Unions Shut Down Hostess

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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:53 pm

notyou2 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
notyou2 wrote:Not sure how you see this as a major blow to the economy? Unless a great deal of the product they made was shipped outside of the US.


Um.....the US economy lost 10's of thousands of jobs, IE 10's of thousands of taxpayers.

It's self evident, unless you can show how this is good or neutral for the US economy? I'm betting you won't, probably just call me some names...


If the food that replaces Hostess on the shelf is from the US, there isn't necessarily a loss of jobs, perhaps a shift of jobs from one US place to another, but not necessarily a loss. I hope the junk food void is filled by crap made in Canada and the jobs go here.


So you make a point to comment about how little impact this will have on the US economy, but then in the next post you comment about the hopefully positive impact to Canada's economy?

That makes you a hypocrite. You can't get a positive effect from something you just argued does not have a negative effect.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:54 pm

notyou2 wrote:
I hope the junk food void is filled by crap made in Canada and the jobs go here.


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Postby 2dimes on Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:58 pm

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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:59 pm

I guess we're comparing apples to oranges. Life in the U.S. is a lot cheaper. Here in Canada, 28K wouldn't support a family, even in a very cheap neighbourhood. 16K is barely enough for a single person. But since it was just a hypothetical figure, I suppose it doesn't matter.

Phatscotty wrote:Also, i know people who make it a point to make less than 16k a year and goes on cruises, has a twice a week casino addiction, a flat screen in every room, and when she buys her kids a game for PS3, she gets 2 copies of the same game, so they don't have to share. So that's 16k..... you are way off about 28k barely covering the cost of living.

Luckily that is not the point here


The basic point is: whether you're working for pennies or for billions, whether you're a tomato picker in Chile or a transnational banker, every deal has a walk-away point. You can't just keep saying "something is better than nothing" and accepting whatever crap the other side is dishing out. That approach will just get you suckered every time. There is a point, no matter what the job or what the commodity you're dealing over, that you have to say "it's not worth my time" and go look for something better.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:59 pm

Phatscotty wrote:You can't get a positive effect from something you just argued does not have a negative effect.


Economics is not a zero sum game.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby notyou2 on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:00 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
notyou2 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
notyou2 wrote:Not sure how you see this as a major blow to the economy? Unless a great deal of the product they made was shipped outside of the US.


Um.....the US economy lost 10's of thousands of jobs, IE 10's of thousands of taxpayers.

It's self evident, unless you can show how this is good or neutral for the US economy? I'm betting you won't, probably just call me some names...


If the food that replaces Hostess on the shelf is from the US, there isn't necessarily a loss of jobs, perhaps a shift of jobs from one US place to another, but not necessarily a loss. I hope the junk food void is filled by crap made in Canada and the jobs go here.


So you make a point to comment about how little impact this will have on the US economy, but then in the next post you comment about the hopefully positive impact to Canada's economy?

That makes you a hypocrite. You can't get a positive effect from something you just argued does not have a negative effect.


I was joking about the jobs to Canada part. Someone else will buy the factories and produce the same thing but non-union.

The part about the food I was serious. The jobs aren't necessarily gone. You're just making a thread to whine about how your country is going to hell in a handbasket thanks to Obama.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby tj755 on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:02 pm

Good. Shut down all the places that process fake food crap. Maybe then Americans would not be so fat!
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:03 pm

Dukasaur wrote:I guess we're comparing apples to oranges. Life in the U.S. is a lot cheaper. Here in Canada, 28K wouldn't support a family, even in a very cheap neighbourhood. 16K is barely enough for a single person. But since it was just a hypothetical figure, I suppose it doesn't matter.

Phatscotty wrote:Also, i know people who make it a point to make less than 16k a year and goes on cruises, has a twice a week casino addiction, a flat screen in every room, and when she buys her kids a game for PS3, she gets 2 copies of the same game, so they don't have to share. So that's 16k..... you are way off about 28k barely covering the cost of living.

Luckily that is not the point here


The basic point is: whether you're working for pennies or for billions, whether you're a tomato picker in Chile or a transnational banker, every deal has a walk-away point. You can't just keep saying "something is better than nothing" and accepting whatever crap the other side is dishing out. That approach will just get you suckered every time. There is a point, no matter what the job or what the commodity you're dealing over, that you have to say "it's not worth my time" and go look for something better.


Why not? You think it's more likely these people who walked off the job are going to find another job that pays more, or less?

I am very surprised by your attitudes on this one. "meh, they're just jobs...."

I have been giving up my annual cost of living increases just to hold on to my health insurance since 2003.....
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:14 pm

In all seriousness I'm not downplaying the loss of jobs. I just think that hanging onto an inefficient industry is bad for everyone in the long run.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:15 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:I guess we're comparing apples to oranges. Life in the U.S. is a lot cheaper. Here in Canada, 28K wouldn't support a family, even in a very cheap neighbourhood. 16K is barely enough for a single person. But since it was just a hypothetical figure, I suppose it doesn't matter.

Phatscotty wrote:Also, i know people who make it a point to make less than 16k a year and goes on cruises, has a twice a week casino addiction, a flat screen in every room, and when she buys her kids a game for PS3, she gets 2 copies of the same game, so they don't have to share. So that's 16k..... you are way off about 28k barely covering the cost of living.

Luckily that is not the point here


The basic point is: whether you're working for pennies or for billions, whether you're a tomato picker in Chile or a transnational banker, every deal has a walk-away point. You can't just keep saying "something is better than nothing" and accepting whatever crap the other side is dishing out. That approach will just get you suckered every time. There is a point, no matter what the job or what the commodity you're dealing over, that you have to say "it's not worth my time" and go look for something better.


Why not? You think it's more likely these people who walked off the job are going to find another job that pays more, or less?

I am very surprised by your attitudes on this one. "meh, they're just jobs...."

I have been giving up my annual cost of living increases just to hold on to my health insurance since 2003.....

And I'm surprised that, considering you keep hinting you're a commodities broker or something like that, that you don't immediately grasp the point that every deal has a walk-away point.

Your time is a value. Giving it away too cheaply is giving away your life. What will it avail someone if they bust their ass for 40 years in a dead-end job, and then wake up one day, old and tired and arthritic, and realize they don't own a pot to piss in or, more relevantly, an RSP?

Do I know whether these people will get better jobs? No. I'm guessing some will and some won't. Very clearly most of them, from their own viewpoint which is closer to the scene than yours or mine, have decided they're better off not investing any more time in this company. I suspect some of them are married women, and after consulting with their husbands, they've decided their lifestyle will be better served by staying home and playing housewife. I suspect others will try going to school for a while and shooting for a real career instead of a line job. And yeah, for quite a few of them, it may have been the wrong choice, but it's their choice to make.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:16 pm

tj755 wrote:Good. Shut down all the places that process fake food crap. Maybe then Americans would not be so fat!


We are phat because we have mastered food production and distribution, and produce more than we need.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people think that is a bad thing. Unless I shrug it off as "they just hate America, and attack without thought like barbarians"

Our abundance of food and choices about what we eat are good things, you just need to let people be accountable for their own actions and let them sleep in the beds they make for themselves.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:20 pm

Phatscotty wrote:For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people think that is a bad thing. Unless I shrug it off as "they just hate America, and attack without thought like barbarians"

Our food situation is a good thing


Go outside of America and you'll see that there are 1.3 billion people living on the equivalent of less than $1.25 per day, and nearly one billion people living in hunger. America could basically unilaterally end the world's food shortage if it desired to.

Our food situation is barbaric.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:22 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
tj755 wrote:Good. Shut down all the places that process fake food crap. Maybe then Americans would not be so fat!


We are phat because we have mastered food production and distribution, and produce more than we need.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people think that is a bad thing. Unless I shrug it off as "they just hate America, and attack without thought like barbarians"

Our abundance of food and choices about what we eat are good things, you just need to let people be accountable for their own actions and let them sleep in the beds they make for themselves.


This is a good point. Obesity can unfortunately be a side effect of prosperity.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby MegaProphet on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:24 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
tj755 wrote:Good. Shut down all the places that process fake food crap. Maybe then Americans would not be so fat!


We are phat because we have mastered food production and distribution, and produce more than we need.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people think that is a bad thing. Unless I shrug it off as "they just hate America, and attack without thought like barbarians"

Our abundance of food and choices about what we eat are good things, you just need to let people be accountable for their own actions and let them sleep in the beds they make for themselves.

It's only really a bad thing because it leads to an increased chance of heart disease
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:25 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people think that is a bad thing. Unless I shrug it off as "they just hate America, and attack without thought like barbarians"

Our food situation is a good thing


Go outside of America and you'll see that there are 1.3 billion people living on the equivalent of less than $1.25 per day, and nearly one billion people living in hunger. America could basically unilaterally end the world's food shortage if it desired to.

Our food situation is barbaric.


$1.25 a day can buy a ton of food in many of those countries, so your guilt trip is misleading.

But let's go down your path. How would that work? You think it would be a good idea to feed the world, but is it actually possible? without breaking the very market that provided the surplus in the first place?
Last edited by Phatscotty on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:27 pm

MegaProphet wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
tj755 wrote:Good. Shut down all the places that process fake food crap. Maybe then Americans would not be so fat!


We are phat because we have mastered food production and distribution, and produce more than we need.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people think that is a bad thing. Unless I shrug it off as "they just hate America, and attack without thought like barbarians"

Our abundance of food and choices about what we eat are good things, you just need to let people be accountable for their own actions and let them sleep in the beds they make for themselves.

It's only really a bad thing because it leads to an increased chance of heart disease


I don't get what you mean. Of course heart disease as a bad thing, but are you really suggesting we close down all production of foods that you don't think are healthy, or can cause heart disease? Who decides what is healthy and what isn't?

Is that really how things should work in a free country?
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:28 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people think that is a bad thing. Unless I shrug it off as "they just hate America, and attack without thought like barbarians"

Our food situation is a good thing


Go outside of America and you'll see that there are 1.3 billion people living on the equivalent of less than $1.25 per day, and nearly one billion people living in hunger. America could basically unilaterally end the world's food shortage if it desired to.

Our food situation is barbaric.

That's not a fair accusation. The world's poor aren't starving because the Americans stole their food; the world's poor are starving because their own leaders stole their food. Almost every country on earth has a food surplus now. Virtually all hunger is created by the nabobs in power, the Parasites in Parliament, the Warlords on their Gilded Humvees, the putrescent corrupt armies of bureaucrats, the corrupt judges and thieving cops, the rent-seekers of every level, choose to extort the wealth of the countryside and concentrate its fruits in their own palaces.

You want to know the cure for hunger? It's called the guillotine.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby MegaProphet on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:34 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
MegaProphet wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
tj755 wrote:Good. Shut down all the places that process fake food crap. Maybe then Americans would not be so fat!


We are phat because we have mastered food production and distribution, and produce more than we need.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people think that is a bad thing. Unless I shrug it off as "they just hate America, and attack without thought like barbarians"

Our abundance of food and choices about what we eat are good things, you just need to let people be accountable for their own actions and let them sleep in the beds they make for themselves.

It's only really a bad thing because it leads to an increased chance of heart disease


I don't get what you mean. Of course heart disease as a bad thing, but are you really suggesting we close down all production of foods that you don't think are healthy, or can cause heart disease? Who decides what is healthy and what isn't?

Is that really how things should work in a free country?

No, that's just the negative that comes with obesity. I agree that our abundance of choice is a good thing, but it can come with consequences. However, that doesn't mean it should be policed
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:36 pm

MegaProphet wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
MegaProphet wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
tj755 wrote:Good. Shut down all the places that process fake food crap. Maybe then Americans would not be so fat!


We are phat because we have mastered food production and distribution, and produce more than we need.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people think that is a bad thing. Unless I shrug it off as "they just hate America, and attack without thought like barbarians"

Our abundance of food and choices about what we eat are good things, you just need to let people be accountable for their own actions and let them sleep in the beds they make for themselves.

It's only really a bad thing because it leads to an increased chance of heart disease


I don't get what you mean. Of course heart disease as a bad thing, but are you really suggesting we close down all production of foods that you don't think are healthy, or can cause heart disease? Who decides what is healthy and what isn't?

Is that really how things should work in a free country?

No, that's just the negative that comes with obesity. I agree that our abundance of choice is a good thing, but it can come with consequences. However, that doesn't mean it should be policed


okay, just saying, eating too much is the opposite of eating too little IE starvation
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:37 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
$1.25 a day can buy a ton of food in many of those countries, so your guilt trip is misleading.


It is not misleading. The World Bank's poverty estimate (what my claim is based on) specifically takes account of purchasing power; that is, 1.3 billion people quite literally do subsist on less than what $1.25 purchases in the United States. Most people would spend more than that on a bottle of water at a convenience store without batting an eye.

But let's go down your path. How would that work? You think it would be a good idea to feed the world, but is it actually possible? without breaking the very market that provided the surplus in the first place?


Yes, it is possible through one of two routes. One is by personal donation. For example, if the top 10% of America donated a modest amount of their income to international aid efforts, America could singlehandledly be responsible for achieving the UN's Millennium Development Goals, which basically aim to eradicate poverty and hunger on the global scale. I'll spare you the details unless you're interested, but it could be done with a progressive scale starting at 5% of income for those earning more than $100,000 per year. The rest of America would not even have to donate, although they could (and should).

Another is by switching to vegetarian diets on the large scale. Annually, the world feeds hundreds of billions of tons of grain to feed animals that we later eat. But the process is incredibly inefficient. For cows, for example, we get fewer than a 10% return in food compared to what we put in (in terms of pounds of food produced). If most of the developed world stopped eating meat, there would be enough food left over to end world hunger. I'm not exaggerating.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:47 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
$1.25 a day can buy a ton of food in many of those countries, so your guilt trip is misleading.


It is not misleading. The World Bank's poverty estimate (what my claim is based on) specifically takes account of purchasing power; that is, 1.3 billion people quite literally do subsist on less than what $1.25 purchases in the United States. Most people would spend more than that on a bottle of water at a convenience store without batting an eye.

But let's go down your path. How would that work? You think it would be a good idea to feed the world, but is it actually possible? without breaking the very market that provided the surplus in the first place?


Yes, it is possible through one of two routes. One is by personal donation. For example, if the top 10% of America donated a modest amount of their income to international aid efforts, America could singlehandledly be responsible for achieving the UN's Millennium Development Goals, which basically aim to eradicate poverty and hunger on the global scale. I'll spare you the details unless you're interested, but it could be done with a progressive scale starting at 5% of income for those earning more than $100,000 per year. The rest of America would not even have to donate, although they could (and should).

Another is by switching to vegetarian diets on the large scale. Annually, the world feeds hundreds of billions of tons of grain to feed animals that we later eat. But the process is incredibly inefficient. For cows, for example, we get fewer than a 10% return in food compared to what we put in (in terms of pounds of food produced). If most of the developed world stopped eating meat, there would be enough food left over to end world hunger. I'm not exaggerating.


America is already #1 in food donation. Most of it goes to feed Americans

Why is the answer with you Progressives always "take xyz away"?

also, just wondering how that fits in with how I assume your position is on world population. I would guess that you think there are too many people on the planet, especially under the lens of someone who believes in global warming. You do understand that if hunger in the world were eradicated, the population would explode and possibly become an even bigger problem, since the number of mouths to feed would at some point eclipse the levels currently produced. Any thoughts on these " :twisted: consequences :P "?
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:47 pm

Dukasaur wrote:That's not a fair accusation. The world's poor aren't starving because the Americans stole their food


Not technically accurate. Climate change is increasingly responsible for food shortages in many of the world's poor nations, and the USA is a major contributor to this climate change.

the world's poor are starving because their own leaders stole their food. Almost every country on earth has a food surplus now.


If you feel morally justified because "only" 20% of countries do not face food shortages, that doesn't change the raw number of people that are persistently hungry, which as I said right now numbers around one billion.

Virtually all hunger is created by the nabobs in power, the Parasites in Parliament, the Warlords on their Gilded Humvees, the putrescent corrupt armies of bureaucrats, the corrupt judges and thieving cops, the rent-seekers of every level, choose to extort the wealth of the countryside and concentrate its fruits in their own palaces.

You want to know the cure for hunger? It's called the guillotine.


Since going in and toppling every dictator in every poor nation is not likely to happen anytime soon, let's find more practical solutions.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Maugena on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:51 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:There's a premium endcap display next to the register right now at every 7-11 for Hostess. I'm sure Li'l Debbie would love to get her whore hands on that endcap.



Don't you EVER talk about her that way. I've got half a mind to pimp slap you across this thread.

I'm sure that the hostess workers cracked all kinds of sexist jokes about Debbie in the breakroom at the hostess plant but who's laughing now?
Tbh, I think it's even somewhat comical that the hostess workers went on strike in the first place. Did they think that their job of producing rot-gut pastries was that important? They'll loaf for a while until their unemployment runs out and then come crawling on their hands and knees to to Little Debbie's doorstep. Ginger-SNAP.

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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Evil Semp on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:54 pm

Phatscotty wrote:I have been giving up my annual cost of living increases just to hold on to my health insurance since 2003.....


Didn't you just change jobs in the past couple of years? I thought you moved to accept another job.

One reason these employees don't want to give up what the company is asking for. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/1 ... 47043.html

Hostess could have ensured the Twinkie's survival simply by paying the executives less, one of the unions organizing company workers alleges.

Of course, to hear the company tell it, the maker of Wonder Bread and Twinkies simply can’t survive ongoing worker strikes at its plants. The company claims its hand was forced when it only came to an agreement with one of its two unions after several months in negotiations.

The union says there’s another way the Twinkie-maker could have avoided liquidating and laying off all of its 18,500 workers: by paying the executives less money. In a press release, the BCTGM claimed Hostess tripled the pay of CEO Gregory Rayburn up to $2,550,000 as the company prepared to file for bankruptcy.

Hostess’ creditors accused the company in April of manipulating executive salaries with the aim of getting around bankruptcy compensation rules, the Wall Street Journal reported at the time. In response, Rayburn announced he would cut his pay and that of other executives to $1 until Dec. 31 or whenever Hostess came out of bankruptcy.

That was after Hostess had already awarded Rayburn’s top four executives raises of between 75 and 80 percent, even though the company had already hired restructuring lawyers, according to the WSJ.

The situation isn't specific to Hostess. Over the last 30 years, CEO pay grew 127 times faster than worker pay, according to a July report.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:54 pm

Phatscotty wrote:America is already #1 in food donation. Most of it goes to feed Americans


Americans are not the ones who need it most. There are hundreds of millions of people in other countries that we should be feeding before Americans, whose poverty is on a completely different level from poverty in undeveloped nations.

Why is the answer with you Progressives always "take xyz away"?


I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone. I want people to take a serious look at the world around them and feel enraged that this still happens in the 21st century. I know that there are around 2 billion people who live on less than $2 of US-equivalent purchasing power per day, and I want to help. I feel morally responsible to help those who I can help without significant cost to myself.

also, just wondering how that fits in with how I assume your position is on world population. I would guess that you think there are too many people on the planet, especially under the lens of someone who believes in global warming. You do understand that if hunger in the world were eradicated, the population would explode and possibly become an even bigger problem, since the number of mouths to feed would at some point eclipse the levels currently produced. Any thoughts on these " :twisted: consequences :P "?


Actually, you've got it backwards. In undeveloped nations the fertility rate is quite high; mothers have lots of children because some of them inevitably die young (in sub-saharan africa, more than 10% of children die before they reach age five!), and they need children to work to earn money and grow food for the family. Many developed nations actually have a fertility rate below the replacement level. So, paradoxically, solving world poverty and world hunger would most likely decrease the world's population (which is indeed one of the things I desire to happen).
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