Unions Shut Down Hostess

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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Iliad on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:00 pm

Phatscotty wrote:He took the cut. Whether or not you give him any credit is another story

I suggested the employees negotiate to get their cut back. Why do you keep asking me that? likes it's my business? or the power is in my hands? The 5,500 bakers union employees shut down a corporation and cost another 12,500 employees their jobs. With that kind of power, I think they can "ask" that the cuts be restored, based on something they come up with in their offer.

A meaningless temporary paycut.

Why should the employees financially sabotage their own wages for the sake of an inefficient company? I've posted this several times, but the workers clearly saw that the proposed paycut was not in their financial self-interest and decided to reject it. The inefficient business of Hostess going bankrupt now only gives more market space to more efficient companies who can expand and hire this labour force.

Why are you against free market capitalism, Scotty? Do you hate freedom?
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Lootifer on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:02 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Pretty bizarre. What is the motivation for a post like that???

Because you were defending teamsters (or more accurately you were applauding their acceptance of the pay cuts); and I dont think they, nor their decision are worthy of support (as shown by my quote).

Apologies for the lack of clarity, im having a brain fart day.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:11 pm

Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Pretty bizarre. What is the motivation for a post like that???

Because you were defending teamsters (or more accurately you were applauding their acceptance of the pay cuts); and I dont think they, nor their decision are worthy of support (as shown by my quote).

Apologies for the lack of clarity, im having a brain fart day.


I wasn't defending them. I was using them to show that it's incorrect to paint me as anti-union only for expecting them to take the 5% pay cut, or negotiate harder for a 4%, or time based, or whatever....One union agreed with what I said they should have agreed to, one union did not. It's no longer a union vs. management discussion (for all intends and purposes)

My biggest problem here is that I have a gut feeling that the union employees turned down the 5% pay cut with a smile on their face, because they are going to sit back and collect unemployment for the next couples years. It also bothers me, because the answer to our economic woes is more jobs/more taxpayers, not less jobs/more "emergency" benefits.

Wages have been going down for a while. We're just on the other side of the longest Recession ever (that was not a depression). Unions needs to get real/adapt/evolve. And if you want to understand where I am coming from, just know that I get a letter in the mail regularly about how my union pension is 98% underfunded and at critical status. So yeah, I know how unions operate, where the money goes, how much is spent on administration, and given to slimy politicians who use their power opposite of my own interests....
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Evil Semp on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:42 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Pretty bizarre. What is the motivation for a post like that???

Because you were defending teamsters (or more accurately you were applauding their acceptance of the pay cuts); and I dont think they, nor their decision are worthy of support (as shown by my quote).

Apologies for the lack of clarity, im having a brain fart day.


I wasn't defending them. I was using them to show that it's incorrect to paint me as anti-union only for expecting them to take the 5% pay cut, or negotiate harder for a 4%, or time based, or whatever....One union agreed with what I said they should have agreed to, one union did not. It's no longer a union vs. management discussion (for all intends and purposes)


I don't think anyone was painting you anti-union. Anti-worker maybe buy not anti-union.

Phatscotty wrote:My biggest problem here is that I have a gut feeling that the union employees turned down the 5% pay cut with a smile on their face, because they are going to sit back and collect unemployment for the next couples years. It also bothers me, because the answer to our economic woes is more jobs/more taxpayers, not less jobs/more "emergency" benefits.


I have a gut feeling that management is sitting there with a smile on their face because they knew not all the unions would accept the cuts with a smile on there face. See I can assume just like you.

Phatscotty wrote:Wages have been going down for a while. We're just on the other side of the longest Recession ever (that was not a depression). Unions needs to get real/adapt/evolve.


Wages have been going down for the worker. I do agree that unions have to rethink their positions.

Phatscotty wrote:And if you want to understand where I am coming from, just know that I get a letter in the mail regularly about how my union pension is 98% underfunded and at critical status. So yeah, I know how unions operate, where the money goes, how much is spent on administration, and given to slimy politicians who use their power opposite of my own interests....


I take your last statement with a grain of salt. Your credibility with me is at almost zero because of this post.

Phatscotty wrote:I have been giving up my annual cost of living increases just to hold on to my health insurance since 2003.....
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Lootifer on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:51 pm

Phatscotty wrote:My biggest problem here is that I have a gut feeling that the union employees turned down the 5% pay cut with a smile on their face, because they are going to sit back and collect unemployment for the next couples years.

I find that hard to believe, but that is based on my NZ pov; we have a pretty big welfare safety net, but even then most low income workers would still rather work than collect the dole (aka welfare) - mostly because it'll be a pay cut (they get less from the doel than their low income job). I dont know if its different in the US; does welfare give you more cash per week than 40 hours of low income work? (I am aware of the welfare cliffs that patches posted, but you only get all of that welfare under certain circumstances such as solo mothers etc, so for sake of argument I am talking about a single working age individual).

It also bothers me, because the answer to our economic woes is more jobs/more taxpayers, not less jobs/more "emergency" benefits.

Government racking up debt to pay for welfare, or a failing company racking up debt to pay unhappy workers. Both are bad for the economy. The best solution is that hostess gets chopped up, sold off, the remaining assets are rejuvinated and some of the 18k workers are re-employed in a new more efficient organisation(s).

Wages have been going down for a while. We're just on the other side of the longest Recession ever (that was not a depression). Unions needs to get real/adapt/evolve. And if you want to understand where I am coming from, just know that I get a letter in the mail regularly about how my union pension is 98% underfunded and at critical status. So yeah, I know how unions operate, where the money goes, how much is spent on administration, and given to slimy politicians who use their power opposite of my own interests....

Im left wing, but im not a unionist by any stretch. As you say the union of old is an outdated entity. Im all for employees fighting collectively for their right, but I dont think you need a union to do it anymore.

However I dont think for a minute that the union decision to reject a wage cut was what caused Hostess to fail; it was the poor strategic management and rising costs (i.e. their balance sheet looked rubbish), I too would reject the pay cut (and not because I am not willing to suck it up for the company, but because the company has a track record of shithouse management). Those employees made the correct decision (via the union) I reckon.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:16 pm

I never said the union was old and outdated. I have specifically said unions have become too strong, too expensive, too regulatory and burdensome, and too powerful a lobby.

If you don't think the union rejection shut down Hostess, then you have to ask yourself this: What if the union voted yes? Why did the company close right after the rejection? And when it comes to rejecting the pay cut. The employees could quit and reject the company entirely by finding a new job at any time of their choosing. Obviously, it wasn't so bad they could no longer work there.....Besides, do you even know how much the employees were making in order to decide whether you would reject or accept the cut, or whether their decision was right or wrong?

Phatscotty wrote:Unions are like fire.

Yes, fire provides heat and cooks your food and provides light to see, and these are all good things, but if you don't keep an eye on the fire, it will burn down your house and kill everyone in your family...
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:52 am

Phatscotty wrote:If you don't think the union rejection shut down Hostess, then you have to ask yourself this: What if the union voted yes? Why did the company close right after the rejection?

Simple answer: PR. The bosses who had run the company into the ground knew that the public has a short attention span and little patience for digging below superficial appearances. They knew that a lot of people would blame it on the union, exactly as has happened.
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