Unions Shut Down Hostess

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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby MeDeFe on Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:58 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:okay, I want to ask something else.

How much food can you get for $1.25 in China? Laos? Somalia? Guatemala?


I used to make the assumption you did, PS: when people quoted numbers about how many people were living on less than $1/day, I knew that one US dollar would purchase a lot more in those nations than it would in the US. When I learned that this assumption was incorrect, and that the estimate of > 1 billion was based on purchasing power parity, I was stunned. It is quite seriously true that for 1.3 billion people around the world, their daily subsistence is based on what you could buy for $1.25 in an American supermarket. You can't buy a lot for that amount of money in such a supermarket. As I pointed out, a two liter bottle of soda costs more than that. Another way to think about it is to take what $1.25 would buy in the US, and convert that to whatever amount of local currency units would buy the same amount of food. The end result is the same. It's explicitly not based on exchange rates, which is what you are thinking of.

I'm such an American that I can hardly even imagine what it's like to live that way, and I've never visited an undeveloped nation that could help me see for myself. It's honestly hard for me to process, given how much relative wealth exists around me. I just know it's bad.


:cough cough:

source....

He already provided it... Look up a few posts.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=181339&start=60#p3959465
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:12 am

Im sure the management of the company, had nothing to do with its demise.

Definitely blame the workers, who were going in every day, and just trying to make a living, and organizing to do it.

I agree in this case, they perhaps didn't understand the situation, but to suggest workers were responsible, and not the management that obviously ran the company, is as short-sighted as many of the night-strikes...
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:14 am

Phatscotty wrote:
I just want to explore the reasons the union members walked off the job.


I for one suggest you go there and interview them personally.

And I fucking beg you...please bring a cameraman....with a splash-guard. :lol:
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby thegreekdog on Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:04 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Have you donated time or money to ending world hunger?


No. I have a finite amount of money to donate to charitable causes (and not a lot of it either, since I'm still just a grad student), so I have to prioritize what I think is the most good I can do with my donation. Therefore I have chosen instead to donate money to efforts that directly save lives. For example, one of the leading causes (if not the most prominent) right now, is distributing bed nets to people at risk from malaria. A single net costs only a few dollars and protects against malaria, which is a deadly disease especially in Africa (malaria still kills more than half a million people per year).

Now, the research and the general consensus is that the most effective way most Americans can help is donations of money. It really is hard to donate personal time to help people on a different continent. I think that some day I would like to visit Africa and do so, but it won't happen any time soon.

I would consider donating 5% of my annual income for one year if certain assurances were made. I'm of the same opinion as Dukasaur in that underdevleoped countries would probably not be able to do much with my 5% (through no fault of their own).


This is of course a valid concern. I recommend looking into http://www.GiveWell.org. Their main job is to evaluate the efficacy of various charitable organizations, and determine which ones are the most cost effective in terms of donations. Periodically they update their list of recommended top charities, and the two they list have been selected both on the basis of need (obviously there are a lot of effective charities out there, but not all of them need money as their top priority) and on how well they have proven that their work actually does use people's donations effectively. I believe that you would be doing a significant amount of good if you even just donated your 5% to their top charity. But don't take my word for it -- look at their analysis!

They also research plenty of other organizations, so you can see what they have to say about a particular cause you are interested in, and how effective your donation would be.


I have never donated to non-US charities before. I probably won't do it until there is more security associated with such donations. There are enough people in the immediate area where I live who need help.

As to your own situation, it appears you've made a similar value judgment to most Americans as to how your dollars and time are best spent, so I would say your critiques are misplaced. Most people don't like getting reprimanded by someone who does not practice what he/she preaches. This is not a criticism per se, just something you should think about. I get more angry with someone like Warren Buffett, who preaches about the rich paying more taxes, and yet who does not pay more taxes himself (or pay his poor secretary more money).
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby jimboston on Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:12 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
No one that I know of demands access to Twinkies like people demand access to alcohol (except for Woody Harrelson's character in Zombieland). Most people buy Twinkies because they're easy to buy in a grocery store, and cheap, not because they particularly love Twinkies. If you banned Twinkies, my bet is there would be no public outrage and consequent Twinkie black market.


Twinkies were selling on EBay yesterday after the announcement for double their normal store price.

There's been a rush on these things and hoarding. There IS a "black market". :)
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby jimboston on Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:13 am

Phatscotty wrote:Image


AWESOME!
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby jimboston on Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:23 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:okay, I want to ask something else.

How much food can you get for $1.25 in China? Laos? Somalia? Guatemala?


I used to make the assumption you did, PS: when people quoted numbers about how many people were living on less than $1/day, I knew that one US dollar would purchase a lot more in those nations than it would in the US. When I learned that this assumption was incorrect, and that the estimate of > 1 billion was based on purchasing power parity, I was stunned. It is quite seriously true that for 1.3 billion people around the world, their daily subsistence is based on what you could buy for $1.25 in an American supermarket. You can't buy a lot for that amount of money in such a supermarket. As I pointed out, a two liter bottle of soda costs more than that. Another way to think about it is to take what $1.25 would buy in the US, and convert that to whatever amount of local currency units would buy the same amount of food. The end result is the same. It's explicitly not based on exchange rates, which is what you are thinking of.

I'm such an American that I can hardly even imagine what it's like to live that way, and I've never visited an undeveloped nation that could help me see for myself. It's honestly hard for me to process, given how much relative wealth exists around me. I just know it's bad.


$1.25 ... is that per person or per family?

If you're thrifty you can make $1.25 go a long way. I'm not saying you wouldn't be hunger... you would. You'd not have a very healthy diet... you'd be missing a lot of essential vitamins and minerals... but you would load of up 'cheap calories'.

I never came close to $1.25... but in college I "lived on" probably $5 a day for long stretches.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby GreecePwns on Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:57 am

$1.25 in an American supermarket gets you nothing. Absolutely nothing. Maybe one banana OR a pack of gum OR a water bottle and that's it.

I love that Phatscotty actually used the word "donated" to describe a pay cut, which would have been used to once again raise the CEO's salary several times over (as has been done in the past at this company). I don't blame the union for standing up to this.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Metsfanmax on Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:19 am

thegreekdog wrote:I have never donated to non-US charities before. I probably won't do it until there is more security associated with such donations. There are enough people in the immediate area where I live who need help.


As I said, I think the moral argument is clear for helping people in southern Asia and sub-Saharan Africa. If you want to help both groups, good for you. But I can't help feeling that someone in Africa should not get less of my money than someone in America just because they didn't have the fortune of being born in the USA.

As to your own situation, it appears you've made a similar value judgment to most Americans as to how your dollars and time are best spent, so I would say your critiques are misplaced. Most people don't like getting reprimanded by someone who does not practice what he/she preaches. This is not a criticism per se, just something you should think about.


I said that I do give money to people in need in Africa; I just said that the area I donate my money to is not the cause of eradicating world hunger, per se, but saving lives against disease and other harmful effects. Giving food aid is generally thought to be a bad idea; it does not give developing villages any ability to become self-sustaining. Therefore it is generally accepted wisdom that the best way to help is either through donations to help people reduce poverty, or through aid that helps communities build sustainable crop growing, etc. The Millennium Villages Project is attempting to do just this on a large scale in Africa. Microloans are also one of the big ways people contribute nowadays, and this can indirectly help with the world hunger problem, too.

I think it would be a great thing if people joined me in doing so. You don't have to pick the same cause as me; there's many areas people can help. I'm happy to give advice or ideas if people do want to help but don't know where to start.

I get more angry with someone like Warren Buffett, who preaches about the rich paying more taxes, and yet who does not pay more taxes himself (or pay his poor secretary more money).


Say what you will about Warren Buffett; the man pledged over $30 billion to charitable causes. If every person had the investment skill he did, and then used their incredible earnings to combat world poverty, we'd end this problem in no time.

jimboston wrote:$1.25 ... is that per person or per family?


It is per person.

If you're thrifty you can make $1.25 go a long way. I'm not saying you wouldn't be hunger... you would. You'd not have a very healthy diet... you'd be missing a lot of essential vitamins and minerals... but you would load of up 'cheap calories'.


It is true that you could basically buy some rice or something, and you'd have to make it last. But the fact that many people can survive that way doesn't mean that they should; it leads to malnutrition, which causes its own problems. It's certainly not a good plan to live that way for years at a time.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Night Strike on Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:31 am

Metsfanmax wrote:Yes, it is possible through one of two routes. One is by personal donation. For example, if the top 10% of America donated a modest amount of their income to international aid efforts, America could singlehandledly be responsible for achieving the UN's Millennium Development Goals, which basically aim to eradicate poverty and hunger on the global scale. I'll spare you the details unless you're interested, but it could be done with a progressive scale starting at 5% of income for those earning more than $100,000 per year. The rest of America would not even have to donate, although they could (and should).

Another is by switching to vegetarian diets on the large scale. Annually, the world feeds hundreds of billions of tons of grain to feed animals that we later eat. But the process is incredibly inefficient. For cows, for example, we get fewer than a 10% return in food compared to what we put in (in terms of pounds of food produced). If most of the developed world stopped eating meat, there would be enough food left over to end world hunger. I'm not exaggerating.


Yep, it's no longer good enough for the "evil rich 'merikans" to pay 40% of income to federal government, 10% to state government, and a bunch of other taxes and fees on every thing else. They now must pay money directly to the UN in order to "feed" other people. What ever happened to people working to better their OWN lives and the lives of their families? When will people be able to work for themselves instead of the government? It was mentioned already in this thread that when people don't get enough money for their time, they'll quit doing that job because they're wasting their time. Don't be naive enough to think that the exact same thing won't happen with those people who are spending the vast majority of their time working for the government instead of themselves.

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Have you donated time or money to ending world hunger?


No. I have a finite amount of money to donate to charitable causes (and not a lot of it either, since I'm still just a grad student), so I have to prioritize what I think is the most good I can do with my donation. Therefore I have chosen instead to donate money to efforts that directly save lives. For example, one of the leading causes (if not the most prominent) right now, is distributing bed nets to people at risk from malaria. A single net costs only a few dollars and protects against malaria, which is a deadly disease especially in Africa (malaria still kills more than half a million people per year).


Malaria was about to be eradicated until the environmentalist demanded that they stop. Environmentalists chose to save birds over humans.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Metsfanmax on Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:44 am

Night Strike wrote:Yep, it's no longer good enough for the "evil rich 'merikans" to pay 40% of income to federal government, 10% to state government, and a bunch of other taxes and fees on every thing else. They now must pay money directly to the UN in order to "feed" other people. What ever happened to people working to better their OWN lives and the lives of their families? When will people be able to work for themselves instead of the government? It was mentioned already in this thread that when people don't get enough money for their time, they'll quit doing that job because they're wasting their time. Don't be naive enough to think that the exact same thing won't happen with those people who are spending the vast majority of their time working for the government instead of themselves.


I didn't say people have to do anything. I'm just asking people to consider giving a small fraction of their income, an amount that for most people would not substantially affect their happiness and comfort level, to causes that help people that are in much more dire circumstances than people in the USA. If you don't feel that you can afford to do so, that's ok. But if you have extra money that you don't need for basic necessities such as food, rent, etc., I ask you to consider contributing to such causes. There's a lot more that you can do for somebody with that extra money than you could do for yourself; you could go out for a nice dinner and movie, or you could use that money to try and save a life. And I bet that if you try the latter, you'll feel a lot more fulfilled than if you had gone to see the movie. Try it. If I'm wrong, no harm done, and you can go back to the way things were.

I think that many people who earn under $100,000 could give away 1% of their income without significantly affecting their comfort level. And you'd be doing an incredible amount of good. That $1000 can very likely save a life.

Malaria was about to be eradicated until the environmentalist demanded that they stop. Environmentalists chose to save birds over humans.


Agricultural pesticides such as DDT were shown to poison water supplies, and cause increased levels of cancer in humans. We were saving more than just the birds and the plants; we were helping to save ourselves by no longer doing that way. We can still use insectides to end malaria, and in fact we are doing so; we are just also doing so in a way that doesn't threaten human health by poisoning our food and water.

Incidentally, in many areas DDT is no longer even effective due to a resistance built up among mosquitoes.
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Postby 2dimes on Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:52 am

Actually when Canada exports junk food to fill the void it will be all the same Hostess stuff since Suputo is unaffected.

But carry on with what you guys are discussing.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Nola_Lifer on Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:19 pm

AAFitz wrote:Im sure the management of the company, had nothing to do with its demise.

Definitely blame the workers, who were going in every day, and just trying to make a living, and organizing to do it.

I agree in this case, they perhaps didn't understand the situation, but to suggest workers were responsible, and not the management that obviously ran the company, is as short-sighted as many of the night-strikes...


What is there to understand? I agree with what you said but, as you say, management miss managed so the workers have to take the pay cut to save the company. The workers did their job, so why should they pay for mismanagement? You can't piss on the workers for simply doing their job and not being satisfied with a pay cut.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby notyou2 on Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:42 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
patches70 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I just want to explore the reasons the union members walked off the job.


I have no idea, I'd guess because they weren't making enough money. Now they're making nothing, but it's all good. Now each person can explore other options in life, instead of trying to rely on a dead company.

"Let the dead bury the dead"

AOG wrote:Isn't Hostess just going to sell the rights to the Twinkie to some other brand?

Yes! Anything of value will be liquidated. I'd bet a nickel to a doughnut that Grupo Bimbo will get many of the various trademarks of Hostess. They tried to buy the company outright back in 2006, after all.


I can't help but wonder if 99 weeks of unemployment benefits has something to do with it. They will probably take a 20% cut, but I bet that's okay with some of them, if not many of them


You sure do have a pessimistic outlook on life. How do you live day to day? The freeloading bums of your country must drive you bonkers. You need to take things into your own hands. I assume you have an arsenal and ammunition?
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:40 pm

notyou2 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
patches70 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I just want to explore the reasons the union members walked off the job.


I have no idea, I'd guess because they weren't making enough money. Now they're making nothing, but it's all good. Now each person can explore other options in life, instead of trying to rely on a dead company.

"Let the dead bury the dead"

AOG wrote:Isn't Hostess just going to sell the rights to the Twinkie to some other brand?

Yes! Anything of value will be liquidated. I'd bet a nickel to a doughnut that Grupo Bimbo will get many of the various trademarks of Hostess. They tried to buy the company outright back in 2006, after all.


I can't help but wonder if 99 weeks of unemployment benefits has something to do with it. They will probably take a 20% cut, but I bet that's okay with some of them, if not many of them


You sure do have a pessimistic outlook on life. How do you live day to day? The freeloading bums of your country must drive you bonkers. You need to take things into your own hands. I assume you have an arsenal and ammunition?


:roll:

Why does it always have to be about me??? I don't have anything to do with it.
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