Unions Shut Down Hostess

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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Evil Semp on Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:59 pm

Phatscotty wrote:I might agree, but that doesn't mean that they are. The upper management took 99.9% paycuts to keep the company running, in this case...


When did they take those pay cuts? The cuts were only in effect until Dec. 31. Would the employee pay cuts only be in effect until Dec. 31? Only four executives under the CEO agreed to have their pay cut to $1. Others agreed to have their pay brought back to the level it was at before the raises. Permanent pay cuts for the workers and temporary cuts for the executives. Sounds fair to me.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/hostess.asp
http://radicalruss.com/hostess-ceo-greg ... f-company/
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:11 am

Evil Semp wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I might agree, but that doesn't mean that they are. The upper management took 99.9% paycuts to keep the company running, in this case...


When did they take those pay cuts? The cuts were only in effect until Dec. 31. Would the employee pay cuts only be in effect until Dec. 31? Only four executives under the CEO agreed to have their pay cut to $1. Others agreed to have their pay brought back to the level it was at before the raises. Permanent pay cuts for the workers and temporary cuts for the executives. Sounds fair to me.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/hostess.asp
http://radicalruss.com/hostess-ceo-greg ... f-company/


we've already decided that nothing the management does or did do or could do would be good enough....

Regardless, they took a lot of cuts. They took one for the team. Of course they are not going to make 1$ a year forever (think of all the tax revenue lost! :o ) And of course it's a short term plan. when the company is teetering on the brink of solvency, everything is short term. They didn't even make it to December 31st, so I don't see any point making a issue about "only taking the cuts till dec 31st" and I would put more stock into "now its the other sides turn to take one for the team" The workers did not, so they did not make it to dec 31st

Now none of them have jobs. Now there are no tax revenues being generated
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:30 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Evil Semp wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I might agree, but that doesn't mean that they are. The upper management took 99.9% paycuts to keep the company running, in this case...


When did they take those pay cuts? The cuts were only in effect until Dec. 31. Would the employee pay cuts only be in effect until Dec. 31? Only four executives under the CEO agreed to have their pay cut to $1. Others agreed to have their pay brought back to the level it was at before the raises. Permanent pay cuts for the workers and temporary cuts for the executives. Sounds fair to me.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/hostess.asp
http://radicalruss.com/hostess-ceo-greg ... f-company/


we've already decided that nothing the management does or did do or could do would be good enough....



Actually, it seems management decided on that, not anyone else.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:31 am

Phatscotty wrote:Now none of them have jobs. Now there are no tax revenues being generated


Again with your communist notions, pinkoscotty. :roll:
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:33 am

AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Now none of them have jobs. Now there are no tax revenues being generated


Again with your communist notions, pinkoscotty. :roll:


the comment is for the communist, not from one

hurry up and get over whatever bullshit you are on lately. You make lots of good posts and the kind you make lately distract from that
Last edited by Phatscotty on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:34 am

Phatscotty wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Now none of them have jobs. Now there are no tax revenues being generated


Again with your communist notions, pinkoscotty. :roll:


the comment is for the communist, not from one


Choose to believe what you want, but if you truly understood capitalism and communism, you'd understand your notion is communistic at its very core. Mind you, Im not even suggesting that you're wrong per-se, only that the entire idea reeks of communism.
Last edited by AAFitz on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:35 am

AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Now none of them have jobs. Now there are no tax revenues being generated


Again with your communist notions, pinkoscotty. :roll:


the comment is for the communist, not from one


Choose to believe what you want, but if you truly understood capitalism and communism, you'd understand your notion is communistic at its very core.


I would be interested to hear you speak on that in more detail
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:37 am

Phatscotty wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Now none of them have jobs. Now there are no tax revenues being generated


Again with your communist notions, pinkoscotty. :roll:


the comment is for the communist, not from one


Choose to believe what you want, but if you truly understood capitalism and communism, you'd understand your notion is communistic at its very core.


I would be interested to hear you speak on that in more detail


Simple. Capitalism is people working to make their situation better for themselves. Communism is everyone working to make the community better.

I could go on and explain in detail, but clearly you dont even understand capitalism on a basic level, so Ill start with the beginners course.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:40 am

AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Now none of them have jobs. Now there are no tax revenues being generated


Again with your communist notions, pinkoscotty. :roll:


the comment is for the communist, not from one


Choose to believe what you want, but if you truly understood capitalism and communism, you'd understand your notion is communistic at its very core.


I would be interested to hear you speak on that in more detail


Simple. Capitalism is people working to make their situation better for themselves. Communism is everyone working to make the community better.


How does that relate to this topic? or anything I have said?
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:45 am

Phatscotty wrote:How does that relate to this topic?


You just asked me to explain why your comments were communistic, and I did. You suggesting they should even consider taking one for the team, or lost tax revenue is communistic by its very nature, whereas as capitalists none of those concerns should matter in the decision making process, because capitalism is based on people doing whats best for them individually, which in turn makes everything better overall...

Its awesome that you don't even see it. It should have been obvious to anyone who pretends to be a capitalist and an American as often as you do. It's nice to see your real philosophies are different than your stated ones. Not that its surprising.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby chang50 on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:51 am

AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:How does that relate to this topic?


You just asked me to explain why your comments were communistic, and I did. You suggesting they should even consider taking one for the team, or lost tax revenue is communistic by its very nature, whereas as capitalists none of those concerns should matter in the decision making process, because capitalism is based on people doing whats best for them individually, which in turn makes everything better overall...

Its awesome that you don't even see it. It should have been obvious to anyone who pretends to be a capitalist and an American as often as you do. It's nice to see your real philosophies are different than your stated ones. Not that its surprising.


'Whoosh',that's the sound of your nuanced argument going right over the head of someone..
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:52 am

chang50 wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:How does that relate to this topic?


You just asked me to explain why your comments were communistic, and I did. You suggesting they should even consider taking one for the team, or lost tax revenue is communistic by its very nature, whereas as capitalists none of those concerns should matter in the decision making process, because capitalism is based on people doing whats best for them individually, which in turn makes everything better overall...

Its awesome that you don't even see it. It should have been obvious to anyone who pretends to be a capitalist and an American as often as you do. It's nice to see your real philosophies are different than your stated ones. Not that its surprising.


'Whoosh',that's the sound of your nuanced argument going right over the head of someone..


For my part, I tried to keep it simple at the 101 level.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:01 am

AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:How does that relate to this topic?


You just asked me to explain why your comments were communistic, and I did. You suggesting they should even consider taking one for the team, or lost tax revenue is communistic by its very nature, whereas as capitalists none of those concerns should matter in the decision making process, because capitalism is based on people doing whats best for them individually, which in turn makes everything better overall...

Its awesome that you don't even see it. It should have been obvious to anyone who pretends to be a capitalist and an American as often as you do. It's nice to see your real philosophies are different than your stated ones. Not that its surprising.


no, you defined what capitalism is, in a very narrow and self serving range, and then what Communism was. Then you continued to tell me directly why you weren't going to explain how it relates.

There is no i in team. If you want to do what's best for yourself, sometimes the team concept is best, and sometimes it's not. It's not an either or situation.

The comment you brought up, I already told you, were for the communists. It was meant to appeal to your concerns, not a statement that shows what I am the most concerned about, because it's not my main concern. tax revenue, obviously, is the concern of the left, if the drool drops and your own words mean anything...but don't let that stop you from ignoring the entire topic matter and the context while focusing entirely on one word I used in the last 5 pages...It looks like you are just cheaply declaring yourself the victor on a meaningless and ridiculous point (none of this is about capitalism vs communism, wtf) and now breaking your arm patting yourself on the back, and your gimp thinks it's awesome

chang50 wrote:
'Whoosh',that's the sound of your nuanced argument going right over the head of someone..


Indeed
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:26 am

Phatscotty wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:How does that relate to this topic?


You just asked me to explain why your comments were communistic, and I did. You suggesting they should even consider taking one for the team, or lost tax revenue is communistic by its very nature, whereas as capitalists none of those concerns should matter in the decision making process, because capitalism is based on people doing whats best for them individually, which in turn makes everything better overall...

Its awesome that you don't even see it. It should have been obvious to anyone who pretends to be a capitalist and an American as often as you do. It's nice to see your real philosophies are different than your stated ones. Not that its surprising.


no, you defined what capitalism is, in a very narrow and self serving range, and then what Communism was. Then you continued to tell me directly why you weren't going to explain how it relates.

There is no i in team. If you want to do what's best for yourself, sometimes the team concept is best, and sometimes it's not. It's not an either or situation.

The comment you brought up, I already told you, were for the communists. It was meant to appeal to your concerns, not a statement that shows what I am the most concerned about, because that wouldn't even make sense, since I have been arguing the opposite the entire time....but don't let that stop you from ignoring the entire topic matter and the context while focusing entirely on one word I used in the last 5 pages...It looks like you are just cheaply declaring yourself the victor on a meaningless and ridiculous point (none of this is about capitalism vs communism, wtf) and now breaking your arm patting yourself on the back, and your gimp thinks it's awesome

chang50 wrote:
'Whoosh',that's the sound of your nuanced argument going right over the head of someone..


Indeed


Double indeed. I hardly focused on one term you used, I instead focused on your entire point. It is complex, and there are indeed many factors, and my point is not only that most of your argument here is contradictory, hypocritical, but also, communistic. If you dont think the question of Unions and the demise of a business is worthy of discussions of economic theory, well, I apologize you can't appreciate the importance of them. And again, I only pointed out they were communistic. You are the one that asked me to explain.

As far as declaring myself a victor, I am not. I am just discouraged you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, the actual implications of it, and are so utterly hypocritical while doing so. But, I agree, pointing that out is no victory. You pretty much can take all the credit for that. :D
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby stahrgazer on Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:31 am

AAFitz wrote:You just asked me to explain why your comments were communistic, and I did. You suggesting they should even consider taking one for the team, or lost tax revenue is communistic by its very nature, whereas as capitalists none of those concerns should matter in the decision making process, because capitalism is based on people doing whats best for them individually, which in turn makes everything better overall...

Its awesome that you don't even see it. It should have been obvious to anyone who pretends to be a capitalist and an American as often as you do. It's nice to see your real philosophies are different than your stated ones. Not that its surprising.


Wow! Founding Fathers are turning over in their graves at the belief that they founded American on an, "One for one and f* them all" principle that is so wrong but also so popular to spout these days.

Also, doing something for oneself and only oneself does not make everything better overall.

America was supposed to be about, "United we stand," but this version of "capitalism, capitalism, and only capitalism" is more like the, "divided we fall," part of that saying.

Capitalism without a healthy dose of patriotism or other moral ethics leads to evil.

Having said that, I think the analysts who said the union reps who refused any of Hostess's offer, did it to try to keep wages high in other baking factories they represent, are probably accurate; and I think that the union reps did those they represented at Hostess, a disservice. On the flipside, Hostess management has offered absolutely zero new products to work on stabilizing their decreasing market share. While Twinkies are a nostalgic food, many folks will just as easily buy Little Debbie creme snack cakes - not twinkies, but twinkie-like - but LD doesn't rely just on those cakes, they have a lot of other offerings that people enjoy. So, Hostess management has done its employees a disservice for a while, too.

So, to say the Unions shut down Hostess is ignoring that Hostess management hasn't done very much to keep its brand up, either. BOTH have been wrong, with the employees caught in the middle.

And that's what happens when "capitalism and only capitalism" becomes each side's goal - those without much power get to foot the bill. And THAT is what is anti American, THAT is precisely what our founding fathers fought against.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Evil Semp on Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:09 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Evil Semp wrote:
%hatscotty wrote:I might agree, but that doesn't mean that they are. The upper management took 99.9% paycuts to keep the company running, in this case...


When did they take those pay cuts? The cuts were only in effect until Dec. 31. Would the employee pay cuts only be in effect until Dec. 31? Only four executives under the CEO agreed to have their pay cut to $1. Others agreed to have their pay brought back to the level it was at before the raises. Permanent pay cuts for the workers and temporary cuts for the executives. Sounds fair to me.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/hostess.asp
http://radicalruss.com/hostess-ceo-greg ... f-company/


we've already decided that nothing the management does or did do or could do would be good enough....

Regardless, they took a lot of cuts. They took one for the team. Of course they are not going to make 1$ a year forever (think of all the tax revenue lost! :o ) And of course it's a short term plan. when the company is teetering on the brink of solvency, everything is short term. They didn't even make it to December 31st, so I don't see any point making a issue about "only taking the cuts till dec 31st" and I would put more stock into "now its the other sides turn to take one for the team" The workers did not, so they did not make it to dec 31st

Now none of them have jobs. Now there are no tax revenues being generated


Then why did you make it a point that he took a 99.9% pay cut? I am saying the knight in shining armor isn't so shiny.

Didn't the workers take one for the team the last time the company was in trouble?
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:27 pm

because, he took one for the team. Sure, there is more to it, but mostly this is the topic because of the 5% cut the workers refused.

wanted to throw this commentary out there too

"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Iliad on Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:26 pm

Iliad wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Evil Semp wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Evil Semp wrote:Here is the article posted earlier about the pay increases for management. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/1 ... 47043.html


btw, this link has been "corrected" At first I was just going to point out that these management pay raises were "claims" from the union, but it doesn't matter anymore anyways...


Yes it does matter. It could explain part of the reason why the employees would accept the pay cuts.

Phatscotty wrote:
An earlier version of as well as an earlier headline of this post incorrectly stated that Greg Rayburn received a 300 percent raise as CEO of Hostess as the company approached bankruptcy. Rayburn wasn't CEO of Hostess until after the company filed for bankruptcy. The post also incorrectly stated that he was paid a salary of up to $2,550,000 per year. His salary when he joined the company was $100,000 per month, according to a company spokesman.


The name given was wrong but that doesn't change the fact about the pay increases or at least the attempt at the pay increases.

Hostess’ creditors accused the company in April of manipulating executive salaries with the aim of getting around bankruptcy compensation rules, the Wall Street Journal reported at the time. In response, Rayburn announced he would cut his pay and that of other executives to $1 until Dec. 31 or whenever Hostess came out of bankruptcy.


Phatscotty wrote:I bet this won't matter though. The incorrect information has been corrected, but the opinions of posters that have been strongly shaped based solely on the size of the pay raises and salaries for the CEO and management will probably stay the same...


Actually it does matter. It show me that he might have taken one for the team but we don't know about his whole pay and compensation package.

Here is an article explaining the CEO changes at Hostess. http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2012/03/09/h ... as-sought/


ty again for the link. I am eating them up like candy!

However, it does show he certainly did his part, basically taking a 99.9% pay cut on his standard salary. If that isn't good enough, then I'm not sure if anything would have been good enough. He not only took one for the team, he sacrificed so that there was still a "team" at all. He's probably pretty pissed now that after what he gave up to keep the company going and keep the workers working, and they just walked out on the company. I'm more pissed at the employees now too.

Let me read your link


Why are you pissed off at the employees? Why is this an emotional event at all?

Isn't this your fabled free market at work? A company can't operate unless it pays its employees below market rate wages.
Clearly it's inefficient relative to its competitors if it can't maintain a profit and pay its employees the market rate for their wages, so by going bankrupt it's opening up market space for its more efficient competitors. Its employees, as rational self-interested individuals, as all are in an economist framework, have no interest in sacrificing their own wages to perpetuate inefficiency. If a company can't pay its employees the average market rate wages and maintain a profit, then i don't see why it should be in business.

Why is it, when tax hikes are proposed, even by 1 or 2% the lovely business owners can threaten to flee and relocate and this is celebrated as the 'market' in action, but apparently employees are supposed to accept a 5% pay cut just after concessions two years ago. Like their jobs are some kind of gift bestowed on them and their rational self-interest is not at stake.

You make for a shitty economist if you can't even adhere to your own ideology and just blindly shit on the poorer side in an argument.

Still no-one even trying to refute this.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Evil Semp on Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:35 pm

Phatscotty wrote:because, he took one for the team. Sure, there is more to it, but mostly this is the topic because of the 5% cut the workers refused.

wanted to throw this commentary out there too


Yes there is more. How about the raise in health care and pension cuts. I don't see anything saying the CEO taking any of those cuts. Yeah he took a temporary cut in pay but was getting it back. I don't see where the employees cuts were temporary. Yeah he took one for the team, he should he is the leader of the team.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:20 pm

Evil Semp wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:because, he took one for the team. Sure, there is more to it, but mostly this is the topic because of the 5% cut the workers refused.

wanted to throw this commentary out there too


Yes there is more. How about the raise in health care and pension cuts. I don't see anything saying the CEO taking any of those cuts. Yeah he took a temporary cut in pay but was getting it back. I don't see where the employees cuts were temporary. Yeah he took one for the team, he should he is the leader of the team.


whatever people say, I'm confident your attitude pin-points the attitudes of the unions workers, and you speak for them well
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Evil Semp on Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:38 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Evil Semp wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:because, he took one for the team. Sure, there is more to it, but mostly this is the topic because of the 5% cut the workers refused.

wanted to throw this commentary out there too


Yes there is more. How about the raise in health care and pension cuts. I don't see anything saying the CEO taking any of those cuts. Yeah he took a temporary cut in pay but was getting it back. I don't see where the employees cuts were temporary. Yeah he took one for the team, he should he is the leader of the team.


whatever people say, I'm confident your attitude pin-points the attitudes of the unions workers, and you speak for them well


I take that as a compliment scotty. Why don't you address any of my comments. You seem to side step comments made by others.

Would Rayburn have taken the pay cut if he didn't have other income? I doubt it. He took the pay cut as a PR stunt.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:40 pm

Evil Semp wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Evil Semp wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:because, he took one for the team. Sure, there is more to it, but mostly this is the topic because of the 5% cut the workers refused.

wanted to throw this commentary out there too


Yes there is more. How about the raise in health care and pension cuts. I don't see anything saying the CEO taking any of those cuts. Yeah he took a temporary cut in pay but was getting it back. I don't see where the employees cuts were temporary. Yeah he took one for the team, he should he is the leader of the team.


whatever people say, I'm confident your attitude pin-points the attitudes of the unions workers, and you speak for them well


I take that as a compliment scotty. Why don't you address any of my comments. You seem to side step comments made by others.

Would Rayburn have taken the pay cut if he didn't have other income? I doubt it. He took the pay cut as a PR stunt.


we aren't getting anywhere. I feel like you keep moving the goal post. You asked "when" were the raises, I adressed it. Then you jumped to something else to do with the raises, I addressed it. Now we are into the benefits and health care program...

I mentioned from the start that nothing would be good enough, we don't have to refigure that out one piece at a time
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Evil Semp on Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:52 pm

Phatscotty wrote:I mentioned from the start that nothing would be good enough, we don't have to refigure that out one piece at a time


If my boss said he would take a pay cut until the end of the year and I would have to take a pay cut with no time line on getting back to that pay level but I would also have to take cuts in benefits I would say no also.

Your are right about one thing. Nothing would be good enough for you if the employees didn't accept managements proposals.

Humor me scotty. Lets have a negotiation. You are management and I am the union. Convince me that management would take the same hit for the company that the employees were being asked to take. Remember some management had their raises taken away but they didn't take a pay cut from their previous pay level.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:58 pm

Evil Semp wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I mentioned from the start that nothing would be good enough, we don't have to refigure that out one piece at a time


If my boss said he would take a pay cut until the end of the year and I would have to take a pay cut with no time line on getting back to that pay level but I would also have to take cuts in benefits I would say no also.


and you are prepared to take a 100% cut to back that up?

Evil Semp wrote:Your are right about one thing. Nothing would be good enough for you if the employees didn't accept managements proposals.

Humor me scotty. Lets have a negotiation. You are management and I am the union. Convince me that management would take the same hit for the company that the employees were being asked to take. Remember some management had their raises taken away but they didn't take a pay cut from their previous pay level.


I can't figure out how you aren't asking me to start all over from the beginning, because all I want to say to that is "management is prepared to take a 99.9% paycut, and work for a 1$/year"
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Evil Semp on Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:11 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Evil Semp wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I mentioned from the start that nothing would be good enough, we don't have to refigure that out one piece at a time


If my boss said he would take a pay cut until the end of the year and I would have to take a pay cut with no time line on getting back to that pay level but I would also have to take cuts in benefits I would say no also.


and you are prepared to take a 100% cut to back that up? [\quote]

Yes I am.

Phatscotty wrote:
Evil Semp wrote:Your are right about one thing. Nothing would be good enough for you if the employees didn't accept managements proposals.

Humor me scotty. Lets have a negotiation. You are management and I am the union. Convince me that management would take the same hit for the company that the employees were being asked to take. Remember some management had their raises taken away but they didn't take a pay cut from their previous pay level.


I can't figure out how you aren't asking me to start all over from the beginning, because all I want to say to that is "management is prepared to take a 99.9% paycut, and work for a 1$/year"


I am not asking you to start over. I am asking how a few members of management taking a pay cut for a predetermined amount of time is fair.
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