can't force people to give up on old ideas (some a century old, some a millennium old) overnight, but that doesn't make the underlying reality change. We as a society have already fundamentally given up on such ideas as the absolute sanctity of life, it's just taking a while for people to come to terms with it.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Lootifer on Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:14 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:btw, John Adams also said...

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.


In the time of John Adams, it was universally recognized by religious people that morality and religion are basically synonymous. We now have learned better than this.


How is the current state of moral confusion better?

What moral confusion?
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:42 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:btw, John Adams also said...

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.


In the time of John Adams, it was universally recognized by religious people that morality and religion are basically synonymous. We now have learned better than this.


How is the current state of moral confusion better?


Well, no one promised that the transition would be smooth. You can't force people to give up on old ideas (some a century old, some a millennium old) overnight, but that doesn't make the underlying reality change. We as a society have already fundamentally given up on such ideas as the absolute sanctity of life, it's just taking a while for people to come to terms with it.


How many more school shootings will we have to tolerate until the transition to the values of the counter-culture is complete?
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby chang50 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:22 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:btw, John Adams also said...

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.


In the time of John Adams, it was universally recognized by religious people that morality and religion are basically synonymous. We now have learned better than this.


How is the current state of moral confusion better?


Well, no one promised that the transition would be smooth. You can't force people to give up on old ideas (some a century old, some a millennium old) overnight, but that doesn't make the underlying reality change. We as a society have already fundamentally given up on such ideas as the absolute sanctity of life, it's just taking a while for people to come to terms with it.


How many more school shootings will we have to tolerate until the transition to the values of the counter-culture is complete?


School shootings,tragic as they are don't begin to compare with the barbarity of the late 19th century which you appear to imagine was so much better than now.You would need a Columbine every day for a decade to approach the cowardly and greedy genocide of the Plains Indians by the invading Americans during this glorious time.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:06 am

chang50 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:btw, John Adams also said...

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.




How is the current state of moral confusion better?


Well, no one promised that the transition would be smooth. You can't force people to give up on old ideas (some a century old, some a millennium old) overnight, but that doesn't make the underlying reality change. We as a society have already fundamentally given up on such ideas as the absolute sanctity of life, it's just taking a while for people to come to terms with it.


How many more school shootings will we have to tolerate until the transition to the values of the counter-culture is complete?


School shootings,tragic as they are don't begin to compare with the barbarity of the late 19th century which you appear to imagine was so much better than now.You would need a Columbine every day for a decade to approach the cowardly and greedy genocide of the Plains Indians by the invading Americans during this glorious time.


so, basically, school shootings are comparable to the human instinct to expand and the human desire for vengeance?

School shootings happen because some kids don't know right from wrong, because there is no longer any sanctity of life. nothing has meaning, there is no black and white, morals are no longer taught, no longer allowed to be taught. We have failed to teach and raise those children properly and with values and culture.

In the 19th century in America, children brought their guns to school for show and tell (if you are at all interested in a relevant comparison)
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby chang50 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:40 am

Well, no one promised that the transition would be smooth. You can't force people to give up on old ideas (some a century old, some a millennium old) overnight, but that doesn't make the underlying reality change. We as a society have already fundamentally given up on such ideas as the absolute sanctity of life, it's just taking a while for people to come to terms with it.[/quote]

How many more school shootings will we have to tolerate until the transition to the values of the counter-culture is complete?[/quote]

School shootings,tragic as they are don't begin to compare with the barbarity of the late 19th century which you appear to imagine was so much better than now.You would need a Columbine every day for a decade to approach the cowardly and greedy genocide of the Plains Indians by the invading Americans during this glorious time.[/quote]

so, basically, school shootings are comparable to the human instinct to expand and the human desire for vengeance?

School shootings happen because some kids don't know right from wrong, because there is no longer any sanctity of life. nothing has meaning, there is no black and white, morals are no longer taught, no longer allowed to be taught. We have failed to teach and raise those children properly and with values and culture.

In the 19th century in America, children brought their guns to school for show and tell (if you are at all interested in a relevant comparison)[/quote]

Did the perpetrators of the massacres of native American women and children respect the sanctity of life,or know right from wrong?This was no golden age...
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:57 am

Phatscotty wrote:School shootings happen because some kids don't know right from wrong, because there is no longer any sanctity of life. nothing has meaning, there is no black and white, morals are no longer taught, no longer allowed to be taught. We have failed to teach and raise those children properly and with values and culture.


You're probably right, if we just sternly tell these kids "shooting innocent people is wrong, m'kay," I'm sure they'll stop.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby warmonger1981 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:14 am

Society as a whole is fucked. I feel like I'm living in a science fiction novel like 1984. Reality is nothing mord than people telling you this is the way it is and has been.
Like the Easter bung is real or Santa clause has anything to do with Jesus. Hell Jesus wasn't even born in December. Point being is that this show is suger coated with a little of this and a little of that to make you see their perspective.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Symmetry on Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:20 am

Santa Claus is a Christian saint, just thought I'd throw that in to the mix. Carry on.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby MegaProphet on Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:23 am

Phatscotty wrote:
MegaProphet wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
MegaProphet wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Nola_Lifer wrote:Yes, idolize the robber barons who held monopolizes, exploited workers and the government for profit. One of the reasons we are in the mess we are in.


....and also vastly improved Nola's Life, and every person Nola knows life as well.....

"BASTARDS!"

Are you not grateful for Rockefeller, Carnegie, Edison, Morgan, Tesla, Westinghouse, Vanderbilt, Ford?

Did the show feature Tesla? Maybe I will have to watch it


ummmmmmmmmmmmmm? Yes.....why would that compel you to watch it, but nothing else?

Electricity is definitely one of the most important building blocks of modern America. Tesla invented AC, afterall... and he certainly is one of the men who helped to build America

I just really like Tesla


You might really enjoy this then...


Thanks, I'll take a look
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Nola_Lifer on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:44 am

Phatscotty wrote:so, basically, school shootings are comparable to the human instinct to expand and the human desire for vengeance?


What vengeance was that? Indians shooting European settlers? Might want to re think that one.

School shootings happen because some kids don't know right from wrong, because there is no longer any sanctity of life. nothing has meaning, there is no black and white, morals are no longer taught, no longer allowed to be taught. We have failed to teach and raise those children properly and with values and culture.

In the 19th century in America, children brought their guns to school for show and tell (if you are at all interested in a relevant comparison)


Out of context. High school kids shooting people is a sign of some mental issues, and not whether you morally sounds or not. In what reality do you live?
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby warmonger1981 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:33 pm

morality is in the eye of the beholder. a person who has alot of sexual partners may think thats normal as did the spartans who threw babies off a cliff cause they didnt measure up. we now live in a world that has very few rights and wrongs.. its ok for a soldier to kill people but its wrong if a civilian does it no matter what the reason may be. hell i cant even get rear ended in my car without me being responsible for 10% of the accident. i think thats wrong and immoral for my premium to go up but thats not the way the insurance company sees it..
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:55 pm

Nola_Lifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:so, basically, school shootings are comparable to the human instinct to expand and the human desire for vengeance?


What vengeance was that? Indians shooting European settlers? Might want to re think that one.


Maybe you want to think about if an Indian ever shot a European?
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:57 pm

Nola_Lifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:so, basically, school shootings are comparable to the human instinct to expand and the human desire for vengeance?


What vengeance was that? Indians shooting European settlers? Might want to re think that one.

School shootings happen because some kids don't know right from wrong, because there is no longer any sanctity of life. nothing has meaning, there is no black and white, morals are no longer taught, no longer allowed to be taught. We have failed to teach and raise those children properly and with values and culture.

In the 19th century in America, children brought their guns to school for show and tell (if you are at all interested in a relevant comparison)


Out of context. High school kids shooting people is a sign of some mental issues, and not whether you morally sounds or not. In what reality do you live?


I live in the reality that when schools are not allowed to teach "you should not murder" you are going to have more killings than if children were taught, universally, that murdering is wrong.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Lootifer on Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:10 pm

Hold the phone...

Pretty sure kids are taught that murder is wrong. Every child I know from my niece to the kids I see at the local supermarket get it drilled into them that hurting others is wrong.

You seem to be giving us an unwarranted label of a morally corrupt society when really its just regular old poor parenting (which has existed since the dawn of time).

I'd probably agree that "kid these days" have less respect for things in general; but again I link that back to the parenting they are receiving. Now if you want to discuss the reasons why parents, on average, seem to be worse "these days" I'm happy to have that discussion.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:14 pm

Lootifer wrote:Hold the phone...

Pretty sure kids are taught that murder is wrong.


How is that taught? I mean, in what way?
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:23 pm

"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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