Unions Shut Down Hostess

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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby thegreekdog on Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:00 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:As I said, I think the moral argument is clear for helping people in southern Asia and sub-Saharan Africa. If you want to help both groups, good for you. But I can't help feeling that someone in Africa should not get less of my money than someone in America just because they didn't have the fortune of being born in the USA.


I don't disagree with that.

Metsfanmax wrote:I said that I do give money to people in need in Africa; I just said that the area I donate my money to is not the cause of eradicating world hunger, per se, but saving lives against disease and other harmful effects. Giving food aid is generally thought to be a bad idea; it does not give developing villages any ability to become self-sustaining. Therefore it is generally accepted wisdom that the best way to help is either through donations to help people reduce poverty, or through aid that helps communities build sustainable crop growing, etc. The Millennium Villages Project is attempting to do just this on a large scale in Africa. Microloans are also one of the big ways people contribute nowadays, and this can indirectly help with the world hunger problem, too.

I think it would be a great thing if people joined me in doing so. You don't have to pick the same cause as me; there's many areas people can help. I'm happy to give advice or ideas if people do want to help but don't know where to start.


I'll take a look and make a decision.

Metsfanmax wrote:Say what you will about Warren Buffett; the man pledged over $30 billion to charitable causes. If every person had the investment skill he did, and then used their incredible earnings to combat world poverty, we'd end this problem in no time.


I don't like being told I'm rich by someone who has thousands of times the net worth that I do. I don't like being told I need to "pay my fair share" by someone like that either. If Warren Buffett put himself into a position where he was in the middle class, I would be more likely to take him seriously. His pledging $30 billion to charitable causes (whatever that means) does not sway to support paying more tax dollars while I do my tax return from the comfort of my $200 couch in my small two-bedroom townhouse.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Nola_Lifer on Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:03 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
notyou2 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
patches70 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I just want to explore the reasons the union members walked off the job.


I have no idea, I'd guess because they weren't making enough money. Now they're making nothing, but it's all good. Now each person can explore other options in life, instead of trying to rely on a dead company.

"Let the dead bury the dead"

AOG wrote:Isn't Hostess just going to sell the rights to the Twinkie to some other brand?

Yes! Anything of value will be liquidated. I'd bet a nickel to a doughnut that Grupo Bimbo will get many of the various trademarks of Hostess. They tried to buy the company outright back in 2006, after all.


I can't help but wonder if 99 weeks of unemployment benefits has something to do with it. They will probably take a 20% cut, but I bet that's okay with some of them, if not many of them


You sure do have a pessimistic outlook on life. How do you live day to day? The freeloading bums of your country must drive you bonkers. You need to take things into your own hands. I assume you have an arsenal and ammunition?


:roll:

Why does it always have to be about me??? I don't have anything to do with it.



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I don't have access to whole article.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 06050.html
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby spurgistan on Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:58 pm

Yes, the private equity firms who wanted the unions to take cuts for the second time in three years probably didn't have anything to do with it. Probably.
Mr_Adams wrote:You, sir, are an idiot.


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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby karel on Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:33 pm

well 1 good thing,is americans wont be getting as fat
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby aad0906 on Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:21 am

spurgistan wrote:Yes, the private equity firms who wanted the unions to take cuts for the second time in three years probably didn't have anything to do with it. Probably.


Nope, it's not management's fault either. They did such a good job last year that they received 80% pay increase. But don't worry because the private equity firms, our nation's "job creators" will see their secured loans repaid from the proceeds of the sale of the brands/trademarks/recipe's.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:04 am

aad0906 wrote:
spurgistan wrote:Yes, the private equity firms who wanted the unions to take cuts for the second time in three years probably didn't have anything to do with it. Probably.


Nope, it's not management's fault either. They did such a good job last year that they received 80% pay increase. But don't worry because the private equity firms, our nation's "job creators" will see their secured loans repaid from the proceeds of the sale of the brands/trademarks/recipe's.



I'm with this guy.
This is so obviously the fault of the horrible management that to even suggest that the union was to blame is treason of the conscience.
I stand with the Union. Fool me once, shame on you. But fool me twice,....
& American's do not give into threats or terrorism, no matter what. I'm proud of them for bravely standing by our principles, come what may.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:18 am

Metsfanmax wrote:Say what you will about Warren Buffett; the man pledged over $30 billion to charitable causes. If every person had the investment skill he did, and then used their incredible earnings to combat world poverty, we'd end this problem in no time.


If every person only had the investment skills he has, there would be absolutely nothing to invest in.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:25 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:
aad0906 wrote:
spurgistan wrote:Yes, the private equity firms who wanted the unions to take cuts for the second time in three years probably didn't have anything to do with it. Probably.


Nope, it's not management's fault either. They did such a good job last year that they received 80% pay increase. But don't worry because the private equity firms, our nation's "job creators" will see their secured loans repaid from the proceeds of the sale of the brands/trademarks/recipe's.



I'm with this guy.
This is so obviously the fault of the horrible management that to even suggest that the union was to blame is treason of the conscience.
I stand with the Union. Fool me once, shame on you. But fool me twice,....
& American's do not give into threats or terrorism, no matter what. I'm proud of them for bravely standing by our principles, come what may.


A good nightstrike gives no weight to reason, reality, or common sense, and this is a typical nightstrike.

There is no doubt that the people in the families that worked in Unions, and whose lives were made better by Unions, and allowed for their descendants to go to colleges and universities in order to gain a middle management position, are rolling in their graves, as their hard work and sacrifice are being pissed on by the very benefactors of that sacrifice.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby thegreekdog on Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:28 am

aad0906 wrote:
spurgistan wrote:Yes, the private equity firms who wanted the unions to take cuts for the second time in three years probably didn't have anything to do with it. Probably.


Nope, it's not management's fault either. They did such a good job last year that they received 80% pay increase. But don't worry because the private equity firms, our nation's "job creators" will see their secured loans repaid from the proceeds of the sale of the brands/trademarks/recipe's.


Mother of pearl, you guys give me a headache. It looks like, if nothing else, the 2012 presidential election has generated a lot of angst against private equity firms. Private equity firms save jobs. There is no benefit to private equity owners if the business they just bought goes under. How is that hard to understand? I'm waiting for you all to start an anti-private equity group.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:29 am

Nola_Lifer wrote:
AAFitz wrote:Im sure the management of the company, had nothing to do with its demise.

Definitely blame the workers, who were going in every day, and just trying to make a living, and organizing to do it.

I agree in this case, they perhaps didn't understand the situation, but to suggest workers were responsible, and not the management that obviously ran the company, is as short-sighted as many of the night-strikes...


What is there to understand? I agree with what you said but, as you say, management miss managed so the workers have to take the pay cut to save the company. The workers did their job, so why should they pay for mismanagement? You can't piss on the workers for simply doing their job and not being satisfied with a pay cut.


Well, technically I didn't say management miss-managed anything....All my suggestion about "understanding the situation" means, is that its possible they didn't realize the company would fail, and perhaps for some, the pay-cut would have been better.

That being said, I'm sure a lot of slaves would have been better served by just working and not rebelling against their masters throughout history, but that doesn't necessarily mean they made the wrong decision.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:30 am

thegreekdog wrote:
aad0906 wrote:
spurgistan wrote:Yes, the private equity firms who wanted the unions to take cuts for the second time in three years probably didn't have anything to do with it. Probably.


Nope, it's not management's fault either. They did such a good job last year that they received 80% pay increase. But don't worry because the private equity firms, our nation's "job creators" will see their secured loans repaid from the proceeds of the sale of the brands/trademarks/recipe's.


Mother of pearl, you guys give me a headache. It looks like, if nothing else, the 2012 presidential election has generated a lot of angst against private equity firms. Private equity firms save jobs. There is no benefit to private equity owners if the business they just bought goes under. How is that hard to understand? I'm waiting for you all to start an anti-private equity group.


APEGPAC for America!!!!
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:33 am

AndyDufresne wrote:So it sounds the headline should be: "Hostess Run Into the Ground by a Changing America, though Unions Give it a Little Kick" Haha.


--Andy


Way to close to the truth for that title. Come on, be serious. This is a political discussion, we have no time for sanity. Grow up.

Also, I apologize for so many posts....I just happened to give up all the crap foods that hostess produced, and I have way more energy now...
though this whole discussion absolutely brings back the cravings for the crap.
Last edited by AAFitz on Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby thegreekdog on Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:34 am

AAFitz wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
aad0906 wrote:
spurgistan wrote:Yes, the private equity firms who wanted the unions to take cuts for the second time in three years probably didn't have anything to do with it. Probably.


Nope, it's not management's fault either. They did such a good job last year that they received 80% pay increase. But don't worry because the private equity firms, our nation's "job creators" will see their secured loans repaid from the proceeds of the sale of the brands/trademarks/recipe's.


Mother of pearl, you guys give me a headache. It looks like, if nothing else, the 2012 presidential election has generated a lot of angst against private equity firms. Private equity firms save jobs. There is no benefit to private equity owners if the business they just bought goes under. How is that hard to understand? I'm waiting for you all to start an anti-private equity group.


APEGPAC for America!!!!


That actually works.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:35 am

thegreekdog wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
aad0906 wrote:
spurgistan wrote:Yes, the private equity firms who wanted the unions to take cuts for the second time in three years probably didn't have anything to do with it. Probably.


Nope, it's not management's fault either. They did such a good job last year that they received 80% pay increase. But don't worry because the private equity firms, our nation's "job creators" will see their secured loans repaid from the proceeds of the sale of the brands/trademarks/recipe's.


Mother of pearl, you guys give me a headache. It looks like, if nothing else, the 2012 presidential election has generated a lot of angst against private equity firms. Private equity firms save jobs. There is no benefit to private equity owners if the business they just bought goes under. How is that hard to understand? I'm waiting for you all to start an anti-private equity group.


APEGPAC for America!!!!


That actually works.


Oh, I know. Thats the problem. Stupid fucking people, enable stupid fucking things.

That being said, Im sure there are some PEG's out there, that have probably taken a little more than they've helped.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:05 pm

seems to be that we are placing the blame based on politics. The left blames the management/ownership, the right blames the union employees.

Everything is political starting now!
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby GreecePwns on Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:07 pm

The illogical right blamed the unions initially, the left (and logical right) countered saying management was using pay cuts as a way to increase their salaries, the illogical right had nothing after that.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:11 pm

Well, it's not very illogical for me. If my job wanted to cut me 5%, I wouldn't walk out. Maybe I would start looking around or something, but when I worked at a union job, we were taking cuts every year. Cuts in pay, cuts in benefits, giving up raises. the main reason it wasn't a big deal to me was because I was earning a damn good wage, and I had a super hot girlfriend that I was trying to marry and she was very expensive...
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby GreecePwns on Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:59 pm

If you're being told to take pay cuts knowing the cuts will be put to good use, like paying the bills and keeping the shop open or something - that's one thing.

If you're being told to take pay cuts knowing the cuts will be put toward increasing the salary of an incompetent management (it's a fact, the company was run horribly and the previous pay cuts were went straight to the pockets of management) - then you don't.

Conservatives believe it's so easy for the unemployed to work harder and they'll eventually find a job, don't they? Why wouldn't they accept the belief by the union workers that they can do better with their limited time, like a more fulfilling job with management that isn't forcing workers to take pay cuts specifically so they can line their own pockets and contribute nothing to turning the company around?

One could make an argument that an investigation should be made proving whether or not management was doing this intentionally knowing Hostess was a sinking sink ship and taking whatever money they could before it completely went under.

Of course, this conversation wouldn't be happening if the workers were the management.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby AAFitz on Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:31 pm

Phatscotty wrote:seems to be that we are placing the blame based on politics. The left blames the management/ownership, the right blames the union employees.

Everything is political starting now!


Im not blaming it on politics. Im blaming people like you for making everything political. :roll:

I haven't blamed the demise on anyone. I know its probably a combination of many factors, and that this entire discussion was started with an absolutely absurd premise and title, as many nightstrikes are.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:33 pm

GreecePwns wrote:If you're being told to take pay cuts knowing the cuts will be put to good use, like paying the bills and keeping the shop open or something - that's one thing.

If you're being told to take pay cuts knowing the cuts will be put toward increasing the salary of an incompetent management (it's a fact, the company was run horribly and the previous pay cuts were went straight to the pockets of management) - then you don't.


Is that what the employees as hostess were told? Forgive me if I missed it earlier.

GreecePwns wrote:Conservatives believe it's so easy for the unemployed to work harder and they'll eventually find a job, don't they? Why wouldn't they accept the belief by the union workers that they can do better with their limited time, like a more fulfilling job with management that isn't forcing workers to take pay cuts specifically so they can line their own pockets and contribute nothing to turning the company around?


I'm not sure if that is a Conservative belief, but I believe that, yes. An able bodied person, in the current environment, absolutely can find "a" job. I think the main hang up, in my experience, is that many people can't find the job they want. I'm not sure anybody thinks it's easy. I don't agree with that part. Getting up in the morning to go to work is not "easy" either, so......
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:38 pm

AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:seems to be that we are placing the blame based on politics. The left blames the management/ownership, the right blames the union employees.

Everything is political starting now!


Im not blaming it on politics. Im blaming people like you for making everything political. :roll:

I haven't blamed the demise on anyone. I know its probably a combination of many factors, and that this entire discussion was started with an absolutely absurd premise and title, as many nightstrikes are.


Well, in all honesty, the union employees could have taken one for the team, right?
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby warmonger1981 on Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:40 pm

i heard Hostess got some bail out money from the government a few years back and then the upper management gave themselves up to an 80% pay raise or bonus. has anyone heard this? i heard it from a progressive tv show by Thom Hartman a few months ago..
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:42 pm

warmonger1981 wrote:i heard Hostess got some bail out money from the government a few years back and then the upper management gave themselves up to an 80% pay raise or bonus. has anyone heard this? i heard it from a progressive tv show by Thom Hartman a few months ago..


If true, obviously that's total bullshit and unacceptable....but.....Isn't that what happened with all the bailout money with the other companies as well?

The corruption government intervention breeds is just one small reason why I have been against all government "bailouts" from day 1
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby GreecePwns on Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:47 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Is that what the employees as hostess were told? Forgive me if I missed it earlier.

Of course they weren't told that outright. But that's exactly what has happened and what would have happened, as shown directly above.
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Re: Unions Shut Down Hostess

Postby patches70 on Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:55 pm

GreecePwns wrote:
Of course, this conversation wouldn't be happening if the workers were the management.


What makes you think that?

An unprofitable business is unprofitable. You ignore all the other factors. By God, with the way people carry on about how fat Americans are then it's a good thing Hostess has gone the way of the dinosaur. Make up your minds people, Jesus.

Everybody is looking at it through their own lens of world view and it's ridiculous. Companies go bust all the time for a whole host of reasons, never for a single reason other than the product they produce becomes obsolete. The twinkie isn't obsolete, it's unhealthy.
Someone like a Michelle Obama, if she could, would have such things banned outright if she were able, and where does that leave the people who produce such things? On the street, of course.

And there is nothing wrong with private sector unions. A company has them, then fine, it's not like public sector unions.

If you look at the private sector union membership, you'll see that it spiked there just before and just after WWII and then has been in a steady decline ever since and is today at the lowest membership levels ever.
Those who think Unions are the shizznit will try to convince everyone that it's some evil plot to destroy the working class. This is untrue.

If you sit down and assign an arbitrary rate for pay and benefits, arbitrary rules on how the business must operate, then you hamstring yourself into being unable to change and adapt quickly to changing market conditions.
This is what has happened to Hostess.

For a company to stay in business, unionized or otherwise, that company must stay efficient, productive and above all, profitable.
The shareholders must be paid. The contracts must be honored, that includes the contracts with workers and management. The debts and expenses must be paid. And after all that then the company still has to be able to compete in the market place against rivals.
Hostess has been unable to do that.

The reason the private union membership has dropped to all time lows is because it adds expense and hurts efficiency. Those companies that were once unionized go bankrupt and have to close their doors before the companies that have more flexibility to change and adapt quicker. The bad processes are driven out, those processes that work survive.

If you think that unions are the only way to keep workers getting livable wages, then you are ignoring that earning livable wages is not possible just because you make a rule saying they must be paid. If what is being produced cannot earn enough money to pay those wages (on top of all the other things that the worker's never have to worry about*), then the business will not be in business for very long.

I'm not saying private unions are bad, it is what it is. I am saying that the unionized process is slower to adapt to the changing market conditions and such a thing is fatal to companies. This ultimately leads to what is happening to Hostess today.

But the sycophants and people with agendas will do everything they can to deflect and blame others for what is simply just a natural consequence.
It's nobody's fault. It just is. Hostess went belly up. Big Fucking Deal. Fat bastards will still get twinkies or their equivalent, the former Hostess employees (including management, who also are losing their jobs) will either find new jobs and be better for it in the long run with a better company or they'll mire in anger and angst. Either way, it's up to the individual to figure their own way through hard times.

Cause hard times always come and no union, nor company (no matter how well run), no government, no preacher, no priest, no doctor or anyone else can change that.


*You know, the initial capital required to even start the business, the financing, the expenses like power and material, complying with regulation, obtaining the permits and licenses, and all the other stuff that has to be taken care of that the worker is never responsible for.
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