Unions Shut Down Hostess

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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Evil Semp on Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:59 pm

Phatscotty wrote:I might agree, but that doesn't mean that they are. The upper management took 99.9% paycuts to keep the company running, in this case...


When did they take those pay cuts? The cuts were only in effect until Dec. 31. Would the employee pay cuts only be in effect until Dec. 31? Only four executives under the CEO agreed to have their pay cut to $1. Others agreed to have their pay brought back to the level it was at before the raises. Permanent pay cuts for the workers and temporary cuts for the executives. Sounds fair to me.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/hostess.asp
http://radicalruss.com/hostess-ceo-greg ... f-company/
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:11 am

Evil Semp wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I might agree, but that doesn't mean that they are. The upper management took 99.9% paycuts to keep the company running, in this case...


When did they take those pay cuts? The cuts were only in effect until Dec. 31. Would the employee pay cuts only be in effect until Dec. 31? Only four executives under the CEO agreed to have their pay cut to $1. Others agreed to have their pay brought back to the level it was at before the raises. Permanent pay cuts for the workers and temporary cuts for the executives. Sounds fair to me.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/hostess.asp
http://radicalruss.com/hostess-ceo-greg ... f-company/


we've already decided that nothing the management does or did do or could do would be good enough....

Regardless, they took a lot of cuts. They took one for the team. Of course they are not going to make 1$ a year forever (think of all the tax revenue lost! :o ) And of course it's a short term plan. when the company is teetering on the brink of solvency, everything is short term. They didn't even make it to December 31st, so I don't see any point making a issue about "only taking the cuts till dec 31st" and I would put more stock into "now its the other sides turn to take one for the team" The workers did not, so they did not make it to dec 31st

Now none of them have jobs. Now there are no tax revenues being generated
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:30 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Evil Semp wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I might agree, but that doesn't mean that they are. The upper management took 99.9% paycuts to keep the company running, in this case...


When did they take those pay cuts? The cuts were only in effect until Dec. 31. Would the employee pay cuts only be in effect until Dec. 31? Only four executives under the CEO agreed to have their pay cut to $1. Others agreed to have their pay brought back to the level it was at before the raises. Permanent pay cuts for the workers and temporary cuts for the executives. Sounds fair to me.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/hostess.asp
http://radicalruss.com/hostess-ceo-greg ... f-company/


we've already decided that nothing the management does or did do or could do would be good enough....



Actually, it seems management decided on that, not anyone else.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:31 am

Phatscotty wrote:Now none of them have jobs. Now there are no tax revenues being generated


Again with your communist notions, pinkoscotty. :roll:
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:33 am

AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Now none of them have jobs. Now there are no tax revenues being generated


Again with your communist notions, pinkoscotty. :roll:


the comment is for the communist, not from one

hurry up and get over whatever bullshit you are on lately. You make lots of good posts and the kind you make lately distract from that
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:34 am

Phatscotty wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Now none of them have jobs. Now there are no tax revenues being generated


Again with your communist notions, pinkoscotty. :roll:


the comment is for the communist, not from one


Choose to believe what you want, but if you truly understood capitalism and communism, you'd understand your notion is communistic at its very core. Mind you, Im not even suggesting that you're wrong per-se, only that the entire idea reeks of communism.
Last edited by AAFitz on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:35 am

AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Now none of them have jobs. Now there are no tax revenues being generated


Again with your communist notions, pinkoscotty. :roll:


the comment is for the communist, not from one


Choose to believe what you want, but if you truly understood capitalism and communism, you'd understand your notion is communistic at its very core.


I would be interested to hear you speak on that in more detail
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:37 am

Phatscotty wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Now none of them have jobs. Now there are no tax revenues being generated


Again with your communist notions, pinkoscotty. :roll:


the comment is for the communist, not from one


Choose to believe what you want, but if you truly understood capitalism and communism, you'd understand your notion is communistic at its very core.


I would be interested to hear you speak on that in more detail


Simple. Capitalism is people working to make their situation better for themselves. Communism is everyone working to make the community better.

I could go on and explain in detail, but clearly you dont even understand capitalism on a basic level, so Ill start with the beginners course.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:40 am

AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Now none of them have jobs. Now there are no tax revenues being generated


Again with your communist notions, pinkoscotty. :roll:


the comment is for the communist, not from one


Choose to believe what you want, but if you truly understood capitalism and communism, you'd understand your notion is communistic at its very core.


I would be interested to hear you speak on that in more detail


Simple. Capitalism is people working to make their situation better for themselves. Communism is everyone working to make the community better.


How does that relate to this topic? or anything I have said?
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:45 am

Phatscotty wrote:How does that relate to this topic?


You just asked me to explain why your comments were communistic, and I did. You suggesting they should even consider taking one for the team, or lost tax revenue is communistic by its very nature, whereas as capitalists none of those concerns should matter in the decision making process, because capitalism is based on people doing whats best for them individually, which in turn makes everything better overall...

Its awesome that you don't even see it. It should have been obvious to anyone who pretends to be a capitalist and an American as often as you do. It's nice to see your real philosophies are different than your stated ones. Not that its surprising.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby chang50 on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:51 am

AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:How does that relate to this topic?


You just asked me to explain why your comments were communistic, and I did. You suggesting they should even consider taking one for the team, or lost tax revenue is communistic by its very nature, whereas as capitalists none of those concerns should matter in the decision making process, because capitalism is based on people doing whats best for them individually, which in turn makes everything better overall...

Its awesome that you don't even see it. It should have been obvious to anyone who pretends to be a capitalist and an American as often as you do. It's nice to see your real philosophies are different than your stated ones. Not that its surprising.


'Whoosh',that's the sound of your nuanced argument going right over the head of someone..
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:52 am

chang50 wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:How does that relate to this topic?


You just asked me to explain why your comments were communistic, and I did. You suggesting they should even consider taking one for the team, or lost tax revenue is communistic by its very nature, whereas as capitalists none of those concerns should matter in the decision making process, because capitalism is based on people doing whats best for them individually, which in turn makes everything better overall...

Its awesome that you don't even see it. It should have been obvious to anyone who pretends to be a capitalist and an American as often as you do. It's nice to see your real philosophies are different than your stated ones. Not that its surprising.


'Whoosh',that's the sound of your nuanced argument going right over the head of someone..


For my part, I tried to keep it simple at the 101 level.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:01 am

AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:How does that relate to this topic?


You just asked me to explain why your comments were communistic, and I did. You suggesting they should even consider taking one for the team, or lost tax revenue is communistic by its very nature, whereas as capitalists none of those concerns should matter in the decision making process, because capitalism is based on people doing whats best for them individually, which in turn makes everything better overall...

Its awesome that you don't even see it. It should have been obvious to anyone who pretends to be a capitalist and an American as often as you do. It's nice to see your real philosophies are different than your stated ones. Not that its surprising.


no, you defined what capitalism is, in a very narrow and self serving range, and then what Communism was. Then you continued to tell me directly why you weren't going to explain how it relates.

There is no i in team. If you want to do what's best for yourself, sometimes the team concept is best, and sometimes it's not. It's not an either or situation.

The comment you brought up, I already told you, were for the communists. It was meant to appeal to your concerns, not a statement that shows what I am the most concerned about, because it's not my main concern. tax revenue, obviously, is the concern of the left, if the drool drops and your own words mean anything...but don't let that stop you from ignoring the entire topic matter and the context while focusing entirely on one word I used in the last 5 pages...It looks like you are just cheaply declaring yourself the victor on a meaningless and ridiculous point (none of this is about capitalism vs communism, wtf) and now breaking your arm patting yourself on the back, and your gimp thinks it's awesome

chang50 wrote:
'Whoosh',that's the sound of your nuanced argument going right over the head of someone..


Indeed
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:26 am

Phatscotty wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:How does that relate to this topic?


You just asked me to explain why your comments were communistic, and I did. You suggesting they should even consider taking one for the team, or lost tax revenue is communistic by its very nature, whereas as capitalists none of those concerns should matter in the decision making process, because capitalism is based on people doing whats best for them individually, which in turn makes everything better overall...

Its awesome that you don't even see it. It should have been obvious to anyone who pretends to be a capitalist and an American as often as you do. It's nice to see your real philosophies are different than your stated ones. Not that its surprising.


no, you defined what capitalism is, in a very narrow and self serving range, and then what Communism was. Then you continued to tell me directly why you weren't going to explain how it relates.

There is no i in team. If you want to do what's best for yourself, sometimes the team concept is best, and sometimes it's not. It's not an either or situation.

The comment you brought up, I already told you, were for the communists. It was meant to appeal to your concerns, not a statement that shows what I am the most concerned about, because that wouldn't even make sense, since I have been arguing the opposite the entire time....but don't let that stop you from ignoring the entire topic matter and the context while focusing entirely on one word I used in the last 5 pages...It looks like you are just cheaply declaring yourself the victor on a meaningless and ridiculous point (none of this is about capitalism vs communism, wtf) and now breaking your arm patting yourself on the back, and your gimp thinks it's awesome

chang50 wrote:
'Whoosh',that's the sound of your nuanced argument going right over the head of someone..


Indeed


Double indeed. I hardly focused on one term you used, I instead focused on your entire point. It is complex, and there are indeed many factors, and my point is not only that most of your argument here is contradictory, hypocritical, but also, communistic. If you dont think the question of Unions and the demise of a business is worthy of discussions of economic theory, well, I apologize you can't appreciate the importance of them. And again, I only pointed out they were communistic. You are the one that asked me to explain.

As far as declaring myself a victor, I am not. I am just discouraged you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, the actual implications of it, and are so utterly hypocritical while doing so. But, I agree, pointing that out is no victory. You pretty much can take all the credit for that. :D
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby stahrgazer on Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:31 am

AAFitz wrote:You just asked me to explain why your comments were communistic, and I did. You suggesting they should even consider taking one for the team, or lost tax revenue is communistic by its very nature, whereas as capitalists none of those concerns should matter in the decision making process, because capitalism is based on people doing whats best for them individually, which in turn makes everything better overall...

Its awesome that you don't even see it. It should have been obvious to anyone who pretends to be a capitalist and an American as often as you do. It's nice to see your real philosophies are different than your stated ones. Not that its surprising.


Wow! Founding Fathers are turning over in their graves at the belief that they founded American on an, "One for one and f* them all" principle that is so wrong but also so popular to spout these days.

Also, doing something for oneself and only oneself does not make everything better overall.

America was supposed to be about, "United we stand," but this version of "capitalism, capitalism, and only capitalism" is more like the, "divided we fall," part of that saying.

Capitalism without a healthy dose of patriotism or other moral ethics leads to evil.

Having said that, I think the analysts who said the union reps who refused any of Hostess's offer, did it to try to keep wages high in other baking factories they represent, are probably accurate; and I think that the union reps did those they represented at Hostess, a disservice. On the flipside, Hostess management has offered absolutely zero new products to work on stabilizing their decreasing market share. While Twinkies are a nostalgic food, many folks will just as easily buy Little Debbie creme snack cakes - not twinkies, but twinkie-like - but LD doesn't rely just on those cakes, they have a lot of other offerings that people enjoy. So, Hostess management has done its employees a disservice for a while, too.

So, to say the Unions shut down Hostess is ignoring that Hostess management hasn't done very much to keep its brand up, either. BOTH have been wrong, with the employees caught in the middle.

And that's what happens when "capitalism and only capitalism" becomes each side's goal - those without much power get to foot the bill. And THAT is what is anti American, THAT is precisely what our founding fathers fought against.
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