Unions Shut Down Hostess

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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby GreecePwns on Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:07 pm

The illogical right blamed the unions initially, the left (and logical right) countered saying management was using pay cuts as a way to increase their salaries, the illogical right had nothing after that.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:11 pm

Well, it's not very illogical for me. If my job wanted to cut me 5%, I wouldn't walk out. Maybe I would start looking around or something, but when I worked at a union job, we were taking cuts every year. Cuts in pay, cuts in benefits, giving up raises. the main reason it wasn't a big deal to me was because I was earning a damn good wage, and I had a super hot girlfriend that I was trying to marry and she was very expensive...
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby GreecePwns on Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:59 pm

If you're being told to take pay cuts knowing the cuts will be put to good use, like paying the bills and keeping the shop open or something - that's one thing.

If you're being told to take pay cuts knowing the cuts will be put toward increasing the salary of an incompetent management (it's a fact, the company was run horribly and the previous pay cuts were went straight to the pockets of management) - then you don't.

Conservatives believe it's so easy for the unemployed to work harder and they'll eventually find a job, don't they? Why wouldn't they accept the belief by the union workers that they can do better with their limited time, like a more fulfilling job with management that isn't forcing workers to take pay cuts specifically so they can line their own pockets and contribute nothing to turning the company around?

One could make an argument that an investigation should be made proving whether or not management was doing this intentionally knowing Hostess was a sinking sink ship and taking whatever money they could before it completely went under.

Of course, this conversation wouldn't be happening if the workers were the management.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:31 pm

Phatscotty wrote:seems to be that we are placing the blame based on politics. The left blames the management/ownership, the right blames the union employees.

Everything is political starting now!


Im not blaming it on politics. Im blaming people like you for making everything political. :roll:

I haven't blamed the demise on anyone. I know its probably a combination of many factors, and that this entire discussion was started with an absolutely absurd premise and title, as many nightstrikes are.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:33 pm

GreecePwns wrote:If you're being told to take pay cuts knowing the cuts will be put to good use, like paying the bills and keeping the shop open or something - that's one thing.

If you're being told to take pay cuts knowing the cuts will be put toward increasing the salary of an incompetent management (it's a fact, the company was run horribly and the previous pay cuts were went straight to the pockets of management) - then you don't.


Is that what the employees as hostess were told? Forgive me if I missed it earlier.

GreecePwns wrote:Conservatives believe it's so easy for the unemployed to work harder and they'll eventually find a job, don't they? Why wouldn't they accept the belief by the union workers that they can do better with their limited time, like a more fulfilling job with management that isn't forcing workers to take pay cuts specifically so they can line their own pockets and contribute nothing to turning the company around?


I'm not sure if that is a Conservative belief, but I believe that, yes. An able bodied person, in the current environment, absolutely can find "a" job. I think the main hang up, in my experience, is that many people can't find the job they want. I'm not sure anybody thinks it's easy. I don't agree with that part. Getting up in the morning to go to work is not "easy" either, so......
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:38 pm

AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:seems to be that we are placing the blame based on politics. The left blames the management/ownership, the right blames the union employees.

Everything is political starting now!


Im not blaming it on politics. Im blaming people like you for making everything political. :roll:

I haven't blamed the demise on anyone. I know its probably a combination of many factors, and that this entire discussion was started with an absolutely absurd premise and title, as many nightstrikes are.


Well, in all honesty, the union employees could have taken one for the team, right?
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby warmonger1981 on Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:40 pm

i heard Hostess got some bail out money from the government a few years back and then the upper management gave themselves up to an 80% pay raise or bonus. has anyone heard this? i heard it from a progressive tv show by Thom Hartman a few months ago..
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:42 pm

warmonger1981 wrote:i heard Hostess got some bail out money from the government a few years back and then the upper management gave themselves up to an 80% pay raise or bonus. has anyone heard this? i heard it from a progressive tv show by Thom Hartman a few months ago..


If true, obviously that's total bullshit and unacceptable....but.....Isn't that what happened with all the bailout money with the other companies as well?

The corruption government intervention breeds is just one small reason why I have been against all government "bailouts" from day 1
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby GreecePwns on Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:47 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Is that what the employees as hostess were told? Forgive me if I missed it earlier.

Of course they weren't told that outright. But that's exactly what has happened and what would have happened, as shown directly above.
Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.

Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby patches70 on Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:55 pm

GreecePwns wrote:
Of course, this conversation wouldn't be happening if the workers were the management.


What makes you think that?

An unprofitable business is unprofitable. You ignore all the other factors. By God, with the way people carry on about how fat Americans are then it's a good thing Hostess has gone the way of the dinosaur. Make up your minds people, Jesus.

Everybody is looking at it through their own lens of world view and it's ridiculous. Companies go bust all the time for a whole host of reasons, never for a single reason other than the product they produce becomes obsolete. The twinkie isn't obsolete, it's unhealthy.
Someone like a Michelle Obama, if she could, would have such things banned outright if she were able, and where does that leave the people who produce such things? On the street, of course.

And there is nothing wrong with private sector unions. A company has them, then fine, it's not like public sector unions.

If you look at the private sector union membership, you'll see that it spiked there just before and just after WWII and then has been in a steady decline ever since and is today at the lowest membership levels ever.
Those who think Unions are the shizznit will try to convince everyone that it's some evil plot to destroy the working class. This is untrue.

If you sit down and assign an arbitrary rate for pay and benefits, arbitrary rules on how the business must operate, then you hamstring yourself into being unable to change and adapt quickly to changing market conditions.
This is what has happened to Hostess.

For a company to stay in business, unionized or otherwise, that company must stay efficient, productive and above all, profitable.
The shareholders must be paid. The contracts must be honored, that includes the contracts with workers and management. The debts and expenses must be paid. And after all that then the company still has to be able to compete in the market place against rivals.
Hostess has been unable to do that.

The reason the private union membership has dropped to all time lows is because it adds expense and hurts efficiency. Those companies that were once unionized go bankrupt and have to close their doors before the companies that have more flexibility to change and adapt quicker. The bad processes are driven out, those processes that work survive.

If you think that unions are the only way to keep workers getting livable wages, then you are ignoring that earning livable wages is not possible just because you make a rule saying they must be paid. If what is being produced cannot earn enough money to pay those wages (on top of all the other things that the worker's never have to worry about*), then the business will not be in business for very long.

I'm not saying private unions are bad, it is what it is. I am saying that the unionized process is slower to adapt to the changing market conditions and such a thing is fatal to companies. This ultimately leads to what is happening to Hostess today.

But the sycophants and people with agendas will do everything they can to deflect and blame others for what is simply just a natural consequence.
It's nobody's fault. It just is. Hostess went belly up. Big Fucking Deal. Fat bastards will still get twinkies or their equivalent, the former Hostess employees (including management, who also are losing their jobs) will either find new jobs and be better for it in the long run with a better company or they'll mire in anger and angst. Either way, it's up to the individual to figure their own way through hard times.

Cause hard times always come and no union, nor company (no matter how well run), no government, no preacher, no priest, no doctor or anyone else can change that.


*You know, the initial capital required to even start the business, the financing, the expenses like power and material, complying with regulation, obtaining the permits and licenses, and all the other stuff that has to be taken care of that the worker is never responsible for.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:01 pm

GreecePwns wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Is that what the employees as hostess were told? Forgive me if I missed it earlier.

Of course they weren't told that outright. But that's exactly what has happened and what would have happened, as shown directly above.


When you say "shown above" are you referring to Warmonger saying he thought he heard something on one of the most biased shows in existence?
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Evil Semp on Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:05 pm

Here is the article posted earlier about the pay increases for management. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/1 ... 47043.html


Phatscotty wrote:Well, in all honesty, the union employees could have taken one for the team, right?


As far as taking one for the team. When management receives the same compensation package [insurance, stock options, vacation, etc, etc] as the workers then the workers might have been more willing to take the pay cuts. Yeah management took a pay cut but after the raises they received they could afford it.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:09 pm

Evil Semp wrote:Here is the article posted earlier about the pay increases for management. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/1 ... 47043.html


Phatscotty wrote:Well, in all honesty, the union employees could have taken one for the team, right?


As far as taking one for the team. When management receives the same compensation package [insurance, stock options, vacation, etc, etc] as the workers then the workers might have been more willing to take the pay cuts. Yeah management took a pay cut but after the raises they received they could afford it.


ty
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:27 pm

patches70 wrote:
For a company to stay in business, unionized or otherwise, that company must stay efficient, productive and above all, profitable.
The shareholders must be paid. The contracts must be honored, that includes the contracts with workers and management. The debts and expenses must be paid. And after all that then the company still has to be able to compete in the market place against rivals.
Hostess has been unable to do that.

The reason the private union membership has dropped to all time lows is because it adds expense and hurts efficiency. Those companies that were once unionized go bankrupt and have to close their doors before the companies that have more flexibility to change and adapt quicker. The bad processes are driven out, those processes that work survive.

Then how could Unions have ever existed in the first place, let alone grow.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:30 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Evil Semp wrote:Here is the article posted earlier about the pay increases for management. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/1 ... 47043.html


Phatscotty wrote:Well, in all honesty, the union employees could have taken one for the team, right?


As far as taking one for the team. When management receives the same compensation package [insurance, stock options, vacation, etc, etc] as the workers then the workers might have been more willing to take the pay cuts. Yeah management took a pay cut but after the raises they received they could afford it.


ty


wait a sec. Are you saying that the top management level should have the same compensation as the minimum wage/no skill level positions? I don't think that will ever happen, not even in a Marxist Utopia

whether or not they can afford it, I don't see how you could possibly have any information knowing if that is true or not.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:36 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:seems to be that we are placing the blame based on politics. The left blames the management/ownership, the right blames the union employees.

Everything is political starting now!


Im not blaming it on politics. Im blaming people like you for making everything political. :roll:

I haven't blamed the demise on anyone. I know its probably a combination of many factors, and that this entire discussion was started with an absolutely absurd premise and title, as many nightstrikes are.


Well, in all honesty, the union employees could have taken one for the team, right?


You realize the entire idea of taking one for the team is essentially communism right? :lol:
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:41 pm

AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:seems to be that we are placing the blame based on politics. The left blames the management/ownership, the right blames the union employees.

Everything is political starting now!


Im not blaming it on politics. Im blaming people like you for making everything political. :roll:

I haven't blamed the demise on anyone. I know its probably a combination of many factors, and that this entire discussion was started with an absolutely absurd premise and title, as many nightstrikes are.


Well, in all honesty, the union employees could have taken one for the team, right?


You realize the entire idea of taking one for the team is essentially communism right? :lol:


:?:

I took one for the team last night so my buddy could get laid...nobody called me a Communist tho

It was a voluntary action on my part. Nice dodge though
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby patches70 on Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:19 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:Then how could Unions have ever existed in the first place, let alone grow.


Because conditions are different now than when unions began forming.

That's the point I'm making, changing conditions always require changing responses. Unions are slow to change, are they not?

At it's peak (in the 1940's) the private labor unions were about 34% of workers were in a union. Public sector union membership at the same time was around 10%.

In 2009, the number was 7% of workers were in a labor union. At the same time, public union membership is around 36%.

show


As I've said, I have no problem at all with private unions. I just think individuals should be given a choice, though, and I suppose they do in a way. That is, one should not be required to join a union. However, if a company requires that it's workers be in a union and an individual wishes not to be, then the individual need not work there.

But that's a whole other issue.

One of the biggest killers of private labor unions is, Globalization. It's ironic, the very people who are all gaga over unions and just think they are great, are also the very people who say things like "The US needs to start being part of the World community instead of trying to rule over it", or "The UN should hold precedence over the Constitution" or the anti-nationalistic or those who don't believe in State sovereignty above that of global institutions (like the UN) and other such pro globalization stances.

It's hard for US companies which often enough by union contract must pay for generous benefits and wages (which is all good, a deal is a deal, after all) but in other nations, with whom these companies must compete, don't give a rat's azz about such things.
What would be considered a living wage in someplace, like India, is far different than what you would call a living wage.

Thus, the unionized companies, unable to compete with other companies based in countries with much cheaper labor costs (because that's what unions are in many ways, labor costs) go out of business or leave the country. Either way, all those unions jobs go away, don't they?

If you think about it, complaining that a place like China is unfair to it's workers, is ironic being as everyone is supposedly treated the same. There is no need for labor unions in China, because after all, it was the workers who are supposedly in charge (though we know the truth, don't we?). Theoretically.

Even if these other nations were forced by the WTO to create labor unions, do you think the demands in those nations would be the same as those in the US? Where our workers would need, IDK, what's a livable wage these days? I guess it depends on the region, but lets say it $20 an hour. In some third world nation, the equivalent cost would be something like $5 an hour, and the workers would think it's great. Especially as many of you have noted, the people in many other nations of the world make it by with mere pennies on the dollar what the typical family in the US needs.

Just sayin' is all. The unions operate in a vacuum, or try to at least. The Union is supposed to get the most they can for the worker, despite what the conditions around the world would dictate what the wages and benefits can be and still maintain a business. The union has a narrow view, but there are always factors outside that view that affect companies and the workers. And often enough it's out of the control of the companies and the unions and the workers.



The Hostess people walked off the job. Hostess went Kaput. So what's the problem? The workers walked off the job, they took a risk, didn't they? It didn't pay off this time. But it's ok because now those workers can find new jobs, possibly better jobs, depending on the individual and the skill sets they possess.
After all, isn't the economy improving?
Isn't that what we are told, that's the line of the Central Government? That things are working? That the Administrations economic plans are bearing fruit?
If so, then no worries, these people will find jobs and in the grand scheme of things people will be better off (so long as the propaganda we are being fed is true....)

And that's what it really comes down to. The skills of the individual. The more skills one has the greater opportunities life offers. Those who are unskilled are going to have a much harder time making it. And there is nothing truly unfair about that, that's just the consequences individuals must face for their own decisions.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:22 pm

Unions in general are a good idea and a good thing. Unions that grow into monsters and start shutting out younger workers and put their own interests in front of student education or profitability and are run by Socialists and Communists are a bad thing.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Symmetry on Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:37 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Unions in general are a good idea and a good thing. Unions that grow into monsters and start shutting out younger workers and put their own interests in front of student education or profitability and are run by Socialists and Communists are a bad thing.


Who should Unions be run by Scotty?
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:45 pm

patches70 wrote:Because conditions are different now than when unions began forming.

That's the point I'm making, changing conditions always require changing responses. Unions are slow to change, are they not?

No, That's far to general. Unions are quick to change. That is why they have all been agreeing to pay and benefits cuts for their members since the financial collapse.
Conditions are different today than they were yesterday, so that's not saying anything. The only thing that's truly changed is the people's mindset. Unions appeared in a flash of a few years, and big business has been fighting a propaganda campaign ever since. And they're winning. But we've obviously returned to the same worker/employer disparity that we had in the 1900s that brought about Unions in the first place. We're talking about a large company that tried to force it's workers to give up their earned pay so that the managers could get bigger raises.

America is a Union, and we still exist, even though conditions have changed.

I disagree with your peak timeline, and Unions have grown since then in other country which are technologically and financially sound. Germany has a stronger Union membership than the US, Canada has more than double the members the US has, and most Finnish workers are in a Union.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Evil Semp on Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:55 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Evil Semp wrote:Here is the article posted earlier about the pay increases for management. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/1 ... 47043.html


Phatscotty wrote:Well, in all honesty, the union employees could have taken one for the team, right?


As far as taking one for the team. When management receives the same compensation package [insurance, stock options, vacation, etc, etc] as the workers then the workers might have been more willing to take the pay cuts. Yeah management took a pay cut but after the raises they received they could afford it.


ty


wait a sec. Are you saying that the top management level should have the same compensation as the minimum wage/no skill level positions? I don't think that will ever happen, not even in a Marxist Utopia


I agree it will never happen. If I was a member of that union and management took the same compensation package that I was getting it would convince me that they were willing to "take one for the team.". If rank and file members can live on their pay after the cuts why can't management?

Phatscotty wrote:whether or not they can afford it, I don't see how you could possibly have any information knowing if that is true or not.


I don't know if they can afford it anymore than you can expect the rank and file to live on reduced wages. If members of management can't survive or afford to live on what their employees make maybe you can introduce them to some of the people you know.

Phatscotty wrote:Also, i know people who make it a point to make less than 16k a year and goes on cruises, has a twice a week casino addiction, a flat screen in every room, and when she buys her kids a game for PS3, she gets 2 copies of the same game, so they don't have to share. So that's 16k..... you are way off about 28k barely covering the cost of living.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby patches70 on Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:14 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:No, That's far to general. Unions are quick to change. That is why they have all been agreeing to pay and benefits cuts for their members since the financial collapse.
Conditions are different today than they were yesterday, so that's not saying anything. The only thing that's truly changed is the people's mindset. Unions appeared in a flash of a few years, and big business has been fighting a propaganda campaign ever since. And they're winning.


The evil plot, then is it? There is a much more logical reason, just see below.

Juan wrote: But we've obviously returned to the same worker/employer disparity that we had in the 1900s that brought about Unions in the first place.


Yes, we are as bad off as people were in the 1900's. :roll:

You don't think it has anything to do with the plunging value of the dollar, do you? Scratch that, don't answer, you wouldn't make any sense anyway.

Juan wrote: We're talking about a large company that tried to force it's workers to give up their earned pay so that the managers could get bigger raises.


If we are talking about Hostess, then why are you bringing up-
Juan wrote:Germany has a stronger Union membership than the US, Canada has more than double the members the US has, and most Finnish workers are in a Union.


Try to stay on subject. Who cares what the managers got? There is another reason, a much more simple reason Hostess went out of business, just read on.

Juan wrote:America is a Union, and we still exist, even though conditions have changed.


And you believe that will never change?

juan wrote:I disagree with your peak timeline, and Unions have grown since then in other country which are technologically and financially sound. Germany has a stronger Union membership than the US, Canada has more than double the members the US has, and most Finnish workers are in a Union.


Now you know full well that I was talking about US labor unions. Are you trying to say that US labor unions are growing? Because the facts don't support that.

What does the union membership of Germany and what ever other nations you want to list have to do with the poor bastards who were working at Hostess?
Not a damn thing.
Again, try to stay on topic.


It's all the same with you demagogues, always have to cast someone as the villain. When are you ever going to grow up? A business went under. It happens. It's like a messy divorce in a lot of ways. But if the parties involved are wise, then in the long run they'll be better off.
Of course it stings right now. Especially for the workers who walked off the job. Sure they had their reasons, so what? The company is being liquidated, they lost their jobs. Is anyone saying that these workers didn't know this could happen? If so, the naive nature of people is quite telling.

Now, the real reason Hostess went under-
When I was a kid all we ever had was Hostess products. Guess what? Hostess products now are crap. Wonder Bread is nasty, twinkies suck, every product they created was just terrible. I didn't spend a single cent on Hostess products, for decades.

If you want someone to blame, blame people like me. I think Hostess sucked and refused to buy their products. I myself had more to do with all those people losing their jobs than anything else. And guess what? That's the nature of business. Should I have spent my hard earned money buying something I hate just so someone can keep their job?
Screw that.
Make a better product and thrive. Make crap and go out of business. Screw the workers, the managers, the whole company. They made crap. And that's the reason Hostess is gone now. Because people like me found other products that we liked much better and we found to be a better value.

You talk about worker disparity and all that jazz and ignore that large swaths of the consumer gave the thumbs down to Hostess. So tell me, how much money should a person get paid to produce an inferior product?

Welcome to the market bitchezz.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:46 pm

Evil Semp wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Evil Semp wrote:Here is the article posted earlier about the pay increases for management. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/1 ... 47043.html


Phatscotty wrote:Well, in all honesty, the union employees could have taken one for the team, right?


As far as taking one for the team. When management receives the same compensation package [insurance, stock options, vacation, etc, etc] as the workers then the workers might have been more willing to take the pay cuts. Yeah management took a pay cut but after the raises they received they could afford it.


ty


wait a sec. Are you saying that the top management level should have the same compensation as the minimum wage/no skill level positions? I don't think that will ever happen, not even in a Marxist Utopia


I agree it will never happen. If I was a member of that union and management took the same compensation package that I was getting it would convince me that they were willing to "take one for the team.". If rank and file members can live on their pay after the cuts why can't management?

Phatscotty wrote:whether or not they can afford it, I don't see how you could possibly have any information knowing if that is true or not.


I don't know if they can afford it anymore than you can expect the rank and file to live on reduced wages. If members of management can't survive or afford to live on what their employees make maybe you can introduce them to some of the people you know.


#1 good point
#2 I know that earning a wage is better than being unemployed. I also know that what people say they can and can't afford is highly subjective and usually based on lifestyle and comfort levels. (excluding minimum wage/no skill jobs)

Also, if management level employees are going to have to get the same benefit packages or salary as their employees under them, then they are going to have the shittiest management in the world. Nobody will want to do that job when they can do less/stress less/work fewer hours.put in less effort for the same pay, and the company probably would have never got off the ground in the first place.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby GreecePwns on Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:53 pm

I wouldn't argue them making the same wages as much as I would argue them taking the same percent pay cuts (instead of increasing their salaries several times over).
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