Unions Shut Down Hostess

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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:18 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Excuse me, but I was under the impression there was a vote held by union members. What was that result?

Your point?


What was the result of the union employee vote?

They turned down the management offer, of course. But why do you consider that significant?
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:35 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Excuse me, but I was under the impression there was a vote held by union members. What was that result?

Your point?


What was the result of the union employee vote?

They turned down the offer


so who's choice was it to shut the company down?
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Nola_Lifer on Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:02 pm

I don't see how you can blame the workers for the shut down. Hostess filed Chapter 11 twice and lets say workers did take the pay cut, how would it be before management ask them to take another pay cut? 1 or 2 years? It was a failing company due to increase in price of materials and the fact that their products have no nutritional value.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Timminz on Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:40 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Timminz wrote:Point of order: shareholders are actually quite low on the list of those who will get anything back from a liquidated company. They are entitled to any residual equity after debts and other contractual obligations have been settled.

Once a company goes bankrupt, yes. However, they get "theirs" in the company operation overall. Also, if a company is disbanded quickly and while still productive, then there should be enough left over after paying employees and other debtees for shareholders to gain something.

Further, in my point.. it is like saying that the middle manager won't get an income after he/she is fired or quits. Some managers do their best to follow upper management dictates. Others take what they can for themselves... and run. Not necessarily talking embezzling here, but more just getting what they can, not worrying about any problems they leave, and quickly and secretly getting another job, leaving problems for the successor to fix.


I wasn't responding to anything you wrote. I was correcting a point patches made about shareholders getting paid before creditors.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Lootifer on Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:53 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Excuse me, but I was under the impression there was a vote held by union members. What was that result?

Your point?


What was the result of the union employee vote?

They turned down the offer


so who's choice was it to shut the company down?

Im not really a union kind of guy, theyre a pretty outdated concept now that we have many other, more appropriate, forms of employee protection. However the union turning down managements' offer is hardly equatable with them being the catalyst for the hostess failure.

You can just as easily say that managements low ball offer was what broke the company (however this is utter BS too).

What fucked hostess was good old fashioned shithouse management; sure the union didnt help, but no amount of employees sucking it up were likely to get them out of the hole they were in.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:23 am

Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Excuse me, but I was under the impression there was a vote held by union members. What was that result?

Your point?


What was the result of the union employee vote?

They turned down the offer


so who's choice was it to shut the company down?

Im not really a union kind of guy, theyre a pretty outdated concept now that we have many other, more appropriate, forms of employee protection. However the union turning down managements' offer is hardly equatable with them being the catalyst for the hostess failure.

You can just as easily say that managements low ball offer was what broke the company (however this is utter BS too).

What fucked hostess was good old fashioned shithouse management; sure the union didnt help, but no amount of employees sucking it up were likely to get them out of the hole they were in.


So if the company was struggling due to decrease in demand combined with increase in costs(generally accepted explanation), why would this be the fault of management? If there is less profits to go around, everyone has to take a pay cut. The union employees went on strike as though they were somehow detached from the company as a whole so I would say that they are to blame for not being "team players".
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:53 am

A local Philadelphia bakery (in the vein of Hostess - Tastycake) was having similar problems a couple of years ago. I wonder if they are related.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby crispybits on Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:43 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:So if the company was struggling due to decrease in demand combined with increase in costs(generally accepted explanation), why would this be the fault of management? If there is less profits to go around, everyone has to take a pay cut. The union employees went on strike as though they were somehow detached from the company as a whole so I would say that they are to blame for not being "team players".


You're right there, and perhaps the union employees were viewing the pay rises the management were giving themselves and wondering where their pay rises were seeing as they were all part of the same team?

The "team player" argument is pure BS in this case beause it was management who were happy to award themselves rises and expected the workers to reduce their pay at the same time.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:40 pm

Nola_Lifer wrote:I don't see how you can blame the workers for the shut down. Hostess filed Chapter 11 twice and lets say workers did take the pay cut, how would it be before management ask them to take another pay cut? 1 or 2 years? It was a failing company due to increase in price of materials and the fact that their products have no nutritional value.


the workers gave up
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:41 pm

Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Excuse me, but I was under the impression there was a vote held by union members. What was that result?

Your point?


What was the result of the union employee vote?

They turned down the offer


so who's choice was it to shut the company down?

Im not really a union kind of guy, theyre a pretty outdated concept now that we have many other, more appropriate, forms of employee protection. However the union turning down managements' offer is hardly equatable with them being the catalyst for the hostess failure.


Was there a different result from the union members turning down the offer that we are not aware of?
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Lootifer on Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:03 pm

Funky wrote:So if the company was struggling due to decrease in demand combined with increase in costs(generally accepted explanation), why would this be the fault of management? If there is less profits to go around, everyone has to take a pay cut. The union employees went on strike as though they were somehow detached from the company as a whole so I would say that they are to blame for not being "team players".

You know what management do right? Its not simply telling people when to turn up and go home, and whipping them when they do bad. Strategic decisions are high level managements most important responsibility. It would appear that Hostess is failing because they did not evolve with the market; as you say, demand is dropping and costs are rising. In a very evolved market such as foodstuffs there is no excuse for losing demand to substitutes other than weak management. Look at the fast food chains for example; they quickly adjusted their menus in light of people - at least on the surface - becoming more health conscious.

Phatscotty wrote:Was there a different result from the union members turning down the offer that we are not aware of?

You seem to be mistaking the effect (pay cuts - which were refused) for the cause (drop in demand, debt loading, and rise in costs) in this case.

@Both of you:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/ ... ad-to-die/
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:25 pm

Lootifer wrote:
Funky wrote:So if the company was struggling due to decrease in demand combined with increase in costs(generally accepted explanation), why would this be the fault of management? If there is less profits to go around, everyone has to take a pay cut. The union employees went on strike as though they were somehow detached from the company as a whole so I would say that they are to blame for not being "team players".

You know what management do right? Its not simply telling people when to turn up and go home, and whipping them when they do bad. Strategic decisions are high level managements most important responsibility. It would appear that Hostess is failing because they did not evolve with the market; as you say, demand is dropping and costs are rising. In a very evolved market such as foodstuffs there is no excuse for losing demand to substitutes other than weak management. Look at the fast food chains for example; they quickly adjusted their menus in light of people - at least on the surface - becoming more health conscious.

Phatscotty wrote:Was there a different result from the union members turning down the offer that we are not aware of?

You seem to be mistaking the effect (pay cuts - which were refused) for the cause (drop in demand, debt loading, and rise in costs) in this case.

@Both of you:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/ ... ad-to-die/


The article you posted also refers to rising labor costs as one of the problems.

I thought I said this earlier in the thread (apparently not), but, as most things, it was a combination of factors. I blame two things: rising costs (including labor) and poor management. I don't blame overloading debt; these guys can go get more loans if they want to; but they didn't want to because the ship was sinking.

Ironically, one union did not concede on various items because the money would just go to a different union. Free market union competition!
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:57 pm

I understand the drop in demand, debt loading, and rise in costs. The response is to make cuts where you can, even in wages.

I'm really not trying to take the side of the management, I'm trying to take the side of the JOBS.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Lootifer on Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:47 pm

Phatscotty wrote:I understand the drop in demand, debt loading, and rise in costs. The response is to make cuts where you can, even in wages.

I'm really not trying to take the side of the management, I'm trying to take the side of the JOBS.

Fair enough; I would say though, a good portion of those jobs, from an economic/financial pov, needed to go even if Hostess were to survive. Just a sad consequence of a big business struggling.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:56 pm

Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I understand the drop in demand, debt loading, and rise in costs. The response is to make cuts where you can, even in wages.

I'm really not trying to take the side of the management, I'm trying to take the side of the JOBS.

Fair enough; I would say though, a good portion of those jobs, from an economic/financial pov, needed to go even if Hostess were to survive. Just a sad consequence of a big business struggling.


Whatever it takes to keep them here, for however as long as possible.

Either we want a better economy with more workers and taxpayers and wealth creation, or we don't.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Iliad on Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:59 am

Iliad wrote:
Iliad wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Evil Semp wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:btw, this link has been "corrected" At first I was just going to point out that these management pay raises were "claims" from the union, but it doesn't matter anymore anyways...


Yes it does matter. It could explain part of the reason why the employees would accept the pay cuts.

Phatscotty wrote:
An earlier version of as well as an earlier headline of this post incorrectly stated that Greg Rayburn received a 300 percent raise as CEO of Hostess as the company approached bankruptcy. Rayburn wasn't CEO of Hostess until after the company filed for bankruptcy. The post also incorrectly stated that he was paid a salary of up to $2,550,000 per year. His salary when he joined the company was $100,000 per month, according to a company spokesman.


The name given was wrong but that doesn't change the fact about the pay increases or at least the attempt at the pay increases.

Hostess’ creditors accused the company in April of manipulating executive salaries with the aim of getting around bankruptcy compensation rules, the Wall Street Journal reported at the time. In response, Rayburn announced he would cut his pay and that of other executives to $1 until Dec. 31 or whenever Hostess came out of bankruptcy.


Phatscotty wrote:I bet this won't matter though. The incorrect information has been corrected, but the opinions of posters that have been strongly shaped based solely on the size of the pay raises and salaries for the CEO and management will probably stay the same...


Actually it does matter. It show me that he might have taken one for the team but we don't know about his whole pay and compensation package.

Here is an article explaining the CEO changes at Hostess. http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2012/03/09/h ... as-sought/


ty again for the link. I am eating them up like candy!

However, it does show he certainly did his part, basically taking a 99.9% pay cut on his standard salary. If that isn't good enough, then I'm not sure if anything would have been good enough. He not only took one for the team, he sacrificed so that there was still a "team" at all. He's probably pretty pissed now that after what he gave up to keep the company going and keep the workers working, and they just walked out on the company. I'm more pissed at the employees now too.

Let me read your link


Why are you pissed off at the employees? Why is this an emotional event at all?

Isn't this your fabled free market at work? A company can't operate unless it pays its employees below market rate wages.
Clearly it's inefficient relative to its competitors if it can't maintain a profit and pay its employees the market rate for their wages, so by going bankrupt it's opening up market space for its more efficient competitors. Its employees, as rational self-interested individuals, as all are in an economist framework, have no interest in sacrificing their own wages to perpetuate inefficiency. If a company can't pay its employees the average market rate wages and maintain a profit, then i don't see why it should be in business.

Why is it, when tax hikes are proposed, even by 1 or 2% the lovely business owners can threaten to flee and relocate and this is celebrated as the 'market' in action, but apparently employees are supposed to accept a 5% pay cut just after concessions two years ago. Like their jobs are some kind of gift bestowed on them and their rational self-interest is not at stake.

You make for a shitty economist if you can't even adhere to your own ideology and just blindly shit on the poorer side in an argument.

Still no-one even trying to refute this.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:05 am

pff. #1, you think this is a free market? That is so friggin laughable, I don't blame anyone for not touching it!

This (Hostess) it what it looks like when the free market has been suffocated.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Iliad on Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:28 am

Phatscotty wrote:pff. #1, you think this is a free market? That is so friggin laughable, I don't blame anyone for not touching it!

This (Hostess) it what it looks like when the free market has been suffocated.

Expecting basic knowledge of economics from you was a bit much I see. Carry on.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Lootifer on Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:15 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I understand the drop in demand, debt loading, and rise in costs. The response is to make cuts where you can, even in wages.

I'm really not trying to take the side of the management, I'm trying to take the side of the JOBS.

Fair enough; I would say though, a good portion of those jobs, from an economic/financial pov, needed to go even if Hostess were to survive. Just a sad consequence of a big business struggling.


Whatever it takes to keep them here, for however as long as possible.

Either we want a better economy with more workers and taxpayers and wealth creation, or we don't.

Yes but Hostess could have failed because the free market pushed them out, that means the market is signalling those workers would be better off doing something other than working for Hostess.

You could now think of it as a great opportunity for a other foodstuff or similar start ups or established businesses to move into places where the hostess previously were and get a nice big pool of labour to choose from.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:20 pm

Phatscotty wrote:This (Hostess) it what it looks like when the free market has been suffocated.


Pfft, Listen, I don't claim to know how suffocation works, but something seems off here.


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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:22 pm

Phatscotty wrote:pff. #1, you think this is a free market? That is so friggin laughable, I don't blame anyone for not touching it!

This (Hostess) it what it looks like when the free market has been suffocated.


What are you even talking about? There was no government intervention here at all that I could see. What am I missing?

Now, if Hostess got a bailout... then we'd have something to discuss.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Neoteny on Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:47 pm

Twinkies would have been saved by cap and trade.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:03 pm

Iliad wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:pff. #1, you think this is a free market? That is so friggin laughable, I don't blame anyone for not touching it!

This (Hostess) it what it looks like when the free market has been suffocated.

Expecting basic knowledge of economics from you was a bit much I see. Carry on.


what a pointless post....
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:03 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:pff. #1, you think this is a free market? That is so friggin laughable, I don't blame anyone for not touching it!

This (Hostess) it what it looks like when the free market has been suffocated.


What are you even talking about? There was no government intervention here at all that I could see. What am I missing?

Now, if Hostess got a bailout... then we'd have something to discuss.


The market place in America is definitely not a free market or barely free market friendly, and highly over-regulated by both the government, and the union, in this case.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:21 am

Phatscotty wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:pff. #1, you think this is a free market? That is so friggin laughable, I don't blame anyone for not touching it!

This (Hostess) it what it looks like when the free market has been suffocated.


What are you even talking about? There was no government intervention here at all that I could see. What am I missing?

Now, if Hostess got a bailout... then we'd have something to discuss.


The market place in America is definitely not a free market or barely free market friendly, and highly over-regulated by both the government, and the union, in this case.


Wait, what? The union is highly over-regulating the marketplace? Explain how that works.

I agree that the economy of the United States it not a free market, obviously. However, in this instance, with Hostess, I'm looking for where the over-regulation occurred that caused the company to go bankrupt. It seems that this is EXACTLY how the free market should work.

And again, we can see the difference between Phatscotty the supposed free market guy and Phatscotty the mainstream Republican, big business guy.
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