Unions Shut Down Hostess

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderators: Global Moderators, Discussions Team

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:27 pm

MegaProphet wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
tj755 wrote:Good. Shut down all the places that process fake food crap. Maybe then Americans would not be so fat!


We are phat because we have mastered food production and distribution, and produce more than we need.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people think that is a bad thing. Unless I shrug it off as "they just hate America, and attack without thought like barbarians"

Our abundance of food and choices about what we eat are good things, you just need to let people be accountable for their own actions and let them sleep in the beds they make for themselves.

It's only really a bad thing because it leads to an increased chance of heart disease


I don't get what you mean. Of course heart disease as a bad thing, but are you really suggesting we close down all production of foods that you don't think are healthy, or can cause heart disease? Who decides what is healthy and what isn't?

Is that really how things should work in a free country?
Dukasaur wrote:You can save yourself a lot of angst if you turn off CNN.

Image
User avatar
Major Phatscotty
SoC Training Adviser
 
Posts: 1730
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:50 pm
Medals: 86
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (4) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (4) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (3)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (3) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (5)
General Achievement (2) Clan Achievement (10) Training Achievement (6) Tournament Contribution (11) General Contribution (2)

Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:28 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people think that is a bad thing. Unless I shrug it off as "they just hate America, and attack without thought like barbarians"

Our food situation is a good thing


Go outside of America and you'll see that there are 1.3 billion people living on the equivalent of less than $1.25 per day, and nearly one billion people living in hunger. America could basically unilaterally end the world's food shortage if it desired to.

Our food situation is barbaric.

That's not a fair accusation. The world's poor aren't starving because the Americans stole their food; the world's poor are starving because their own leaders stole their food. Almost every country on earth has a food surplus now. Virtually all hunger is created by the nabobs in power, the Parasites in Parliament, the Warlords on their Gilded Humvees, the putrescent corrupt armies of bureaucrats, the corrupt judges and thieving cops, the rent-seekers of every level, choose to extort the wealth of the countryside and concentrate its fruits in their own palaces.

You want to know the cure for hunger? It's called the guillotine.
User avatar
Lieutenant Dukasaur
Head Socialite
Head Socialite
 
Posts: 9472
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:49 pm
Location: Beautiful Niagara
Medals: 125
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (3)
Cross-Map Achievement (4) Beta Map Achievement (2) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (18)
General Achievement (13) Clan Achievement (5) Training Achievement (2) Challenge Achievement (2) Tournament Contribution (31)

Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby MegaProphet on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:34 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
MegaProphet wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
tj755 wrote:Good. Shut down all the places that process fake food crap. Maybe then Americans would not be so fat!


We are phat because we have mastered food production and distribution, and produce more than we need.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people think that is a bad thing. Unless I shrug it off as "they just hate America, and attack without thought like barbarians"

Our abundance of food and choices about what we eat are good things, you just need to let people be accountable for their own actions and let them sleep in the beds they make for themselves.

It's only really a bad thing because it leads to an increased chance of heart disease


I don't get what you mean. Of course heart disease as a bad thing, but are you really suggesting we close down all production of foods that you don't think are healthy, or can cause heart disease? Who decides what is healthy and what isn't?

Is that really how things should work in a free country?

No, that's just the negative that comes with obesity. I agree that our abundance of choice is a good thing, but it can come with consequences. However, that doesn't mean it should be policed
User avatar
Corporal MegaProphet
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:12 pm
Medals: 7
Standard Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (2)
General Achievement (1)

Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:36 pm

MegaProphet wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
MegaProphet wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
tj755 wrote:Good. Shut down all the places that process fake food crap. Maybe then Americans would not be so fat!


We are phat because we have mastered food production and distribution, and produce more than we need.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people think that is a bad thing. Unless I shrug it off as "they just hate America, and attack without thought like barbarians"

Our abundance of food and choices about what we eat are good things, you just need to let people be accountable for their own actions and let them sleep in the beds they make for themselves.

It's only really a bad thing because it leads to an increased chance of heart disease


I don't get what you mean. Of course heart disease as a bad thing, but are you really suggesting we close down all production of foods that you don't think are healthy, or can cause heart disease? Who decides what is healthy and what isn't?

Is that really how things should work in a free country?

No, that's just the negative that comes with obesity. I agree that our abundance of choice is a good thing, but it can come with consequences. However, that doesn't mean it should be policed


okay, just saying, eating too much is the opposite of eating too little IE starvation
Dukasaur wrote:You can save yourself a lot of angst if you turn off CNN.

Image
User avatar
Major Phatscotty
SoC Training Adviser
 
Posts: 1730
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:50 pm
Medals: 86
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (4) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (4) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (3)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (3) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (5)
General Achievement (2) Clan Achievement (10) Training Achievement (6) Tournament Contribution (11) General Contribution (2)

Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:37 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
$1.25 a day can buy a ton of food in many of those countries, so your guilt trip is misleading.


It is not misleading. The World Bank's poverty estimate (what my claim is based on) specifically takes account of purchasing power; that is, 1.3 billion people quite literally do subsist on less than what $1.25 purchases in the United States. Most people would spend more than that on a bottle of water at a convenience store without batting an eye.

But let's go down your path. How would that work? You think it would be a good idea to feed the world, but is it actually possible? without breaking the very market that provided the surplus in the first place?


Yes, it is possible through one of two routes. One is by personal donation. For example, if the top 10% of America donated a modest amount of their income to international aid efforts, America could singlehandledly be responsible for achieving the UN's Millennium Development Goals, which basically aim to eradicate poverty and hunger on the global scale. I'll spare you the details unless you're interested, but it could be done with a progressive scale starting at 5% of income for those earning more than $100,000 per year. The rest of America would not even have to donate, although they could (and should).

Another is by switching to vegetarian diets on the large scale. Annually, the world feeds hundreds of billions of tons of grain to feed animals that we later eat. But the process is incredibly inefficient. For cows, for example, we get fewer than a 10% return in food compared to what we put in (in terms of pounds of food produced). If most of the developed world stopped eating meat, there would be enough food left over to end world hunger. I'm not exaggerating.
User avatar
Lieutenant Metsfanmax
Head Thinker
Head Thinker
 
Posts: 3687
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm
Location: NY
Medals: 40
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (6) Clan Achievement (2)
General Contribution (5)

Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:47 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
$1.25 a day can buy a ton of food in many of those countries, so your guilt trip is misleading.


It is not misleading. The World Bank's poverty estimate (what my claim is based on) specifically takes account of purchasing power; that is, 1.3 billion people quite literally do subsist on less than what $1.25 purchases in the United States. Most people would spend more than that on a bottle of water at a convenience store without batting an eye.

But let's go down your path. How would that work? You think it would be a good idea to feed the world, but is it actually possible? without breaking the very market that provided the surplus in the first place?


Yes, it is possible through one of two routes. One is by personal donation. For example, if the top 10% of America donated a modest amount of their income to international aid efforts, America could singlehandledly be responsible for achieving the UN's Millennium Development Goals, which basically aim to eradicate poverty and hunger on the global scale. I'll spare you the details unless you're interested, but it could be done with a progressive scale starting at 5% of income for those earning more than $100,000 per year. The rest of America would not even have to donate, although they could (and should).

Another is by switching to vegetarian diets on the large scale. Annually, the world feeds hundreds of billions of tons of grain to feed animals that we later eat. But the process is incredibly inefficient. For cows, for example, we get fewer than a 10% return in food compared to what we put in (in terms of pounds of food produced). If most of the developed world stopped eating meat, there would be enough food left over to end world hunger. I'm not exaggerating.


America is already #1 in food donation. Most of it goes to feed Americans

Why is the answer with you Progressives always "take xyz away"?

also, just wondering how that fits in with how I assume your position is on world population. I would guess that you think there are too many people on the planet, especially under the lens of someone who believes in global warming. You do understand that if hunger in the world were eradicated, the population would explode and possibly become an even bigger problem, since the number of mouths to feed would at some point eclipse the levels currently produced. Any thoughts on these " :twisted: consequences :P "?
Dukasaur wrote:You can save yourself a lot of angst if you turn off CNN.

Image
User avatar
Major Phatscotty
SoC Training Adviser
 
Posts: 1730
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:50 pm
Medals: 86
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (4) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (4) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (3)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (3) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (5)
General Achievement (2) Clan Achievement (10) Training Achievement (6) Tournament Contribution (11) General Contribution (2)

Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:47 pm

Dukasaur wrote:That's not a fair accusation. The world's poor aren't starving because the Americans stole their food


Not technically accurate. Climate change is increasingly responsible for food shortages in many of the world's poor nations, and the USA is a major contributor to this climate change.

the world's poor are starving because their own leaders stole their food. Almost every country on earth has a food surplus now.


If you feel morally justified because "only" 20% of countries do not face food shortages, that doesn't change the raw number of people that are persistently hungry, which as I said right now numbers around one billion.

Virtually all hunger is created by the nabobs in power, the Parasites in Parliament, the Warlords on their Gilded Humvees, the putrescent corrupt armies of bureaucrats, the corrupt judges and thieving cops, the rent-seekers of every level, choose to extort the wealth of the countryside and concentrate its fruits in their own palaces.

You want to know the cure for hunger? It's called the guillotine.


Since going in and toppling every dictator in every poor nation is not likely to happen anytime soon, let's find more practical solutions.
User avatar
Lieutenant Metsfanmax
Head Thinker
Head Thinker
 
Posts: 3687
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm
Location: NY
Medals: 40
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (6) Clan Achievement (2)
General Contribution (5)

Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Maugena on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:51 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:There's a premium endcap display next to the register right now at every 7-11 for Hostess. I'm sure Li'l Debbie would love to get her whore hands on that endcap.



Don't you EVER talk about her that way. I've got half a mind to pimp slap you across this thread.

I'm sure that the hostess workers cracked all kinds of sexist jokes about Debbie in the breakroom at the hostess plant but who's laughing now?
Tbh, I think it's even somewhat comical that the hostess workers went on strike in the first place. Did they think that their job of producing rot-gut pastries was that important? They'll loaf for a while until their unemployment runs out and then come crawling on their hands and knees to to Little Debbie's doorstep. Ginger-SNAP.

Hey! I LOVE that sentence! It's my new god damn signature!
Scatter me into the wind, drifting for eternity, forever undone.
Blissfully through with reality's unacceptable nature and apparent being.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKjzDU7V7es
User avatar
New Recruit Maugena
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:07 pm

Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Evil Semp on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:54 pm

Phatscotty wrote:I have been giving up my annual cost of living increases just to hold on to my health insurance since 2003.....


Didn't you just change jobs in the past couple of years? I thought you moved to accept another job.

One reason these employees don't want to give up what the company is asking for. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/1 ... 47043.html

Hostess could have ensured the Twinkie's survival simply by paying the executives less, one of the unions organizing company workers alleges.

Of course, to hear the company tell it, the maker of Wonder Bread and Twinkies simply can’t survive ongoing worker strikes at its plants. The company claims its hand was forced when it only came to an agreement with one of its two unions after several months in negotiations.

The union says there’s another way the Twinkie-maker could have avoided liquidating and laying off all of its 18,500 workers: by paying the executives less money. In a press release, the BCTGM claimed Hostess tripled the pay of CEO Gregory Rayburn up to $2,550,000 as the company prepared to file for bankruptcy.

Hostess’ creditors accused the company in April of manipulating executive salaries with the aim of getting around bankruptcy compensation rules, the Wall Street Journal reported at the time. In response, Rayburn announced he would cut his pay and that of other executives to $1 until Dec. 31 or whenever Hostess came out of bankruptcy.

That was after Hostess had already awarded Rayburn’s top four executives raises of between 75 and 80 percent, even though the company had already hired restructuring lawyers, according to the WSJ.

The situation isn't specific to Hostess. Over the last 30 years, CEO pay grew 127 times faster than worker pay, according to a July report.
Image
User avatar
Sergeant Evil Semp
Multi Hunter
Multi Hunter
 
Posts: 7039
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:50 pm
Medals: 76
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (21) General Achievement (6) Clan Achievement (1) General Contribution (11)

Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:54 pm

Phatscotty wrote:America is already #1 in food donation. Most of it goes to feed Americans


Americans are not the ones who need it most. There are hundreds of millions of people in other countries that we should be feeding before Americans, whose poverty is on a completely different level from poverty in undeveloped nations.

Why is the answer with you Progressives always "take xyz away"?


I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone. I want people to take a serious look at the world around them and feel enraged that this still happens in the 21st century. I know that there are around 2 billion people who live on less than $2 of US-equivalent purchasing power per day, and I want to help. I feel morally responsible to help those who I can help without significant cost to myself.

also, just wondering how that fits in with how I assume your position is on world population. I would guess that you think there are too many people on the planet, especially under the lens of someone who believes in global warming. You do understand that if hunger in the world were eradicated, the population would explode and possibly become an even bigger problem, since the number of mouths to feed would at some point eclipse the levels currently produced. Any thoughts on these " :twisted: consequences :P "?


Actually, you've got it backwards. In undeveloped nations the fertility rate is quite high; mothers have lots of children because some of them inevitably die young (in sub-saharan africa, more than 10% of children die before they reach age five!), and they need children to work to earn money and grow food for the family. Many developed nations actually have a fertility rate below the replacement level. So, paradoxically, solving world poverty and world hunger would most likely decrease the world's population (which is indeed one of the things I desire to happen).
User avatar
Lieutenant Metsfanmax
Head Thinker
Head Thinker
 
Posts: 3687
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm
Location: NY
Medals: 40
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (6) Clan Achievement (2)
General Contribution (5)

Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:55 pm

Maugena wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:There's a premium endcap display next to the register right now at every 7-11 for Hostess. I'm sure Li'l Debbie would love to get her whore hands on that endcap.



Don't you EVER talk about her that way. I've got half a mind to pimp slap you across this thread.

I'm sure that the hostess workers cracked all kinds of sexist jokes about Debbie in the breakroom at the hostess plant but who's laughing now?
Tbh, I think it's even somewhat comical that the hostess workers went on strike in the first place. Did they think that their job of producing rot-gut pastries was that important? They'll loaf for a while until their unemployment runs out and then come crawling on their hands and knees to to Little Debbie's doorstep. Ginger-SNAP.

Hey! I LOVE that sentence! It's my new god damn signature!


I'm very happy for you. ;)
User avatar
Colonel Funkyterrance
 
Posts: 1924
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:52 pm
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Medals: 22
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (3) General Contribution (1)

Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:56 pm

Evil Semp wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I have been giving up my annual cost of living increases just to hold on to my health insurance since 2003.....


Didn't you just change jobs in the past couple of years? I thought you moved to accept another job.

One reason these employees don't want to give up what the company is asking for. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/1 ... 47043.html

Hostess could have ensured the Twinkie's survival simply by paying the executives less, one of the unions organizing company workers alleges.

Of course, to hear the company tell it, the maker of Wonder Bread and Twinkies simply can’t survive ongoing worker strikes at its plants. The company claims its hand was forced when it only came to an agreement with one of its two unions after several months in negotiations.

The union says there’s another way the Twinkie-maker could have avoided liquidating and laying off all of its 18,500 workers: by paying the executives less money. In a press release, the BCTGM claimed Hostess tripled the pay of CEO Gregory Rayburn up to $2,550,000 as the company prepared to file for bankruptcy.

Hostess’ creditors accused the company in April of manipulating executive salaries with the aim of getting around bankruptcy compensation rules, the Wall Street Journal reported at the time. In response, Rayburn announced he would cut his pay and that of other executives to $1 until Dec. 31 or whenever Hostess came out of bankruptcy.

That was after Hostess had already awarded Rayburn’s top four executives raises of between 75 and 80 percent, even though the company had already hired restructuring lawyers, according to the WSJ.

The situation isn't specific to Hostess. Over the last 30 years, CEO pay grew 127 times faster than worker pay, according to a July report.


Yes, I did switch. The main point was that we were doing these things 10 years ago. I understand it sounds like I said I still have that job. I am sorry
Dukasaur wrote:You can save yourself a lot of angst if you turn off CNN.

Image
User avatar
Major Phatscotty
SoC Training Adviser
 
Posts: 1730
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:50 pm
Medals: 86
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (4) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (4) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (3)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (3) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (5)
General Achievement (2) Clan Achievement (10) Training Achievement (6) Tournament Contribution (11) General Contribution (2)

Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:04 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:America is already #1 in food donation. Most of it goes to feed Americans


Metsfanmax wrote:Americans are not the ones who need it most. There are hundreds of millions of people in other countries that we should be feeding before Americans, whose poverty is on a completely different level from poverty in undeveloped nations.


Phatscotty wrote:Oops, forgot everything is based on "to each according to their needs" and wouldn't understand Americans helping out their neighbors that they see with their own eyes and have skin in the same game, and expect the help to be redistributed to strangers on the other side of the planet who's government is probably hostile to our own and we are just feeding their soldiers.....



Why is the answer with you Progressives always "take xyz away"?


Metsfanmax wrote:I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone. I want people to take a serious look at the world around them and feel enraged that this still happens in the 21st century. I know that there are around 2 billion people who live on less than $2 of US-equivalent purchasing power per day, and I want to help. I feel morally responsible to help those who I can help without significant cost to myself.


Phatscotty wrote:Yes, you suggested meat be taken away. I'm sure that will happen someday under an advanced planning program through Obamacare, because banning meat would save the government millions on treating heart disease



also, just wondering how that fits in with how I assume your position is on world population. I would guess that you think there are too many people on the planet, especially under the lens of someone who believes in global warming. You do understand that if hunger in the world were eradicated, the population would explode and possibly become an even bigger problem, since the number of mouths to feed would at some point eclipse the levels currently produced. Any thoughts on these " :twisted: consequences :P "?


Metsfanmax wrote:Actually, you've got it backwards. In undeveloped nations the fertility rate is quite high; mothers have lots of children because some of them inevitably die young (in sub-saharan africa, more than 10% of children die before they reach age five!), and they need children to work to earn money and grow food for the family. Many developed nations actually have a fertility rate below the replacement level. So, paradoxically, solving world poverty and world hunger would most likely decrease the world's population (which is indeed one of the things I desire to happen).


Phatscotty wrote:I knew it! I think if we solved world hunger, there would instantly be a billion more mouths to feed by the end of the first year. I do see your points partially, and they are good points, but I think the main factor is that access to and production of food is the main driver of population growth.
Dukasaur wrote:You can save yourself a lot of angst if you turn off CNN.

Image
User avatar
Major Phatscotty
SoC Training Adviser
 
Posts: 1730
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:50 pm
Medals: 86
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (4) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (4) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (3)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (3) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (5)
General Achievement (2) Clan Achievement (10) Training Achievement (6) Tournament Contribution (11) General Contribution (2)

Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:24 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Oops, forgot everything is based on "to each according to their needs" and wouldn't understand Americans helping out their neighbors that they see with their own eyes and have skin in the same game, and expect the help to be redistributed to strangers on the other side of the planet who's government is probably hostile to our own and we are just feeding their soldiers.....


It is indeed human nature to feel more kinship for those around them, who they are close to and possibly see on a regular basis. But that does not justify a moral stance where people are dying of preventable problems and we can be the ones to prevent them, and instead we do nothing. If people are dying and living in extreme poverty, even if they are halfway around the world, should we not help? Should we let this awful state continue because we cannot see them? I don't know how one can justify this. If there were Americans living like those in sub-Saharan Africa, you would have a strong argument. But Americans have a much higher standard of living than those in undeveloped nations, even the Americans under our poverty level. From a moral perspective, I would argue we need to solve world hunger and world poverty as a foremost priority. That is not necessarily exclusive with also helping out those in America, obviously, nor should it be. It would be senseless for a government to abandon its citizens. But doing both would require a significant rethinking of how our government collects and spends money, and it is not a change that can happen quickly.

Phatscotty wrote:Yes, you suggested meat be taken away. I'm sure that will happen someday under an advanced planning program through Obamacare, because banning meat would save the government millions on treating heart disease


Actually, it may very well happen someday, but because of the very same food shortages we are talking about and not by choice. See, for example, this article.

Phatscotty wrote:I knew it! I think if we solved world hunger, there would instantly be a billion more mouths to feed by the end of the first year. I do see your points partially, and they are good points, but I think the main factor is that access to and production of food is the main driver of population growth.


Well, that is true in the sense that as long as we are able to keep producing more food, there will be no natural incentive for global population growth to decline. But the people who run the numbers on this seem to come to the conclusion that population growth is going to continue and eventually outstrip food production increases (in fact, this may already be happening -- the Guardian article talks about this a little bit). In other words, it looks like people are going to continue to have babies even if there's not enough food to put in their mouths. I mean, isn't this what has already happened? We couldn't have gotten to the situation we're in without unchecked population growth. In fact, we may very well have been in a Malthusian scenario if the Green Revolution had not occurred. That held off the issue for a few decades, but population growth hasn't slowed, and we're going to face the problem again in the coming decades.

Since taking steps to end world hunger would end suffering that is occurring now and at least has a chance of slowing population growth (based on the argument I made about how developed nations have lower fertility rates in general), I believe it to be the morally correct choice.
User avatar
Lieutenant Metsfanmax
Head Thinker
Head Thinker
 
Posts: 3687
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm
Location: NY
Medals: 40
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (6) Clan Achievement (2)
General Contribution (5)

Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:28 pm

okay, I want to ask something else.

How much food can you get for $1.25 in China? Laos? Somalia? Guatemala?
Dukasaur wrote:You can save yourself a lot of angst if you turn off CNN.

Image
User avatar
Major Phatscotty
SoC Training Adviser
 
Posts: 1730
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:50 pm
Medals: 86
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (4) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (4) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (3)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (3) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (5)
General Achievement (2) Clan Achievement (10) Training Achievement (6) Tournament Contribution (11) General Contribution (2)

PreviousNext

Return to Whose Forum is It Anyway?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: jonesthecurl, patches70, The Bison King and 4 guests

Login