Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby HapSmo19 on Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:26 pm

I've said it before and no one cared and I'll say it again and no-one will care: FDR bankrolled the third reich with his gold confiscation executive order of 1933.
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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby Iliad on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:26 am

DoomYoshi wrote:The more I read about the interwar period, the more lunatic it seems.

It seems the main idea was that every nationality needed its own nation. Except the nationalities are totally made up concepts, not backed by either history or genetics. I have often said I am half German and half Czech, but in reality, those aren't two seperate races. America should apologize for having a hand in this mess. No wonder the Euro is so shaky, the entire premise of the countries in Europe is based on bullshit.
Oh hello, someone's learnt that nationality is fluid and a social construct. Next lesson: so is race.

And what's this mess that you mention? The holocaust? The Euro? How'd did Wilson cause the Holocaust? Isn't the Holocaust itself a clear example of the great significance of national identity? If anything the hawk-like French who wanted punitive measures inserted into the Versailles treaty had a much greater indirect role in the Holocaust. But that's also a secondary responsibility, and obviously most of it lying with the actual Nazis. I know, controversial opinion, but I always I figured the Nazis were responsible for the holocaust.

Not like there's a single reasonable opinion in this thread. Exhibit A:
DoomYoshi wrote:I have always said that everything is invented in America. The sushi I eat, the movies we watch. Even cultural things. For example the kilt wasn't popularized until an American wrote about it. The very concept of national identity and the borders of europe was invented in America.

f*ck Woodrow Wilson. f*ck the Wilson Center. f*ck it all.

What? If you actually want to know about the roots of national identity I recommend Benedict Anderson. Spoiler: they predate America.

Phatscotty wrote:f*ck WOODROW WILSON! YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Woodrow Wilson: Progressive hero.

Progressives should apologize, Teddy Roosevelt should apologize. America as a whole, well, I have to assume that there were even more Americans concerned about the progressive movement than there are now, so I don't think America should apologize. I'm sure there were plenty of Americans protesting Wilson and his extremely racist and progressive policies at the time, just the same as those who now loudly protest Obama. Plus, there were many more at the time who were pro-Liberty, but did not see or refused to believe Woodrow Wilson's Progressivism, or believed his promises, such as "the income tax rate will never exceed 3%! And only the richest of the rich will have to pay it!" That lasted about as long as the Obamacare promises are going to. Around 36 months.

Lies only need to be kept alive until the end of the politicians term. Then they go away, everyone hates them, but they crammed it up our asses nonetheless.

Progressives should apologise! Roosevelt should apologise! America should apologise! No wait, false alarm, America doesn't have to apologise! Everyone else apologise! Americans go to the halls for your Two-Minute Hate! Wilson BAD! Reagan GOOD! Grrrr.

I know Doom didn't fully explain his point that doesn't mean you can vomit up your irrelevant conservative talk show talking points here Scotty.
HapSmo19 wrote:I've said it before and no one cared and I'll say it again and no-one will care: FDR bankrolled the third reich with his gold confiscation executive order of 1933.

I've said it before and no-one cared, but I did not have sexual relations with the lizardpeople. Y'know the ones that did the moon landing. And 9/11.

This is a silly thread.
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Last edited by Iliad on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby Army of GOD on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:33 am

I think we can all agree that the Wizard of Oz is a classic.
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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:45 am

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Is this Yoshi trolling? if yes points for originality.

I was gonna say some stuff but liad's post was glorious and pretty much covered it.
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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:00 pm

Not trolling. I refuse to recognize the US as a legitimate nation state until

a) Woodrow Wilson is struck from the history books, and has his presedency revoked.
b) This one has already been done.
c) The US recognizes the right of states to secede. I want Canada back now.
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Postby 2dimes on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:35 pm

Canada is busy trying to pretend they are not a commonwealth country and they are just like Ameriker, check out our spinning rims. Eh.
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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:05 pm

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Anyone who puts themselves on the $100,000 bill, you know they are a gigantic asshole.
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Not sure who is the bigger asshole when compared to the other Progressive jack-ass that builds monuments to himself.
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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby oVo on Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:01 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:So americans are responsible for everything, but only if you claim everybody was american?
Bit of a tautology ain't it?

Sounds more like scatology, even though the majority of active participants in the European Theatre of WWII were of German ancestry.
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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:57 pm

oVo wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:So americans are responsible for everything, but only if you claim everybody was american?
Bit of a tautology ain't it?

Sounds more like scatology, even though the majority of active participants in the European Theatre of WWII were of German ancestry.

Eisenhower was of German ancestry.

:P
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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby jonesthecurl on Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:16 pm

oVo wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:So americans are responsible for everything, but only if you claim everybody was american?
Bit of a tautology ain't it?

Sounds more like scatology, even though the majority of active participants in the European Theatre of WWII were of German ancestry.



Actually I think the correct term may be "Prattology".
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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:18 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Not trolling. I refuse to recognize the US as a legitimate nation state until

a) Woodrow Wilson is struck from the history books, and has his presedency revoked.
b) This one has already been done.
c) The US recognizes the right of states to secede. I want Canada back now.


What was (b)... I ask, understanding that I may regret asking.
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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby jonesthecurl on Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:02 pm

It was turning everybody into an american.
Or possibly acknowledging the "classic" status of "The Wizard of Oz".
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby MeDeFe on Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:05 am

jonesthecurl wrote:It was turning everybody into an american.
Or possibly acknowledging the "classic" status of "The Wizard of Oz".

A classic certainly, but it was not a good movie.


And people should start wearing outercoats with capes again.
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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:33 am

thegreekdog wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:Not trolling. I refuse to recognize the US as a legitimate nation state until

a) Woodrow Wilson is struck from the history books, and has his presedency revoked.
b) This one has already been done.
c) The US recognizes the right of states to secede. I want Canada back now.


What was (b)... I ask, understanding that I may regret asking.


Apologizing to the Jews for causing the holocaust. There is no other reason for America to take its pro-Zionist stance unless it truly feels guilty. I learned that one from Judge Judy, an American.
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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:47 am

DoomYoshi wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:Not trolling. I refuse to recognize the US as a legitimate nation state until

a) Woodrow Wilson is struck from the history books, and has his presedency revoked.
b) This one has already been done.
c) The US recognizes the right of states to secede. I want Canada back now.


What was (b)... I ask, understanding that I may regret asking.


Apologizing to the Jews for causing the holocaust. There is no other reason for America to take its pro-Zionist stance unless it truly feels guilty. I learned that one from Judge Judy, an American.


Just to make sure I'm clear - you think the US supports Israel because the country is apologizing for causing the Holocaust, and not because there is a significant Jewish lobby in the US?
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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:10 pm

I don't think that those two causes are mutually exclusive.
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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:21 pm

La heim!




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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:46 pm

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http://www.utwatch.org/funfacts/woodrowwilson.html

To sum up Wilson, though, he was a Dixiecrat before the term came into being. He openly targeted and silenced minorities in his government, "repeatedly questioning the loyalty of those he called 'hyphenated Americans'." Wilson also wrote History of the American People, a "two-volume history of the United States, now notorious for its racist view of Reconstruction," which later served in part as a basis for the movie Birth of a Nation. The White House also encouraged a rebirth of the Ku Klux Klan, which "grew to dominate the Democratic Party in many southern states." (Note: Wilson was a Democrat from the South). Wilson also fought integration while president of Princeton University, "the only major northern university that refused to admit blacks", and as president of the United States ordered the re-segregation of the federal government.

During WWI, a war 'he reluctantly led the U.S. into,' he cracked down on the citizenry through the re-introduction of the Alien and Sedition Acts. His anti-democratic tendencies are interesting when one takes into account: "Under Wilson, the United States intervened in Latin America more often than at any other time in our history," and the dictators who were consequently able to come to power -- reverberations that have been felt ever since as social justice movements in Latin America continue to fight for democracy.

One of the biggest changes under Wilson that goes unreported even in the following piece was the privatization of our National Bank. In December 1913, when the Senate privatized it during recess with a vote of 3-0, the name was changed to the Federal Reserve, and Wilson gleefully signed the bill into law just 2 days before Christmas, when most lawmakers were with their families on vacation. Many economic recessions occurred within its first 25 years, including the Great Depression.

Many of the changes ushered in during the Progressive Era, including women's suffrage, happened despite, not because of, Wilson's best efforts. In paying tribute to this man with our statue, we're honoring a man who ignored the citizenry, i.e. "democracy", to promote his own transgressive agenda.

What we did not learn about Woodrow Wilson is even more remarkable. When I ask my college students to tell me what they recall about President Wilson, they respond with enthusiasm. They say that Wilson led our country reluctantly into World War I and after the war led the struggle nationally and internationally to establish the League of Nations. They associate Wilson with progressive causes like women's suffrage. A handful of students recall the Wilson administration's Palmer Raids against left-wing unions. But my students seldom know or speak about two antidemocratic policies that Wilson carried out: his racial segregation of the federal government and his military interventions in foreign countries.

Under Wilson, the United States intervened in Latin America more often than at any other time in our history. We landed troops in Mexico in 1914, Haiti in 1915, the Dominican Republic in 1916, Mexico again in 1916 (and nine more times before the end of Wilson's presidency), Cuba in 1917, and Panama in 1918. Throughout his administration Wilson maintained forces in Nicaragua, using them to determine Nicaragua's president and to force passage of a treaty preferential to the United States.

In 1917 Woodrow Wilson took on a major power when he started sending secret monetary aid to the "White" side of the Russian civil war. In the summer of 1918 he authorized a naval blockade of the Soviet Union and sent expeditionary forces to Murmansk, Archangel, and Vladivostok to help overthrow the Russian Revolution. With the blessing of Britain and France, and in a joint command with Japanese soldiers, American forces penetrated westward from Vladivostok to Lake Baikal, supporting Czech and White Russian forces that had declared an anticommunist government headquartered at Omsk. After briefly maintaining front lines as far west as the Volga, the White Russian forces disintegrated by the end of 1919, and our troops finally left Vladivostok on April 1, 1920.

Few Americans who were not alive at the time know anything about our "unknown war with Russia," to quote the title of Robert Maddox's book on this fiasco. Not one of the twelve American history textbooks in my sample even mentions it. Russian history textbooks, on the other hand, give the episode considerable coverage. According to Maddox: "The immediate effect of the intervention was to prolong a bloody civil war, thereby costing thousands of additional lives and wreaking enormous destruction on an already battered society. And there were longer-range implications. Bolshevik leaders had clear proof ... that the Western powers meant to destroy the Soviet government if given the chance."

This aggression fueled the suspicions that motivated the Soviets during the Cold War, and until its breakup the Soviet Union continued to claim damages for the invasion.

Wilson's invasions of Latin America are better known than his Russian adventure. Textbooks do cover some of them, and it is fascinating to watch textbook authors attempt to justify these episodes. Any accurate portrayal of the invasions could not possibly show Wilson or the United States in a favorable light. With hindsight we know that Wilson's interventions in Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Haiti, and Nicaragua set the stage for the dictators Batista, Trujillo, the Duvaliers, and the Somozas, whose legacies still reverberate. Even in the 1910s, most of the invasions were unpopular in this country and provoked a torrent of criticism abroad. By the mid-1920s, Wilson's successors reversed his policies in Latin America. The authors of history textbooks know this, for a chapter or two after Wilson they laud our "Good Neighbor Policy," the renunciation of force in Latin America by Presidents Coolidge and Hoover, which was extended by Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Textbooks might (but don't) call Wilson's Latin American actions a "Bad Neighbor Policy" by comparison. Instead, faced with unpleasantries, textbooks wriggle to get the hero off the hook, as in this example from The Challenge of Freedom: "President Wilson wanted the United States to build friendships with the countries of Latin America. However, he found this difficult...."Some textbooks blame the invasions on the countries invaded: "Necessity was the mother of armed Caribbean intervention," states The American Pageant. Land of Promise is vague as to who caused the invasions but seems certain they were not Wilson's doing: "He soon discovered that because of forces he could not control, his ideas of morality and idealism had to give way to practical action." Promise goes on to assert Wilson's innocence: "Thus, though he believed it morally undesirable to send Marines into the Caribbean, he saw no way to avoid it." This passage is sheer invention. Unlike his secretary of the navy, who later complained that what Wilson "forced [me] to do in Haiti was a bitter pill for me," no documentary evidence suggests that Wilson suffered any such qualms about dispatching troops to the Caribbean.

All twelve of the textbooks I surveyed mention Wilson's 1914 invasion of Mexico, but they posit that the interventions were not Wilson's fault. "President Wilson was urged to send military forces into Mexico to protect American investments and to restore law and order," according to Triumph of the American Nation, whose authors emphasize that the president at first chose not to intervene. But "as the months passed, even President Wilson began to lose patience." Walter Karp has shown that this version contradicts the facts -- the invasion was Wilson's idea from the start, and it outraged Congress as well as the American people. According to Karp, Wilson's intervention was so outrageous that leaders of both sides of Mexico's ongoing civil war demanded that the U.S. forces leave; the pressure of public opinion in the United States and around the world finally influenced Wilson to recall the troops.

Textbook authors commonly use another device when describing our Mexican adventures: they identify Wilson as ordering our forces to withdraw, but nobody is specified as having ordered them in! Imparting information in a passive voice helps to insulate historical figures from their own unheroic or unethical deeds.

Some books go beyond omitting the actor and leave out the act itself. Half of the twelve textbooks do not even mention Wilson's takeover of Haiti. After U.S. marines invaded the country in 1915, they forced the Haitian legislature to select our preferred candidate as president. When Haiti refused to declare war on Germany after the United States did, we dissolved the Haitian legislature. Then the United States supervised a pseudo-referendum to approve a new Haitian constitution, less democratic than the constitution it replaced; the referendum passed by a hilarious 98,225 to 768. As Piero Gleijesus has noted, "It is not that Wilson failed in his earnest efforts to bring democracy to these little countries. He never tried. He intervened to impose hegemony, not democracy." The United States also attacked Haiti's proud tradition of individual ownership of small tracts of land, which dated back to the Haitian Revolution, in favor of the establishment of large plantations. American troops forced peasants in shackles to work on road construction crews. In 1919 Haitian citizens rose up and resisted U.S. occupation troops in a guerrilla war that cost more than 3,000 lives, most of them Haitian. Students who read Triumph of the American Nation learn this about Wilson's intervention in Haiti: "Neither the treaty nor the continued presence of American troops restored order completely. During the next four or five years, nearly 2,000 Haitians were killed in riots and other outbreaks of violence." This passive construction veils the circumstances about which George Barnett, a U.S. marine general, complained to his commander in Haiti: "Practically indiscriminate killing of natives has gone on for some time." Barnett termed this violent episode "the most startling thing of its kind that has ever taken place in the Marine Corps."

During the first two decades of this century, the United States effectively made colonies of Nicaragua, Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Haiti, and several other countries. Wilson's reaction to the Russian Revolution solidified the alignment of the United States with Europe's colonial powers. His was the first administration to be obsessed with the specter of communism, abroad and at home. Wilson was blunt about it. In Billings, Montana, stumping the West to seek support for the League of Nations, he warned, "There are apostles of Lenin in our own midst. I can not imagine what it means to be an apostle of Lenin. It means to be an apostle of the night, of chaos, of disorder." Even after the White Russian alternative collapsed, Wilson refused to extend diplomatic recognition to the Soviet Union. He participated in barring Russia from the peace negotiations after World War I and helped oust Béla Kun, the communist leader who had risen to power in Hungary. Wilson's sentiment for self-determination and democracy never had a chance against his three bedrock "ism"s: colonialism, racism, and anticommunism. A young Ho Chi Minh appealed to Woodrow Wilson at Versailles for self-determination for Vietnam, but Ho had all three strikes against him. Wilson refused to listen, and France retained control of Indochina. It seems that Wilson regarded self-determination as all right for, say, Belgium, but not for the likes of Latin America or Southeast Asia.

At home, Wilson's racial policies disgraced the office he held. His Republican predecessors had routinely appointed blacks to important offices, including those of port collector for New Orleans and the District of Columbia and register of the treasury. Presidents sometimes appointed African Americans as postmasters, particularly in southern towns with large black populations. African Americans took part in the Republican Party's national conventions and enjoyed some access to the White House. Woodrow Wilson, for whom many African Americans voted in 1912, changed all that. A southerner, Wilson had been president of Princeton, the only major northern university that refused to admit blacks. He was an outspoken white supremacist -- his wife was even worse -- and told "darky" stories in cabinet meetings. His administration submitted a legislative program intended to curtail the civil rights of African Americans, but Congress would not pass it. Unfazed, Wilson used his power as chief executive to segregate the federal government. He appointed southern whites to offices traditionally reserved for blacks. Wilson personally vetoed a clause on racial equality in the Covenant of the League of Nations. The one occasion on which Wilson met with African American leaders in the White House ended in a fiasco as the president virtually threw the visitors out of his office. Wilson's legacy was extensive: he effectively closed the Democratic Party to African Americans for another two decades, and parts of the federal government remained segregated into the 1950s and beyond. In 1916 the Colored Advisory Committee of the Republican National Committee issued a statement on Wilson that, though partisan, was accurate: "No sooner had the Democratic Administration come into power than Mr. Wilson and his advisors entered upon a policy to eliminate all colored citizens from representation in the Federal Government."

Of the twelve history textbooks I reviewed, only four accurately describe Wilson's racial policies. Land of Promise does the best job:

Woodrow Wilson's administration was openly hostile to black people. Wilson was an outspoken white supremacist who believed that black people were inferior. During his campaign for the presidency, Wilson promised to press for civil rights. But once in office he forgot his promises. Instead, Wilson ordered that white and black workers in federal government jobs be segregated from one another. This was the first time such segregation had existed since Reconstruction! When black federal employees in Southern cities protested the order, Wilson had the protesters fired. In November, 1914, a black delegation asked the President to reverse his policies. Wilson was rude and hostile and refused their demands.

Unfortunately, except for one other textbook, The United States -- A History of the Republic, Promise stands alone. Most of the textbooks that treat Wilson's racism give it only a sentence or two. Five of the books never even mention this "black mark" on Wilson's presidency. One that does, The American Way, does something even more astonishing: it invents a happy ending! "Those in favor of segregation finally lost support in the administration. Their policies gradually were ended." This is simply not true.

Omitting or absolving Wilson's racism goes beyond concealing a character blemish. It is overtly racist. No black person could ever consider Woodrow Wilson a hero. Textbooks that present him as a hero are written from a white perspective. The coverup denies all students the chance to learn something important about the interrelationship between the leader and the led. White Americans engaged in a new burst of racial violence during and immediately after Wilson's presidency. The tone set by the administration was one cause. Another was the release of America's first epic motion picture.

The filmmaker David W. Griffith quoted Wilson's two-volume history of the United States, now notorious for its racist view of Reconstruction, in his infamous masterpiece The Clansman, a paean to the Ku Klux Klan for its role in putting down "black-dominated" Republican state governments during Reconstruction. Griffith based the movie on a book by Wilson's former classmate, Thomas Dixon, whose obsession with race was "unrivaled until Mein Kampf." At a private White House showing, Wilson saw the movie, now retitled Birth of a Nation, and returned Griffith's compliment: "It is like writing history with lightning, and my only regret is that it is all so true." Griffith would go on to use this quotation in successfully defending his film against NAACP charges that it was racially inflammatory.

This landmark of American cinema was not only the best technical production of its time but also probably the most racist major movie of all time. Dixon intended "to revolutionize northern sentiment by a presentation of history that would transform every man in my audience into a good Democrat!...And make no mistake about it -- we are doing just that." Dixon did not overstate by much. Spurred by Birth of a Nation, William Simmons of Georgia reestablished the Ku Klux Klan. The racism seeping down from the White House encouraged this Klan, distinguishing it from its Reconstruction predecessor, which President Grant had succeeded in virtually eliminating in one state (South Carolina) and discouraging nationally for a time. The new KKK quickly became a national phenomenon. It grew to dominate the Democratic Party in many southern states, as well as in Indiana, Oklahoma, and Oregon. During Wilson's second term, a wave of antiblack race riots swept the country. Whites lynched blacks as far north as Duluth.

If Americans had learned from the Wilson era the connection between racist presidential leadership and like-minded public response, they might not have put up with a reprise on a far smaller scale during the Reagan-Bush years. To accomplish such education, however, textbooks would have to make plain the relationship between cause and effect, between hero and followers. Instead, they reflexively ascribe noble intentions to the hero and invoke "the people" to excuse questionable actions and policies. According to Triumph of the American Nation: "As President, Wilson seemed to agree with most white Americans that segregation was in the best interests of black as well as white Americans."

Wilson was not only antiblack; he was also far and away our most nativist president, repeatedly questioning the loyalty of those he called "hyphenated Americans." "Any man who carries a hyphen about with him," said Wilson, "carries a dagger that he is ready to plunge into the vitals of this Republic whenever he gets ready." The American people responded to Wilson's lead with a wave of repression of white ethnic groups; again, most textbooks blame the people, not Wilson. The American Tradition admits that "President Wilson set up" the Creel Committee on Public Information, which saturated the United States with propaganda linking Germans to barbarism. But Tradition hastens to shield Wilson from the ensuing domestic fallout: "Although President Wilson had been careful in his war message to state that most Americans of German descent were 'true and loyal citizens,' the anti-German propaganda often caused them suffering."

Wilson displayed little regard for the rights of anyone whose opinions differed from his own. But textbooks take pains to insulate him from wrongdoing. "Congress," not Wilson, is credited with having passed the Espionage Act of June 1917 and the Sedition Act of the following year, probably the most serious attacks on the civil liberties of Americans since the short-lived Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798. In fact, Wilson tried to strengthen the Espionage Act with a provision giving broad censorship powers directly to the president. Moreover, with Wilson's approval, his postmaster general used his new censorship powers to suppress all mail that was socialist, anti-British, pro-Irish, or that in any other way might, in his view, have threatened the war effort. Robert Goldstein served ten years in prison for producing The Spirit of '76, a film about the Revolutionary War that depicted the British, who were now our allies, unfavorably. Textbook authors suggest that wartime pressures excuse Wilson's suppression of civil liberties, but in 1920, when World War I was long over, Wilson vetoed a bill that would have abolished the Espionage and Sedition acts. Textbook authors blame the anticommunist and anti-labor union witch hunts of Wilson's second term on his illness and on an attorney general run amok. No evidence supports this view. Indeed, Attorney General Palmer asked Wilson in his last days as president to pardon Eugene V. Debs, who was serving time for a speech attributing World War I to economic interests and denouncing the Espionage Act as undemocratic. The president replied, "Never!" and Debs languished in prison until Warren Harding pardoned him. The American Way adopts perhaps the most innovative approach to absolving Wilson of wrongdoing: Way simply moves the "red scare" to the 1920s, after Wilson had left office!

Because heroification prevents textbooks from showing Wilson's shortcomings, textbooks are hard pressed to explain the results of the 1920 election. James Cox, the Democratic candidate who was Wilson's would-be successor, was crushed by the nonentity Warren G. Harding, who never even campaigned. In the biggest landslide in the history of American presidential politics, Harding got almost 64 percent of the major-party votes. The people were "tired," textbooks suggest, and just wanted a "return to normalcy." The possibility that the electorate knew what it was doing in rejecting Wilson never occurs to our authors. It occurred to Helen Keller, however. She called Wilson "the greatest individual disappointment the world has ever known!"

It isn't only high school history courses that heroify Wilson. Textbooks such as Land of Promise, which discusses Wilson's racism, have to battle uphill, for they struggle against the archetypal Woodrow Wilson commemorated in so many history museums, public television documentaries, and historical novels.
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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby Symmetry on Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:59 pm

So- the Holocaust- probably not Woodrow Wilson's fault, more the Nazis.

/thread
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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:21 am

Symmetry wrote:So- the Holocaust- probably not Woodrow Wilson's fault, more the Nazis.

/thread


Did Woodrow Wilson share any similarities with Nazi/Hitler philosophies? Perhaps the whole "master race" thingy?
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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby Symmetry on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:30 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:So- the Holocaust- probably not Woodrow Wilson's fault, more the Nazis.

/thread


Did Woodrow Wilson share any similarities with Nazi/Hitler philosophies? Perhaps the whole "master race" thingy?


However racist Wilson may have been, I'm pretty sure he wasn't at the Wannasee conference outlining the Final Solution.
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Re:

Postby DoomYoshi on Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:44 pm

Ok, time to clear up some confusion. It's gone on long enough.

2dimes wrote:America > Nazi Germany therefore Hitler = American.

I think I get it now.


Hitler never spent a considerable portion of his life living in the US. The examples I gave (Sir Walter Scott and Alexander Graham Bell) did. Stop trolling.

Symmetry wrote:So- the Holocaust- probably not Woodrow Wilson's fault, more the Nazis.

/thread


Except you miss the point entirely. The Nazis were convinced that a)there is a place called "Germany" and b)it should be populated by a race called Germans. However, we know, through history and genetics that c) there is no such place called Germany and d) there is no such race as Germans. So, if a and b are correct, it only follows naturally e) that Jews do not belong and must be exterminated.

So no choice of any particular people living in Europe at the time caused the holocaust. It was a natural byproduct of nationalism. Not just any nationalism though. The bullshit nationalism that Woodrow tried to puke all over Europe. By inventing German Identity; by teaching that a) and b) are true, even though they clearly are not; by purposely and disgracefully ruining the map of Europe until the present day, Woodrow Wilson DIRECTLY caused not only the holocaust but every single problem in Europe, and the world, until the present day.
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Re: Re:

Postby Iliad on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:42 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Ok, time to clear up some confusion. It's gone on long enough.

2dimes wrote:America > Nazi Germany therefore Hitler = American.

I think I get it now.


Hitler never spent a considerable portion of his life living in the US. The examples I gave (Sir Walter Scott and Alexander Graham Bell) did. Stop trolling.

Symmetry wrote:So- the Holocaust- probably not Woodrow Wilson's fault, more the Nazis.

/thread


Except you miss the point entirely. The Nazis were convinced that a)there is a place called "Germany" and b)it should be populated by a race called Germans. However, we know, through history and genetics that c) there is no such place called Germany and d) there is no such race as Germans. So, if a and b are correct, it only follows naturally e) that Jews do not belong and must be exterminated.

Firstly, nationalism and the concept of nations is real. It's not a mathematical or a scientific factor, but it is certainly a social one and an important part of a person's identity. I see you've completely ignored my post before. Sigh.
DoomYoshi wrote:So no choice of any particular people living in Europe at the time caused the holocaust. It was a natural byproduct of nationalism. Not just any nationalism though. The bullshit nationalism that Woodrow tried to puke all over Europe. By inventing German Identity; by teaching that a) and b) are true, even though they clearly are not; by purposely and disgracefully ruining the map of Europe until the present day, Woodrow Wilson DIRECTLY caused not only the holocaust but every single problem in Europe, and the world, until the present day.

How ridiculously Amerocentric that you think Wilson created nationalism. No, it wasn't. IF you are actually interested in nationalism and politics, check out Mackinder, and then Haushofer and the field of geopolitics. It was from that the concept of Lebensbraum emerged.

Americans did not invent nationalism, German identity predated Wilson by a fair margin. Check out Heimat, a german concept of home that's particularly pertinent to its nationalism. Also Napoleonic wars and conscription and its effect on nationalism. And again google Benedict Anderson and why the printing press gave root to modern nations. Not this half baked absolute bullshit that a man who rose to power in America, about 50 years after the unification of Germany somehow created the idea of Germany.
DoomYoshi wrote:Woodrow Wilson DIRECTLY caused not only the holocaust but every single problem in Europe, and the world, until the present day.

Oh boy. That's kinda beyond words. That you think Wilson directly caused holocaust is just unbelievable. No Wilson did not create nationalism. By definition it's kinda hard for one man to create a collective attachment to a concept. It's also terrible Big Man history that's kinda outdated, but that's slightly beside the point.

Nationalism, its roots and effects are a fascinating and complex thing. If you think you have a concrete grasp of it already you will make idiotic posts like these. I award you no points.
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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:10 am

Ok, well regardless of whether Woodrow actually invented German identity, if he did, he was directly responsible for the holocaust.

It's not a mathematical or a scientific factor, but it is certainly a social one and an important part of a person's identity

This is the problem. The fact that this statement is true makes the Holocaust, and all non-random genocides, justifiable.

Random genocides are justifiable just because I like the idea of drawing random groups of people out of a hat and destroying them. Preferably a bowler hat. I imagine jonesy has one.

On to other points. Heimat is a concept from post-Wilson Europe.

Napoleonic Nationalism can't be overlooked, and I made sure to not say that Wilson invented nationalism as an individual concept. In any case, it doesn't matter what political scientists or literary spanks were writing about for years before Wilson. The point is that he implemented this stuff. Academics don't deserve any credit for anything, ever.

If they do, then surely Liddell-Hart is responsible for the Nazis quick conquering of France.

Finally, the Wiki version of Benedict Anderson doesn't seem to actually contradict any claim I am making.
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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby Iliad on Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:12 am

DoomYoshi wrote:Ok, well regardless of whether Woodrow actually invented German identity, if he did, he was directly responsible for the holocaust.

So regardless of the actual truth? What? Woodrow Wilson had nothing to with German nationalism and oyu're doing an awful job of backtracking.

Well regardless of whether DoomYoshi talked with lizardpeople, if he did, he was directly responsible for 9/11. Wee, I can do this too.

You've managed to be completely wrong in your entire post about basically everything.
DoomYoshi wrote:
Iliad wrote:It's not a mathematical or a scientific factor, but it is certainly a social one and an important part of a person's identity

This is the problem. The fact that this statement is true makes the Holocaust, and all non-random genocides, justifiable.

Random genocides are justifiable just because I like the idea of drawing random groups of people out of a hat and destroying them. Preferably a bowler hat. I imagine jonesy has one.

And my point was that nationalism and national identity does exist, despite your attempts to claim it doesn't or it didn't, it's a fairly important social distinction. If you claim there is no such thing as Germany there are a lot of baffled Germans, because to them there is certainly such a thing.
DoomYoshi wrote:On to other points. Heimat is a concept from post-Wilson Europe.
No it's not, no idea what your 10 second google search told you.


DoomYoshi wrote:Napoleonic Nationalism can't be overlooked, and I made sure to not say that Wilson invented nationalism as an individual concept. In any case, it doesn't matter what political scientists or literary spanks were writing about for years before Wilson. The point is that he implemented this stuff. Academics don't deserve any credit for anything, ever.


If they do, then surely Liddell-Hart is responsible for the Nazis quick conquering of France.

Finally, the Wiki version of Benedict Anderson doesn't seem to actually contradict any claim I am making.


Oh boy. You said Woodrow Wilson forced nationalism onto Europe and that caused the Holocaust.

Firstly Wilson did not force nationalism on Europe. I directed you to actual causes of nationalism but you in all glory decided to ignore it altogether. Once again, nationalism predated Wilson and he had nothing to do with that. You're going to have to go a level beyond Wikipedia champ if you actually want to argue about this. Google Benedict Anderson and Imagined Community.

Also, secondly, it wasn't just nationalism that led to the Holocaust. Plenty of states today with a healthy national identity and distinct lack of ethnic purging. It takes more factors than just a national identity for people to start rounding up minorities. You're kinda absolving a lot of blame from the Nazis here.

I've explained and mentioned enough authors and concepts for you to actually to get started on this and and not have a batshit arguments. Have fun.
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