The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:41 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I live in the reality that when schools are not allowed to teach "you should not murder" you are going to have more killings than if children were taught, universally, that murdering is wrong.


Then you don't actually live in reality.

This, of course, comes as no surprise to off topic regulars.


Why don't I? Is it really that hard for you to accept the more that something is taught and reinforced, the more it will have been learned?
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:44 pm

"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Neoteny on Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:45 pm

AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
MegaProphet wrote:I might watch it, but I rather see the Story of All of Us

Image


Indeed that's the story of every country, the story of all of us.

Every country has held slaves and battled with indiginous peeps.


Some more than others.

In any case, the indiginous peeps in our case, were more slaughtered by the black plague than they were us. As in all other countries with "indiginous peeps" they would most likely have a massive presence, if not have kept the invaders out, if it were not for the plague having something like an 80% mortality rate with Native Americans.

By the way phatty...the use of the phrase; "battled with indiginous peeps"... makes you a POS :D

I hope you someday get to be that type of peep.


FWIW, I believe you meant "smallpox" instead of "plague."
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:09 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I live in the reality that when schools are not allowed to teach "you should not murder" you are going to have more killings than if children were taught, universally, that murdering is wrong.


Then you don't actually live in reality.

This, of course, comes as no surprise to off topic regulars.


Why don't I? Is it really that hard for you to accept the more that something is taught and reinforced, the more it will have been learned?


When it comes to the topic of murder -- yes. I think people generally rationally know that murder is wrong; that idea runs through our society. People already know that murder is basically the ultimate evil. Constantly telling them that can't make them know it any more, and it doesn't do anything to change the completely external reasons why things like school shootings happen. If you want to stop them from happening, you either need to take away the weapons, or find a way to stop the motivating factors.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby AAFitz on Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:07 pm

Neoteny wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
MegaProphet wrote:I might watch it, but I rather see the Story of All of Us

Image


Indeed that's the story of every country, the story of all of us.

Every country has held slaves and battled with indiginous peeps.


Some more than others.

In any case, the indiginous peeps in our case, were more slaughtered by the black plague than they were us. As in all other countries with "indiginous peeps" they would most likely have a massive presence, if not have kept the invaders out, if it were not for the plague having something like an 80% mortality rate with Native Americans.

By the way phatty...the use of the phrase; "battled with indiginous peeps"... makes you a POS :D

I hope you someday get to be that type of peep.


FWIW, I believe you meant "smallpox" instead of "plague."


I was misled by this: I assumed by "the plague" they meant the black one, not the small one. My bad, and thanks for that info.

Just two years before the pilgrims started the tape recorder on New England's written history, the plague wiped out about 96 percent of the Indians in Massachusetts.

In the years before the plague turned America into The Stand, a sailor named Giovanni da Verrazzano sailed up the East Coast and described it as "densely populated" and so "smoky with Indian bonfires" that you could smell them burning hundreds of miles out at sea. Using your history books to understand what America was like in the 100 years after Columbus landed there is like trying to understand what modern day Manhattan is like based on the post-apocalyptic scenes from I Am Legend.


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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:09 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I live in the reality that when schools are not allowed to teach "you should not murder" you are going to have more killings than if children were taught, universally, that murdering is wrong.


Then you don't actually live in reality.

This, of course, comes as no surprise to off topic regulars.


Why don't I? Is it really that hard for you to accept the more that something is taught and reinforced, the more it will have been learned?


When it comes to the topic of murder -- yes. I think people generally rationally know that murder is wrong; that idea runs through our society. People already know that murder is basically the ultimate evil. Constantly telling them that can't make them know it any more, and it doesn't do anything to change the completely external reasons why things like school shootings happen. If you want to stop them from happening, you either need to take away the weapons, or find a way to stop the motivating factors.


Fascinating. Why do you think people generally rationally know that murder is wrong? Is that it, "just cuz it's wrong"?

Do you think the reality that the first Commandment is "thou shall not murder" has something to do with it?

Does the same apply for math? or any other subject or field or perspective? "I know math, so constantly studying math doesn't change anything"?
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:54 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Fascinating. Why do you think people generally rationally know that murder is wrong? Is that it, "just cuz it's wrong"?


I think murder is wrong, and I don't particularly care what the "first commandment" is. How do you explain me?
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:05 pm

I have some semi-related questions that I really don't need answers to.

- Will the Turks, Germans, or Italians be paying me reparations (no drachma please)?
- Will the Romans?
- Is the per capita murder rate greater now than it was in 1790? Why?

I will check out the show if only because the History Channel so rarely has history on it.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:03 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Fascinating. Why do you think people generally rationally know that murder is wrong? Is that it, "just cuz it's wrong"?


I think murder is wrong, and I don't particularly care what the "first commandment" is. How do you explain me?


How do you know murder is wrong?
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:10 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Fascinating. Why do you think people generally rationally know that murder is wrong? Is that it, "just cuz it's wrong"?


I think murder is wrong, and I don't particularly care what the "first commandment" is. How do you explain me?


How do you know murder is wrong?


One can construct such a principle through Kant's categorical imperative, or any equivalent universalizing principle of ethics. Simply put, I would not want to be murdered, so I do not murder others. It is the golden rule.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Symmetry on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:10 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I live in the reality that when schools are not allowed to teach "you should not murder" you are going to have more killings than if children were taught, universally, that murdering is wrong.


Then you don't actually live in reality.

This, of course, comes as no surprise to off topic regulars.


...so says an actual Nazi


That's kind of a crazy accusation, even by your weird standards.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:50 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Fascinating. Why do you think people generally rationally know that murder is wrong? Is that it, "just cuz it's wrong"?


I think murder is wrong, and I don't particularly care what the "first commandment" is. How do you explain me?


How do you know murder is wrong?


One can construct such a principle through Kant's categorical imperative, or any equivalent universalizing principle of ethics. Simply put, I would not want to be murdered, so I do not murder others. It is the golden rule.


What were Kant's ideas influenced by?
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:52 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I live in the reality that when schools are not allowed to teach "you should not murder" you are going to have more killings than if children were taught, universally, that murdering is wrong.


Then you don't actually live in reality.

This, of course, comes as no surprise to off topic regulars.


...so says an actual Nazi


That's kind of a crazy accusation, even by your weird standards.


yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Nazism is a socialist party, and they weren't afraid to use force to hammer their politics and philosophies onto other people.......Mets is right up that alley pal (as one of the hardest left posters we have here). He might even admit he is a Socialist.

You're a hypocrite
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:01 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Fascinating. Why do you think people generally rationally know that murder is wrong? Is that it, "just cuz it's wrong"?


I think murder is wrong, and I don't particularly care what the "first commandment" is. How do you explain me?


How do you know murder is wrong?


One can construct such a principle through Kant's categorical imperative, or any equivalent universalizing principle of ethics. Simply put, I would not want to be murdered, so I do not murder others. It is the golden rule.


What were Kant's ideas influenced by?


Kant was the one of the first, if not the first, to recognize that this idea is independent of moral system; for an ethical argument to truly say something of importance, it must be universalizable. The categorical imperative is based on the requirement that a moral system must have universal characteristics. Since Kant, many deontological and utilitarian philosophers alike have made this a requirement of their ethics.

This has nothing to do with any particular moral system. The difficult part of ethics is deciding which universal rules we want to follow, in particular. Fortunately, the rule that we don't murder adult humans is an easy one that nearly everyone agrees to, religious or not.

Incidentally, it's not particularly easy to make the argument that Kant was in any way a traditional Christian, so I wouldn't go that way if I were you.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:04 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I live in the reality that when schools are not allowed to teach "you should not murder" you are going to have more killings than if children were taught, universally, that murdering is wrong.


Then you don't actually live in reality.

This, of course, comes as no surprise to off topic regulars.


...so says an actual Nazi


That's kind of a crazy accusation, even by your weird standards.


yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Nazism is a socialist party, and they weren't afraid to use force to hammer their politics and philosophies onto other people.......Mets is right up that alley pal (as one of the hardest left posters we have here). He might even admit he is a Socialist.

You're a hypocrite


Really now? Nazism is an example of socialism? Please, tell me more.

Also, this may surprise you, but there are in fact variants of socialism that do not take racial superiority of one particular ethnic group as a central tenet of their ideas.
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:05 am

It's easy because God said it was wrong, and, I will only speak for Christians here, but Christians with an ounce of exposure to the Bible have heard from God for thousands of years the murder is wrong.

You want to give Kant all the credit, go ahead. But maybe Kant was just trying to find a way to take God out of the equation, for other reasons than wanting to be objective or of genuine care...
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:07 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I live in the reality that when schools are not allowed to teach "you should not murder" you are going to have more killings than if children were taught, universally, that murdering is wrong.


Then you don't actually live in reality.

This, of course, comes as no surprise to off topic regulars.


...so says an actual Nazi


That's kind of a crazy accusation, even by your weird standards.


yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Nazism is a socialist party, and they weren't afraid to use force to hammer their politics and philosophies onto other people.......Mets is right up that alley pal (as one of the hardest left posters we have here). He might even admit he is a Socialist.

You're a hypocrite


Really now? Nazism is an example of socialism? Please, tell me more.


wow. Really? OKAY!

NAZI = National Socialist Workers' Party

I can understand now how you have been so ignorant of this. You did not know what a nazi is
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:09 am

Phatscotty wrote:It's easy because God said it was wrong, and, I will only speak for Christians here, but Christians with an ounce of exposure to the Bible have heard from God for thousands of years the murder is wrong.

You want to give Kant all the credit, go ahead. But maybe Kant was just trying to find a way to take God out of the equation, for other reasons than wanting to be objective or of genuine care...


Kant was just one of many who recognized that there is a logical way to construct the principle that "murder is wrong" without appealing to God. You may deny the existence of such an argument if you want, but I'd be interested to see how you can explain that most atheists don't go off killing people left and right.

Phatscotty wrote:wow. Really? OKAY!

NAZI = National Socialist German Workers' Party

I can understand now how you have been so ignorant of this. You did not know what a nazi is


Clearly you feel that reading the name of a political philosophy is enough to adequately explain how it works. You might be better served reading a bit about how the Nazi party worked, though. You'll be surprised, evidently.

I'll give you a hint: the first three paragraphs of the Wikipedia entry on Nazism are enough.
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:13 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:It's easy because God said it was wrong, and, I will only speak for Christians here, but Christians with an ounce of exposure to the Bible have heard from God for thousands of years the murder is wrong.

You want to give Kant all the credit, go ahead. But maybe Kant was just trying to find a way to take God out of the equation, for other reasons than wanting to be objective or of genuine care...


Kant was just one of many who recognized that there is a logical way to construct the principle that "murder is wrong" without appealing to God. You may deny the existence of such an argument if you want, but I'd be interested to see how you can explain that most atheists don't go off killing people left and right.

Phatscotty wrote:wow. Really? OKAY!

NAZI = National Socialist German Workers' Party

I can understand now how you have been so ignorant of this. You did not know what a nazi is


Clearly you feel that reading the name of a political philosophy is enough to adequately explain how it works. You might be better served reading a bit about how the Nazi party worked, though. You'll be surprised, evidently.

I'll give you a hint: the first three paragraphs of the Wikipedia entry on Nazism are enough.


WHOA WHOA WHOA! All you asked was how Nazi's was an example of Socialism. I pointed out to you that they named themselves Socialists.
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:14 am

Phatscotty wrote:WHOA WHOA WHOA! All you asked was how Nazi's was an example of Socialism. I pointed out to you that "Socialist" is right in their name.


And yet, despite this, Nazism was incredibly far from being socialism. Again, I recommend that you read a bit about World War II if you are confused on this point.
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:15 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:WHOA WHOA WHOA! All you asked was how Nazi's was an example of Socialism. I pointed out to you that "Socialist" is right in their name.


And yet, despite this, Nazism was incredibly far from being socialism. Again, I recommend that you read a bit about World War II if you are confused on this point.


Why did they name themselves Socialist? I will understand if your point is that Socialism did not work out they way you imagine it should have, or something went tragically wrong along the way, or the Nazi's took "progress" a little too literally.
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:18 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:WHOA WHOA WHOA! All you asked was how Nazi's was an example of Socialism. I pointed out to you that "Socialist" is right in their name.


And yet, despite this, Nazism was incredibly far from being socialism. Again, I recommend that you read a bit about World War II if you are confused on this point.


Why did they name themselves Socialist? I will understand if your point is that Socialism did not work out they way you imagine it should have, or something went tragically wrong along the way, or the Nazi's took "progress" a little too literally.


They named themselves "socialist" at a time when it was very important to appear to be anti-Marxist, but it is widely accepted that most of the party platform about socialism was nothing more than lip service. The Nazi party was fascist, and there's not much debate about this.
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:21 am

So, the were literally named socialists and self proclaimed socialists, but technically, they were not socialists. I understand how fascism plays into it, but fascism can go both ways, and by no means gets the Nazi's off the hook as a national socialist workers party.
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:30 am

Phatscotty wrote:So, the were literally named socialists and self proclaimed socialists, but technically, they were not socialists. I understand how fascism plays into it, but fascism can go both ways, and by no means gets the Nazi's off the hook as a national socialist workers party.


Yes, they were named socialists and claimed to be socialists, but I shall quote a wise man:

saxitoxin wrote:If I shit in a box and called it marzipan, would you eat it?
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:34 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:So, the were literally named socialists and self proclaimed socialists, but technically, they were not socialists. I understand how fascism plays into it, but fascism can go both ways, and by no means gets the Nazi's off the hook as a national socialist workers party.


Yes, they were named socialists and claimed to be socialists, but I shall quote a wise man:

saxitoxin wrote:If I shit in a box and called it marzipan, would you eat it?


That doesn't mean anything. I could also put marzipan in a box, and call it marzipan, and if you ate it, you would be eating marzipan.

Just because it's possible that it could be a piece of shit in the box, does not mean that we should assume there is always a piece of shit in the box. In fact, 99% of the time, whatever it says is in the box is usually in the box. To rest on the 1% possibility as some kind of argument is a cop out

But you may continue arguing that the national socialist workers party had nothing whatsoever to do with socialism
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