Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby tzor on Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:44 pm

thegreekdog wrote:I take umbrage with this chart.

The Greek advancements should be much higher... certainly better than the Romans.


I take umbrage with this chart as well, for the exact opposite reason. The chart measures "scientific advancements."

The Greek fail at science; absolutely fail! Their only real advancements were in those sciences that work on pure theory, specifically math and geometry. Everything else is fail because in the Greek mindset, observation and expermentation (the cornerstone of the later Scientific Method) was "beneath" them.

The Romans didn't do science either; but there were damn good engineers.

In fact, you don't find real scientific methods until the Christian monestaries started writing down observations over time and started to draw conclusions from them.

There are a whole other problems with the chart that I am not going to go into. The dark ages are not as dark as people generally make them out to be.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby tzor on Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:56 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:It's hard to quantify the impact of this action on one (great) man. But that's not the point. The church systematically repressed attempts to further science that conflicted with their doctrines. Galileo is just the best-known example, but not the only one. It's also hard to quantify what that did, which is why the chart is absurd. But I do not doubt that it was responsible for setting scientific progress back.


Let's look at Galileo. Let's get one thing down right off the bat; he had more problems with Italians than with the Church. You don't tell Italians that the Moon is ugly. They are not going to like you for that.

Second. Galileo was a big KING OF FAIL. Even the leading scientists of his day knew that his tidal theory arguments were crap. Those theories are the basis of this choice of the sun centered over the earth centered model.

Third. The models were crap. Ever play with an spirograph? Circles within circles. There is a modern name for this, a Fourrier transformation. Using this you could make square orbits, triangular orbits or any type of orbits. Both models were forced to use circles within circles. The complexity of the crystal spheres of both models were enough to make a layman vomit (and most clergy were scientific laymen; the real church scientists were in the monestaries).

Fourth. Galileo isn't a full disciple of the scientific method; he constantly took scientific ideas and pushed them into theology. Given that his ideas were already overly complex, this wasn't the best approach.

Fifth. Galileo had the personality of Al Gore, only without the millions to back it up.

And remember, the Catholic Church placed him under house arrest. Martin Luther wanted him burned at the stake.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:30 pm

tzor wrote:Second. Galileo was a big KING OF FAIL. Even the leading scientists of his day knew that his tidal theory arguments were crap. Those theories are the basis of this choice of the sun centered over the earth centered model.


I specifically pointed out that Galileo is not remembered for his individual scientific ideas. I think highly of Galileo for his desire to actually test the leading hypotheses of his day using real scientific instruments. That is what makes him the father of modern science. It is meaningless to criticize him for getting the actual scientific theories wrong; most ideas back then were convoluted and simply wrong.

Fifth. Galileo had the personality of Al Gore, only without the millions to back it up.


So did Socrates, but he's still pretty famous.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby jonesthecurl on Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:30 am

OK, I'm working on using up all the beer. Are the rest of you buringn up that coal before the boss gets back?
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:10 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Which did what exactly? How was scientific progress held back? Are we talking computers in 1935 instead of 1940? Are we talking manned space exploration in 1850? Are we talking "everyone gets their free telescopes from the King of Spain?"


It's hard to quantify the impact of this action on one (great) man. But that's not the point. The church systematically repressed attempts to further science that conflicted with their doctrines. Galileo is just the best-known example, but not the only one. It's also hard to quantify what that did, which is why the chart is absurd. But I do not doubt that it was responsible for setting scientific progress back.


You do not doubt?

It's just a lazy argument that atheists make. It has no bearing or grounding in history, it's just assumed that since Christian religions are against teaching certain things now, then the Catholic Church must have been responsible for setting scientific progress back.
Last edited by thegreekdog on Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:10 am

tzor wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:I take umbrage with this chart.

The Greek advancements should be much higher... certainly better than the Romans.


I take umbrage with this chart as well, for the exact opposite reason. The chart measures "scientific advancements."

The Greek fail at science; absolutely fail! Their only real advancements were in those sciences that work on pure theory, specifically math and geometry. Everything else is fail because in the Greek mindset, observation and expermentation (the cornerstone of the later Scientific Method) was "beneath" them.

The Romans didn't do science either; but there were damn good engineers.

In fact, you don't find real scientific methods until the Christian monestaries started writing down observations over time and started to draw conclusions from them.

There are a whole other problems with the chart that I am not going to go into. The dark ages are not as dark as people generally make them out to be.


I was kidding.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:15 am

thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Which did what exactly? How was scientific progress held back? Are we talking computers in 1935 instead of 1940? Are we talking manned space exploration in 1850? Are we talking "everyone gets their free telescopes from the King of Spain?"


It's hard to quantify the impact of this action on one (great) man. But that's not the point. The church systematically repressed attempts to further science that conflicted with their doctrines. Galileo is just the best-known example, but not the only one. It's also hard to quantify what that did, which is why the chart is absurd. But I do not doubt that it was responsible for setting scientific progress back.


You do not doubt?

It's just a lazy argument that atheists make. It has no bearing or grounding in history, it's just assumed that since Christian religions are against teaching certain things now, then the Catholic Church must have been responsible for setting scientific progress back.


No, that's assumed because of concrete historical evidence (e.g. what happened to Galileo and many others). The lazy argument is denying it because there's no easy way to quantify it.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:53 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Which did what exactly? How was scientific progress held back? Are we talking computers in 1935 instead of 1940? Are we talking manned space exploration in 1850? Are we talking "everyone gets their free telescopes from the King of Spain?"


It's hard to quantify the impact of this action on one (great) man. But that's not the point. The church systematically repressed attempts to further science that conflicted with their doctrines. Galileo is just the best-known example, but not the only one. It's also hard to quantify what that did, which is why the chart is absurd. But I do not doubt that it was responsible for setting scientific progress back.


You do not doubt?

It's just a lazy argument that atheists make. It has no bearing or grounding in history, it's just assumed that since Christian religions are against teaching certain things now, then the Catholic Church must have been responsible for setting scientific progress back.


No, that's assumed because of concrete historical evidence (e.g. what happened to Galileo and many others). The lazy argument is denying it because there's no easy way to quantify it.


How many people did the Catholic Church execute or otherwise punishment because of those peoples' scientific thought? Sure, we can't quantify "scientific advancement" or lack thereof, but assuredly we can quantify the number of people killed for scientific thoughts, right? The Catholic Church kept excellent records and was not ashamed, at the time, of its actions.

It is generally accepted that between the rise of Catholicism in Rome and the 19th century, the Catholic Church has participated in the killing of approximately between 50 million and 150 million. These killings include persecutions for heresy and various crusades. The crusades had little to do with persecution because of scientific thought. The heresy persecutions did, but only to a limited extent. Persecutions for heresy had more to do with religious belief (i.e. Christian splinters) than with scientific thought.

Again, this is an argument completely without proof or merit. You could argue, successfully, that the Catholic Church, supposedly an agent of peace, killed a lot of people for horrible reasons and engaged in horrific acts in the name of God, but you cannot argue that it held back science in any meaningful way.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:11 am

thegreekdog wrote:How many people did the Catholic Church execute or otherwise punishment because of those peoples' scientific thought? Sure, we can't quantify "scientific advancement" or lack thereof, but assuredly we can quantify the number of people killed for scientific thoughts, right? The Catholic Church kept excellent records and was not ashamed, at the time, of its actions.


You don't need to kill everyone to hold back scientific progress. The fact that one could be severely punished (or murdered) for exploring views that contradict church doctrines was surely enough to preclude many would-be scientists from pursuing their work. Substantial scientific progress is never made in a time when just being a scientist is enough to get you ostracized from your community. The church was very influential in its time and because it basically told its adherents not to listen to scientists, and they got what they wanted (for a long time).
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:14 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:How many people did the Catholic Church execute or otherwise punishment because of those peoples' scientific thought? Sure, we can't quantify "scientific advancement" or lack thereof, but assuredly we can quantify the number of people killed for scientific thoughts, right? The Catholic Church kept excellent records and was not ashamed, at the time, of its actions.


You don't need to kill everyone to hold back scientific progress. The fact that one could be severely punished (or murdered) for exploring views that contradict church doctrines was surely enough to preclude many would-be scientists from pursuing their work. Substantial scientific progress is never made in a time when just being a scientist is enough to get you ostracized from your community. The church was very influential in its time and because it basically told its adherents not to listen to scientists, and they got what they wanted (for a long time).


Right... you've just illustrated the lazy argument.

Let me ask it another way - was the Catholic Church influential in holding back science in Africa, Asia, or the Americas? Did scientific progress move forward on those continents faster than it did in Europe?
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:41 am

thegreekdog wrote:Let me ask it another way - was the Catholic Church influential in holding back science in Africa, Asia, or the Americas?

Did scientific progress move forward on those continents faster than it did in Europe?


By the time of the Catholic Church's dominance, there was plenty of cross-pollination of ideas. Therefore, holding back science in any one area (e.g. Europe) directly holds back the scientific advancement of the entire world. Think about it if you asked this question today. If the church went and murdered or subjugated all American scientists, would you still claim that scientific progress goes on at the same rate? Of course not. The more scientists there are working on things, the more gets done, because individual areas can specialize, and just because of sheer brute force on any particular problem. The same was true a few centuries ago; influential technology spread relatively rapidly across cultures.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby Dukasaur on Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:00 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Which did what exactly? How was scientific progress held back? Are we talking computers in 1935 instead of 1940? Are we talking manned space exploration in 1850? Are we talking "everyone gets their free telescopes from the King of Spain?"


It's hard to quantify the impact of this action on one (great) man. But that's not the point. The church systematically repressed attempts to further science that conflicted with their doctrines. Galileo is just the best-known example, but not the only one. It's also hard to quantify what that did, which is why the chart is absurd. But I do not doubt that it was responsible for setting scientific progress back.


You do not doubt?

It's just a lazy argument that atheists make. It has no bearing or grounding in history, it's just assumed that since Christian religions are against teaching certain things now, then the Catholic Church must have been responsible for setting scientific progress back.


No, that's assumed because of concrete historical evidence (e.g. what happened to Galileo and many others). The lazy argument is denying it because there's no easy way to quantify it.

Okay, first of all, what happened to Galileo? Was he burned at the stake? Was he hanged? Was he cast into a deep, dark dungeon? None of the above. He was put under house arrest in his very comfortable middle class home. After the initial publicity died down, he was even allowed to entertain guests. The stricter conservatives in the church had wanted him hanged, but the liberals wanted him left alone, so the house arrest was worked out as a reasonable compromise.

If you look at it honestly, you can see that the compromise wasn't 50/50; the terms of his arrest were closer to being free than to being dead, so the liberals were winning. Galileo even published a new book while under house arrest and it wasn't banned. Furthermore, there was no persecution of Tycho Brahe or Johannes Kepler or numerous other heliocentric astronomers working at approximately the same time. Far from being a "typical" case of religious persecution, the trial of Galileo can be seen as an anomaly. Galileo had the misfortune of working in Italy during the reign of a conservative Pope and he threw fuel on the fire by personally insulting the Pope. People have been killed for lesser insults to less important power figures, and yet even after all that Galileo got a moderate punishment. Hardly proof of a draconian persecution of science.

You say "Galileo and many others" but in fact there were no "many others" -- Galileo was an anomalous case. Science was flourishing at the time, much of the work being done at Church-run universities and Academies. Johannes Kepler was working out the planetary orbits at the court of the Holy Roman Emperor Rudolph, defender of the faith.

The burning of Giordano Bruno is sometimes cited as an additional example, but if you look closely you find that Bruno was martyred for simple old-fashioned theocratic heresies. His scientific work was barely mentioned at his trial. (I'm not saying the martyrdom of Bruno was a good thing, but it's certainly not an example of the persecution of scientists.)

After that the trail for the "many others" grows cold, because in fact the Church for the most part was an active patron of the arts and sciences. The father of engineering, Agricola, was a faithful Catholic; what persecutions he suffered were under Protestant princes. The father of genetics, Gregor Mendel, was an Augustinian monk. Roger Bacon, generally called the father of the scientific method, was a Franciscan monk, and so was Occam (of Occam's Razor fame.) The list goes on and on.

I leave you with the following quote from David Lindberg:
White and other writers on science and religion have suggested that science would have progressed more rapidly in the early centuries of the Christian era if Christianity had not inhibited its growth. Counterfactual speculations about what might have occurred had circumstances been otherwise are of questionable value. But it is worth pointing out that the study of nature held a very precarious position in ancient society; with the exception of medicine and a little astronomy, it served no practical function and generally failed to win recognition as a socially useful activity. As a result, it received little patronage from either pagan's or Christians, but depended for its existence on independent means and individual initiative. When the economic and political fortunes of the Roman Empire declined in late antiquity, people of wealth decreased in number, and the elites directed their initiative elsewhere. Moreover, changing educational and philosophical values were diverting attention from the world of nature. Inevitably the pursuit of science suffered.

Christianity (..) contained more or less the same spectrum of attitudes toward natural science as did paganism. If there were differences, Christianity was perhaps a little less other- worldly than the major competing ideologies (Gnosticism, Neoplatonism, and the mystery religions) and afforded slightly greater incentive for the study of nature. The church fathers used Greek scientific knowledge in their defense of the faith against heresy and in the elucidation of scripture, thereby preserving and transmitting it during the social and political turmoil of the first millennium of the Christian era. Science was thus the handmaiden of theology-a far cry from its modern status, characterized by autonomy and intellectual hegemony, but also far from the victim of Christian intolerance that White portrayed. Science was not the enemy, but a valued (if not entirely reliable) servant.12

In addition to serving theology, Greek scientific knowledge occupied a prominent place in Christian world views, from the time of Basil of Caesarea and Augustine through the end of the Middle Ages and beyond. The notion that any serious Christian thinker would even have attempted to formulate a world view from the Bible alone is ludicrous. For example, contrary to popular belief (which White's Warfare has helped to shape), the church did not insist on a flat earth; there was scarcely a Christian scholar of the Middle Ages who did not acknowledge its sphericity and even know its approximate circumference. By the beginning of the thirteenth century, virtually all of the works of Aristotle had become available in Europe, and from this point onward we see a persistent effort to integrate Aristotelian natural philosophy, or science, with Christian theology. In the end, Christianity took its basic categories of thought, its physical principles, and much of its metaphysics and cosmology from Aristotle. By means of its power to organize and interpret human experience, Aristotelianism conquered Christendom.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:24 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Let me ask it another way - was the Catholic Church influential in holding back science in Africa, Asia, or the Americas?

Did scientific progress move forward on those continents faster than it did in Europe?


By the time of the Catholic Church's dominance, there was plenty of cross-pollination of ideas. Therefore, holding back science in any one area (e.g. Europe) directly holds back the scientific advancement of the entire world. Think about it if you asked this question today. If the church went and murdered or subjugated all American scientists, would you still claim that scientific progress goes on at the same rate? Of course not. The more scientists there are working on things, the more gets done, because individual areas can specialize, and just because of sheer brute force on any particular problem. The same was true a few centuries ago; influential technology spread relatively rapidly across cultures.


Maybe there was cross-polination (see below), but that certainly does not mean there wasn't sole-pollination. Were there no great scientists in Asia or Africa or the Americas?

If the church murdered or subjugated every American scientist, scientific progress would not go at the same rate, but it would still go. And it's completely different today. A scientist in New York can share her research with a scientist in Beijing by sending an email, making a phone call, or sending a letter. In the 9th through 19th centuries, the only way to share research was to take a harrowing trip overland or overseas and meet face-to-face. How many times did that happen? European scientists were more likely to talk amongst themselves than to talk to Incan scientists or Chinese scientists.

The Church didn't kill all European scientists. It didn't subjugate all European scientists. It had a hand in the silencing of a handful, at most, scientists who had additional marks against them (for purposes of the Church). With the possible exception of Galileo, every other of the five or so "scientists" that were "persecuted" by the Catholic Church were "persecuted" for non-scientific reasons.

If it's not clear to you now that the "The Church held back science" argument is lazy and ignorant (including in light of the Dukasaur's post), there are reams of documents available on the interwebs discussing the Church's persecution of, for example, Protestants or the Spanish Inquisition, or the Crusades, or any number of other incidences where the Catholic Church had a direct or indirect hand in killing people. There is a distinct scarcity of documents referencing the persecution of scientists, and those that are available deal with either a near 200 year old book or Galileo.

So, the question is this: If there exists evidence of X, but not evidence of Y, why would we believe that Y occurred?
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby Neoteny on Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:55 pm

There is a time period which corresponds nearly exactly with the rise and reign of the Catholic Church during which scientific progress is usually perceived as stunted. This time period also corresponds neatly with the collapse of a prominent legislative and military power. From this collapse we witnessed the growth of economic and civil systems that divided European civilization into groups of mud farmers, professional murderers, ghost talkers and the fat fucks that are always at the top of any such constructs. The Catholic Church, like most businesses, thrived in excess due to this arrangement, and, as such, worked to maintain the politics and economics that sustained the status quo. Science does not inherently harm these forces, and thus was not systematically targeted. What prevented the next phase of science was the limited educational opportunities possible under this system. While Catholic educations were of reasonable quality at the time, quality scientific progress thrives on broad, inclusive academic approaches. I think there weren't enough scientists. Science wasn't profitable. The Church, as well as states and their heads, bear significant responsibility for this. The social, economic, and political climate was not geared toward fostering science. I don't think this is intentional by any means, but good intentions lead to bad cliches.

Really, Middle Age science is yet another argument for Keynesian-based economics.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:00 pm

Neoteny wrote:There is a time period which corresponds nearly exactly with the rise and reign of the Catholic Church during which scientific progress is usually perceived as stunted. This time period also corresponds neatly with the collapse of a prominent legislative and military power. From this collapse we witnessed the growth of economic and civil systems that divided European civilization into groups of mud farmers, professional murderers, ghost talkers and the fat fucks that are always at the top of any such constructs. The Catholic Church, like most businesses, thrived in excess due to this arrangement, and, as such, worked to maintain the politics and economics that sustained the status quo. Science does not inherently harm these forces, and thus was not systematically targeted. What prevented the next phase of science was the limited educational opportunities possible under this system. While Catholic educations were of reasonable quality at the time, quality scientific progress thrives on broad, inclusive academic approaches. I think there weren't enough scientists. Science wasn't profitable. The Church, as well as states and their heads, bear significant responsibility for this. The social, economic, and political climate was not geared toward fostering science. I don't think this is intentional by any means, but good intentions lead to bad cliches.

Really, Middle Age science is yet another argument for Keynesian-based economics.


Hmmm... rise of Catholicism? Correlation = causation? Coincidence = causation?

Also... one would think, given this period of horribleness in European history, that some great empire collapsed which caused all this horribleness. Guess not, though. Must have been the Catholic Church since it apparently rose to prominence in that time (and not in the time of that particular great empire that didn't cause this dark period of time).

Also also... what the hell is a ghost talker?
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby Neoteny on Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:04 pm

A priest.

I'm sort of agreeing with you, btw, by saying it was the fall of the Roman Empire and the rise of feudalism or whatever you crazy economists are calling it nowadays, and just noting that the Church's complacency/encouragement of the system is a significant, but not necessarily the hugest, factor. Also: Modern Monetary Theory.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:23 pm

Neoteny wrote:A priest.

I'm sort of agreeing with you, btw, by saying it was the fall of the Roman Empire and the rise of feudalism or whatever you crazy economists are calling it nowadays, and just noting that the Church's complacency/encouragement of the system is a significant, but not necessarily the hugest, factor. Also: Modern Monetary Theory.


Sorry... I get angry easily these days. I don't have BBS to fall back on. In fact, when he does get back, I think I may start internet fights with him.

I'm not trying to paint the Catholic Church as a paragon of virtue during this period... because it wasn't. But there is no evidence to suggest scientific advancement would have progressed faster if there was no Catholic Church.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby Neoteny on Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:34 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Neoteny wrote:A priest.

I'm sort of agreeing with you, btw, by saying it was the fall of the Roman Empire and the rise of feudalism or whatever you crazy economists are calling it nowadays, and just noting that the Church's complacency/encouragement of the system is a significant, but not necessarily the hugest, factor. Also: Modern Monetary Theory.


Sorry... I get angry easily these days. I don't have BBS to fall back on. In fact, when he does get back, I think I may start internet fights with him.

I'm not trying to paint the Catholic Church as a paragon of virtue during this period... because it wasn't. But there is no evidence to suggest scientific advancement would have progressed faster if there was no Catholic Church.


I get angry too. That's why I've been away.

Anyhow, that's like saying there is no evidence for god. Everything is evidence. It's just how you use it to support your ideas. Evidence that the Church slowed scientific advancement include whipping up xenophobia for crusades, teaching poverty and submission as virtues, and a somewhat restrictive ethical perspective all contributed in varying amounts to delaying scientific progress. You may not agree with me, but I disagree with any reasons you have for believing in god, and yet those reasons should still be considered evidentiary to some standard. But I'm picking nits. The Catholic Church was not systematically repressing scientists in my opinion, but still contributed to slowed scientific advancement. The Church was actively trying to narrow perspectives at many points, and science flounders in such situations.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:43 pm

Neoteny wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Neoteny wrote:A priest.

I'm sort of agreeing with you, btw, by saying it was the fall of the Roman Empire and the rise of feudalism or whatever you crazy economists are calling it nowadays, and just noting that the Church's complacency/encouragement of the system is a significant, but not necessarily the hugest, factor. Also: Modern Monetary Theory.


Sorry... I get angry easily these days. I don't have BBS to fall back on. In fact, when he does get back, I think I may start internet fights with him.

I'm not trying to paint the Catholic Church as a paragon of virtue during this period... because it wasn't. But there is no evidence to suggest scientific advancement would have progressed faster if there was no Catholic Church.


I get angry too. That's why I've been away.

Anyhow, that's like saying there is no evidence for god. Everything is evidence. It's just how you use it to support your ideas. Evidence that the Church slowed scientific advancement include whipping up xenophobia for crusades, teaching poverty and submission as virtues, and a somewhat restrictive ethical perspective all contributed in varying amounts to delaying scientific progress. You may not agree with me, but I disagree with any reasons you have for believing in god, and yet those reasons should still be considered evidentiary to some standard. But I'm picking nits. The Catholic Church was not systematically repressing scientists in my opinion, but still contributed to slowed scientific advancement. The Church was actively trying to narrow perspectives at many points, and science flounders in such situations.


I can get on board with the idea that the Catholic Church did not independently foster an environment for scientific thought. However, I think the Catholic Church is low on that list (but that's a quibble).
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby jonesthecurl on Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:45 pm

Anyhow, I've made sure that none of the beer in my house will be wasted if jesus comes back tomorrow.
Now I'm working on the wine.
How you guys doing with using up all that oil and coal?
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:19 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:Anyhow, I've made sure that none of the beer in my house will be wasted if jesus comes back tomorrow.
Now I'm working on the wine.
How you guys doing with using up all that oil and coal?


I drank some beer over the weekend. Sorry.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby crispybits on Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:38 pm

I just ate all the pies....
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby Timminz on Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:47 pm

I'm working on the beer thing too.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby Neoteny on Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:48 pm

A brief literature review indicates we as a civilization are on track for total beer consumption pre-rapture.

High fives all around.
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Re: Is Not Using Fossil Fuels an Insult to God?

Postby jonesthecurl on Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:12 pm

hic!
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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