Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby oVo on Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:45 am

No, it's simply that Christians were the center of this conversation.

There are no shortage of religions that if practiced as taught
would also right this ship and make this World a better place
for all it's inhabitants.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby betiko on Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:09 am

oVo wrote:No, it's simply that Christians were the center of this conversation.

There are no shortage of religions that if practiced as taught
would also right this ship and make this World a better place
for all it's inhabitants.



humm no. religions are the ones that have made this world so fucked up since milleniums. Smart and decent people make a better world not religious ones (although you can be religious smart and decent, religious wouldn't be your prime quality). Look at this video... full grown men trying to pull the blanket their way to justify whatever actions and interests they have/do thanks to their imaginary friend, god. This gives them rights to feel superior to others, be in possession of irrefutable truth, because of the way they interpretate an old book. Do you really think only religion can teach you values?

Could americans vote for a godless president?
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:05 am

CreepersWiener wrote:Christians used a lot of fossil fuels during the Dark Ages for boiling scientists and atheists:

Image


I take umbrage with this chart.

The Greek advancements should be much higher... certainly better than the Romans.

To answer pimpdave's question, yes, not using fossil fuels is an insult to God. God put these fossils on earth for us to use and consume. It would be insulting for us not to use and consume them as quickly as possible. The Bible specifically states "Verily, Hosiah and Bartholemew shalt thou usest the earth and what lies therein to powerith thoust all terrain vehicles and Escalades."
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby jonesthecurl on Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:07 am

I think we have to make sure there's no resources left at all when jesus comes back and takes the "Nice" list off to Heaven. Otherwise it's wasted.
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:09 am

jonesthecurl wrote:I think we have to make sure there's no resources left at all when jesus comes back and takes the "Nice" list off to Heaven. Otherwise it's wasted.


We at least have to use it all up before May.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby jonesthecurl on Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:38 am

You work on the fossil fuels. I'll use up all the beer.
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:52 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
CreepersWiener wrote:Christians used a lot of fossil fuels during the Dark Ages for boiling scientists and atheists:

Image


I take umbrage with this chart.



I think it's also interesting that while the chart shows no scientific advances during the "Christian Era" the caption makes the false assumption that is was Christianity itself that was to blame for the decrease in scientific advancement when there is not necessarily causation. It also may be worth noting that the Romans, for all their wisdom, used lead in many of their households that ended up being of great detriment to their health. Today we use a number of harmful materials in building materials and household items produced by "science". I wonder how long till history repeats itself?
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:58 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
CreepersWiener wrote:Christians used a lot of fossil fuels during the Dark Ages for boiling scientists and atheists:

Image


I take umbrage with this chart.



I think it's also interesting that while the chart shows no scientific advances during the "Christian Era" the caption makes the false assumption that is was Christianity itself that was to blame for the decrease in scientific advancement when there is not necessarily causation. It also may be worth noting that the Romans, for all their wisdom, used lead in many of their households that ended up being of great detriment to their health. Today we use a number of harmful materials in building materials and household items produced by "science". I wonder how long till history repeats itself?


To be serious, the argument that Christianity either held back or did not advance science is pretty dumb.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:12 pm

thegreekdog wrote:To be serious, the argument that Christianity either held back or did not advance science is pretty dumb.


Galileo didn't think so.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:19 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:To be serious, the argument that Christianity either held back or did not advance science is pretty dumb.


Galileo didn't think so.


No, he died. The Greeks figured it out way before Galileo anyway.

And unfortunately, his scientific ideas never came to fruition like immediately after he had them. His ideas died with him and it took us nearly 300 years to figure out that the earth revolved around the sun. Just think, if the Catholic Church hadn't killed him for publishing his theories, we would have known before 1957 that the Earth revolved around the sun. Think of all the scientific advancement lost! Oh the horror![/sarcasm]

EDIT - I'm really upset with myself. I made a deal never to respond seriously to pimpdave's threads. He's won again! Curses!
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:30 pm

thegreekdog wrote:No, he died. The Greeks figured it out way before Galileo anyway.


I don't give them particular credit for the heliocentric model. There was no way to accurately test the hypothesis one way or the other, and inevitably someone was going to come along and challenge the accepted view. Galileo was influential not for his scientific ideas; Copernicus and Kepler are the ones really responsible for kicking off the heliocentric hypothesis in the modern era. Galileo was influential because he was the first that built a tool (i.e. the telescope) to actually test the hypothesis. It is quite honestly no exaggeration to describe Galileo as the father of modern science; his life demarcates the border between two eras; one when philosophers came up with scientific ideas from the armchair, and another when scientists actually rigorously tested their theories. Not everyone gets to claim they destroyed the father of modern science.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:32 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:No, he died. The Greeks figured it out way before Galileo anyway.


I don't give them particular credit for the heliocentric model. There was no way to accurately test the hypothesis one way or the other, and inevitably someone was going to come along and challenge the accepted view. Galileo was influential not for his scientific ideas; Copernicus and Kepler are the ones really responsible for kicking off the heliocentric hypothesis in the modern era. Galileo was influential because he was the first that built a tool (i.e. the telescope) to actually test the hypothesis. It is quite honestly no exaggeration to describe Galileo as the father of modern science; his life demarcates the border between two eras; one when philosophers came up with scientific ideas from the armchair, and another when scientists actually rigorously tested their theories. Not everyone gets to claim they destroyed the father of modern science.


That's great, but how did the church hold back science again?
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:35 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:No, he died. The Greeks figured it out way before Galileo anyway.


I don't give them particular credit for the heliocentric model. There was no way to accurately test the hypothesis one way or the other, and inevitably someone was going to come along and challenge the accepted view. Galileo was influential not for his scientific ideas; Copernicus and Kepler are the ones really responsible for kicking off the heliocentric hypothesis in the modern era. Galileo was influential because he was the first that built a tool (i.e. the telescope) to actually test the hypothesis. It is quite honestly no exaggeration to describe Galileo as the father of modern science; his life demarcates the border between two eras; one when philosophers came up with scientific ideas from the armchair, and another when scientists actually rigorously tested their theories. Not everyone gets to claim they destroyed the father of modern science.


That's great, but how did the church hold back science again?


The church deliberately prevented his ideas from being heard in a mainstream manner, and made him publicly denounce his ideas, thereby being the ones responsible for his ideas not gaining acceptance.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:57 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:No, he died. The Greeks figured it out way before Galileo anyway.


I don't give them particular credit for the heliocentric model. There was no way to accurately test the hypothesis one way or the other, and inevitably someone was going to come along and challenge the accepted view. Galileo was influential not for his scientific ideas; Copernicus and Kepler are the ones really responsible for kicking off the heliocentric hypothesis in the modern era. Galileo was influential because he was the first that built a tool (i.e. the telescope) to actually test the hypothesis. It is quite honestly no exaggeration to describe Galileo as the father of modern science; his life demarcates the border between two eras; one when philosophers came up with scientific ideas from the armchair, and another when scientists actually rigorously tested their theories. Not everyone gets to claim they destroyed the father of modern science.


That's great, but how did the church hold back science again?


The church deliberately prevented his ideas from being heard in a mainstream manner, and made him publicly denounce his ideas, thereby being the ones responsible for his ideas not gaining acceptance.


Which did what exactly? How was scientific progress held back? Are we talking computers in 1935 instead of 1940? Are we talking manned space exploration in 1850? Are we talking "everyone gets their free telescopes from the King of Spain?"
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:06 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Which did what exactly? How was scientific progress held back? Are we talking computers in 1935 instead of 1940? Are we talking manned space exploration in 1850? Are we talking "everyone gets their free telescopes from the King of Spain?"


It's hard to quantify the impact of this action on one (great) man. But that's not the point. The church systematically repressed attempts to further science that conflicted with their doctrines. Galileo is just the best-known example, but not the only one. It's also hard to quantify what that did, which is why the chart is absurd. But I do not doubt that it was responsible for setting scientific progress back.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby tzor on Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:44 pm

thegreekdog wrote:I take umbrage with this chart.

The Greek advancements should be much higher... certainly better than the Romans.


I take umbrage with this chart as well, for the exact opposite reason. The chart measures "scientific advancements."

The Greek fail at science; absolutely fail! Their only real advancements were in those sciences that work on pure theory, specifically math and geometry. Everything else is fail because in the Greek mindset, observation and expermentation (the cornerstone of the later Scientific Method) was "beneath" them.

The Romans didn't do science either; but there were damn good engineers.

In fact, you don't find real scientific methods until the Christian monestaries started writing down observations over time and started to draw conclusions from them.

There are a whole other problems with the chart that I am not going to go into. The dark ages are not as dark as people generally make them out to be.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby tzor on Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:56 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:It's hard to quantify the impact of this action on one (great) man. But that's not the point. The church systematically repressed attempts to further science that conflicted with their doctrines. Galileo is just the best-known example, but not the only one. It's also hard to quantify what that did, which is why the chart is absurd. But I do not doubt that it was responsible for setting scientific progress back.


Let's look at Galileo. Let's get one thing down right off the bat; he had more problems with Italians than with the Church. You don't tell Italians that the Moon is ugly. They are not going to like you for that.

Second. Galileo was a big KING OF FAIL. Even the leading scientists of his day knew that his tidal theory arguments were crap. Those theories are the basis of this choice of the sun centered over the earth centered model.

Third. The models were crap. Ever play with an spirograph? Circles within circles. There is a modern name for this, a Fourrier transformation. Using this you could make square orbits, triangular orbits or any type of orbits. Both models were forced to use circles within circles. The complexity of the crystal spheres of both models were enough to make a layman vomit (and most clergy were scientific laymen; the real church scientists were in the monestaries).

Fourth. Galileo isn't a full disciple of the scientific method; he constantly took scientific ideas and pushed them into theology. Given that his ideas were already overly complex, this wasn't the best approach.

Fifth. Galileo had the personality of Al Gore, only without the millions to back it up.

And remember, the Catholic Church placed him under house arrest. Martin Luther wanted him burned at the stake.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:30 pm

tzor wrote:Second. Galileo was a big KING OF FAIL. Even the leading scientists of his day knew that his tidal theory arguments were crap. Those theories are the basis of this choice of the sun centered over the earth centered model.


I specifically pointed out that Galileo is not remembered for his individual scientific ideas. I think highly of Galileo for his desire to actually test the leading hypotheses of his day using real scientific instruments. That is what makes him the father of modern science. It is meaningless to criticize him for getting the actual scientific theories wrong; most ideas back then were convoluted and simply wrong.

Fifth. Galileo had the personality of Al Gore, only without the millions to back it up.


So did Socrates, but he's still pretty famous.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby jonesthecurl on Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:30 am

OK, I'm working on using up all the beer. Are the rest of you buringn up that coal before the boss gets back?
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:10 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Which did what exactly? How was scientific progress held back? Are we talking computers in 1935 instead of 1940? Are we talking manned space exploration in 1850? Are we talking "everyone gets their free telescopes from the King of Spain?"


It's hard to quantify the impact of this action on one (great) man. But that's not the point. The church systematically repressed attempts to further science that conflicted with their doctrines. Galileo is just the best-known example, but not the only one. It's also hard to quantify what that did, which is why the chart is absurd. But I do not doubt that it was responsible for setting scientific progress back.


You do not doubt?

It's just a lazy argument that atheists make. It has no bearing or grounding in history, it's just assumed that since Christian religions are against teaching certain things now, then the Catholic Church must have been responsible for setting scientific progress back.
Last edited by thegreekdog on Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:10 am

tzor wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:I take umbrage with this chart.

The Greek advancements should be much higher... certainly better than the Romans.


I take umbrage with this chart as well, for the exact opposite reason. The chart measures "scientific advancements."

The Greek fail at science; absolutely fail! Their only real advancements were in those sciences that work on pure theory, specifically math and geometry. Everything else is fail because in the Greek mindset, observation and expermentation (the cornerstone of the later Scientific Method) was "beneath" them.

The Romans didn't do science either; but there were damn good engineers.

In fact, you don't find real scientific methods until the Christian monestaries started writing down observations over time and started to draw conclusions from them.

There are a whole other problems with the chart that I am not going to go into. The dark ages are not as dark as people generally make them out to be.


I was kidding.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:15 am

thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Which did what exactly? How was scientific progress held back? Are we talking computers in 1935 instead of 1940? Are we talking manned space exploration in 1850? Are we talking "everyone gets their free telescopes from the King of Spain?"


It's hard to quantify the impact of this action on one (great) man. But that's not the point. The church systematically repressed attempts to further science that conflicted with their doctrines. Galileo is just the best-known example, but not the only one. It's also hard to quantify what that did, which is why the chart is absurd. But I do not doubt that it was responsible for setting scientific progress back.


You do not doubt?

It's just a lazy argument that atheists make. It has no bearing or grounding in history, it's just assumed that since Christian religions are against teaching certain things now, then the Catholic Church must have been responsible for setting scientific progress back.


No, that's assumed because of concrete historical evidence (e.g. what happened to Galileo and many others). The lazy argument is denying it because there's no easy way to quantify it.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:53 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Which did what exactly? How was scientific progress held back? Are we talking computers in 1935 instead of 1940? Are we talking manned space exploration in 1850? Are we talking "everyone gets their free telescopes from the King of Spain?"


It's hard to quantify the impact of this action on one (great) man. But that's not the point. The church systematically repressed attempts to further science that conflicted with their doctrines. Galileo is just the best-known example, but not the only one. It's also hard to quantify what that did, which is why the chart is absurd. But I do not doubt that it was responsible for setting scientific progress back.


You do not doubt?

It's just a lazy argument that atheists make. It has no bearing or grounding in history, it's just assumed that since Christian religions are against teaching certain things now, then the Catholic Church must have been responsible for setting scientific progress back.


No, that's assumed because of concrete historical evidence (e.g. what happened to Galileo and many others). The lazy argument is denying it because there's no easy way to quantify it.


How many people did the Catholic Church execute or otherwise punishment because of those peoples' scientific thought? Sure, we can't quantify "scientific advancement" or lack thereof, but assuredly we can quantify the number of people killed for scientific thoughts, right? The Catholic Church kept excellent records and was not ashamed, at the time, of its actions.

It is generally accepted that between the rise of Catholicism in Rome and the 19th century, the Catholic Church has participated in the killing of approximately between 50 million and 150 million. These killings include persecutions for heresy and various crusades. The crusades had little to do with persecution because of scientific thought. The heresy persecutions did, but only to a limited extent. Persecutions for heresy had more to do with religious belief (i.e. Christian splinters) than with scientific thought.

Again, this is an argument completely without proof or merit. You could argue, successfully, that the Catholic Church, supposedly an agent of peace, killed a lot of people for horrible reasons and engaged in horrific acts in the name of God, but you cannot argue that it held back science in any meaningful way.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:11 am

thegreekdog wrote:How many people did the Catholic Church execute or otherwise punishment because of those peoples' scientific thought? Sure, we can't quantify "scientific advancement" or lack thereof, but assuredly we can quantify the number of people killed for scientific thoughts, right? The Catholic Church kept excellent records and was not ashamed, at the time, of its actions.


You don't need to kill everyone to hold back scientific progress. The fact that one could be severely punished (or murdered) for exploring views that contradict church doctrines was surely enough to preclude many would-be scientists from pursuing their work. Substantial scientific progress is never made in a time when just being a scientist is enough to get you ostracized from your community. The church was very influential in its time and because it basically told its adherents not to listen to scientists, and they got what they wanted (for a long time).
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:14 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:How many people did the Catholic Church execute or otherwise punishment because of those peoples' scientific thought? Sure, we can't quantify "scientific advancement" or lack thereof, but assuredly we can quantify the number of people killed for scientific thoughts, right? The Catholic Church kept excellent records and was not ashamed, at the time, of its actions.


You don't need to kill everyone to hold back scientific progress. The fact that one could be severely punished (or murdered) for exploring views that contradict church doctrines was surely enough to preclude many would-be scientists from pursuing their work. Substantial scientific progress is never made in a time when just being a scientist is enough to get you ostracized from your community. The church was very influential in its time and because it basically told its adherents not to listen to scientists, and they got what they wanted (for a long time).


Right... you've just illustrated the lazy argument.

Let me ask it another way - was the Catholic Church influential in holding back science in Africa, Asia, or the Americas? Did scientific progress move forward on those continents faster than it did in Europe?
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