$168 Per Day

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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:48 pm

patches70 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
patches70 wrote:What you seem to be disregarding is that it's not just the money the recipient gets, it's the administrative costs and other costs associated with getting that payment to the person in the first place.


Does anyone have data on what percentage of welfare costs actually gets dispersed to welfare recipients, as opposed to being spent on bureaucracy?


Why would you separate the two?
(Just curious as to exactly why you think this is relevant. Why wouldn't one consider the total cost?)


Well, in principle bureaucracy costs can be reduced through streamlining. I want to know what the minimum possible cost of our welfare system is, in addition to what it actually is because of inefficient overhead.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby patches70 on Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:26 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Well, in principle bureaucracy costs can be reduced through streamlining. I want to know what the minimum possible cost of our welfare system is, in addition to what it actually is because of inefficient overhead.


Hmmm, streamlining. Elaborate on that if you would. I suppose it could be argued that the minimum possible cost of our welfare system is what we already spend, since lots of people say we don't spend enough. After all, didn't that mayor of whatever city do that publicity stunt of only spending $4 a day on food like welfare recipients (supposedly) get?


You saw this part of my post?-

patches wrote:Here you see that TANF and AFDC has around 4.6 million total recipients. That's about a third of the Federal welfare spending right there. TANF and AFDC are income security programs ($200billion spent in 2010 of a total of $700billion in federal spending on welfare in 2010).
That's hard numbers there, $200 billion spent on 4.6 million people. That's about $43,000 a person. You think each of those 4.6 million people got that much money each? LOL So, fair warning, you'll get sick to your stomach when you find out how much spent and compared to how much gets to the people who actually need it is.
That is the nature of government.







I'm curious to hear what you say about streamlining. To me, that means eliminating jobs, government jobs. Combining federal welfare programs (which means eliminating jobs, government jobs), eliminating regulations (which leads to abuse and fraud) or tightening regulations (which means hiring more people, more government jobs). Getting better equipment (capital expenditure, for government, very costly).
Tell me, a politician who is telling people he's going to cut their jobs, how does that voting go for him?

The real reason we have to spend more and more and more money, government and individuals alike, is because our money is worth less and less.

Don't you see, we spend so much more money and still get pretty much the same things we did in 1970. A house, food, transportation, clothes, education, healthcare, entertainment. But back in 1970 and before, that could be done by most American families one a single paycheck. And back in the 1970's and before we had our currency pegged, at least partially, by gold. That ended when Nixon (to pay for wars and social programs) slammed the gold window shut and effectively defaulted on our currency (but the world just looked the other way back then).
Now a days, American families are getting the exact same stuff but it takes two incomes just to scrape by (and ain't saving a damn thing).

It's the money. Its the currency being less and less valuable.

Streamline all you want, it won't matter because the currency just keeps getting less and less valuable. That's why before we ever have any chance at all of fixing any of this other stuff, we have to get into sound money. Get out of this debt based system.
At this point, considering how uneducated and how distracted the American public is on this issue (considering the obfuscation ITT at the very least), the only way that's going to happen is after a complete meltdown of the economic system. Total collapse. At which point, if we haven't learned our lesson, it will be replaced with some equal scam as the Federal Reserve Note.

Everything else is just an effect from this single cause. IMO.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Metsfanmax on Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:00 am

patches70 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Well, in principle bureaucracy costs can be reduced through streamlining. I want to know what the minimum possible cost of our welfare system is, in addition to what it actually is because of inefficient overhead.


Hmmm, streamlining. Elaborate on that if you would. I suppose it could be argued that the minimum possible cost of our welfare system is what we already spend, since lots of people say we don't spend enough. After all, didn't that mayor of whatever city do that publicity stunt of only spending $4 a day on food like welfare recipients (supposedly) get?


I have nothing to elaborate. I wasn't offering a plan, I was just curious exactly how much money is spent on overhead.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby patches70 on Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:04 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
I have nothing to elaborate. I wasn't offering a plan, I was just curious exactly how much money is spent on overhead.


Very likely, a sickening amount......
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Timminz on Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:46 am

patches70 wrote:
Timminz wrote:I'd be interested to see the calculations involved here. Unfortunately, your source contains exactly what you've posted above, and not a single thing more. What does the supposed conversion to cash actually entail?


It shows that it's better for households to live on the government dole than to earn for themselves.

What is the incentive to get off welfare if you'll end up earning less than when you are collecting?



Why would you quote me, when you weren't going to address my question?
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby AAFitz on Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:52 am

patches70 wrote:
Timminz wrote:I'd be interested to see the calculations involved here. Unfortunately, your source contains exactly what you've posted above, and not a single thing more. What does the supposed conversion to cash actually entail?


It shows that it's better for households to live on the government dole than to earn for themselves.

What is the incentive to get off welfare if you'll end up earning less than when you are collecting?


No, it does not say that. As Timminz says, it only shows a graph that suggests it, and does not show where the numbers came from or how they were calculated.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby AAFitz on Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:53 am

Timminz wrote:
patches70 wrote:
Timminz wrote:I'd be interested to see the calculations involved here. Unfortunately, your source contains exactly what you've posted above, and not a single thing more. What does the supposed conversion to cash actually entail?


It shows that it's better for households to live on the government dole than to earn for themselves.

What is the incentive to get off welfare if you'll end up earning less than when you are collecting?



Why would you quote me, when you weren't going to address my question?


Given his response, I dont think he read the quote. There are other assumptions one could make on why such a ridiculous statement would be made after too.

I know, Ill make a graph with the possibilities. Then he'll get it.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:06 pm

Night Strike wrote:
The amount of money spent on welfare programs equals, when converted to cash payments, about "$168 per day for every household in poverty," the minority side of the Senate Budget Committee finds. Here's a chart detailing the committee's findings:

According to the Republican side of the Senate Budget Committee, welfare spending per day per household in poverty is $168, which is higher than the $137 median income per day. When broken down per hour, welfare spending per hour per household in poverty is $30.60, which is higher than the $25.03 median income per hour.

"Based on data from the Congressional Research Service, cumulative spending on means-tested federal welfare programs, if converted into cash, would equal $167.65 per day per household living below the poverty level," writes the minority side of the Senate Budget Committee. "By comparison, the median household income in 2011 of $50,054 equals $137.13 per day. Additionally, spending on federal welfare benefits, if converted into cash payments, equals enough to provide $30.60 per hour, 40 hours per week, to each household living below poverty. The median household hourly wage is $25.03. After accounting for federal taxes, the median hourly wage drops to between $21.50 and $23.45, depending on a household’s deductions and filing status. State and local taxes further reduce the median household’s hourly earnings. By contrast, welfare benefits are not taxed."

The universe of means-tested welfare spending refers to programs that provide low-income assistance in the form of direct or indirect financial support—such as food stamps, free housing, child care, etc.—and which the recipient does not pay into (in contrast to Medicare or Social Security). For fiscal year 2011, CRS identified roughly 80 overlapping federal means-tested welfare programs that together represented the single largest budget item in 2011—more than the nation spends on Social Security, Medicare, or national defense. The total amount spent on these federal programs, when taken together with approximately $280 billion in state contributions, amounted to roughly $1 trillion. Nearly 95 percent of these costs come from four categories of spending: medical assistance, cash assistance, food assistance, and social / housing assistance. Under the President’s FY13 budget proposal, means-tested spending would increase an additional 30 percent over the next four years.

The diffuse and overlapping nature of federal welfare spending has led to some confusion regarding the scope and nature of benefits. For instance, Newark Mayor Cory Booker has recently received a great deal of attention for adopting the “food stamp diet” in which he spends only $4 a day on food (the median individual benefit) to apparently illustrate the insufficiency of food stamp spending ($80 billion a year) or the impossibility of reductions. The situation Booker presents, however, is not accurate: a low-income individual on food stamps may qualify for $25,000 in various forms of welfare support from the federal government on top of his or her existing income and resources—including access to 15 different food assistance programs. Further, even if one unrealistically assumes that no other welfare benefits are available, the size of the food stamp benefit increases as one’s income decreases, as the benefit is designed as a supplement to existing resources; it is explicitly not intended to be the sole source of funds for purchasing food.

Image
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/welfare-spending-equates-168-day-every-household-poverty_665160.html

Funny how so much of the "information" you post refers to sources that seem very reliable, but somehow lack any trace of the data used.


I went through some calculations, all referenced, and came up with figures between $50 and $90 a day, depending upon rental costs.
(note, I copied the websites twice and then hit the wrong key twice..)

A few issues... first, childcare costs are very tricky. For one thing, they are only provided to people who WORK FULLTIME, which means they are really just a means of allowing employers to justify paying adults less than it really takes for them to live (after all, people take these jobs, so the wage "must be OK"). It really is a back-handed business benefit, allowing them to get more responsible workers for much lower cost than otherwise. Further, those working part-time usually don't qualify,even though most part-time people using a professional childcare provider will have to pay full time rates because they often don't have steady schedules. This is a BIG reason why people with more than one child often find its CHEAPER not to work.

Second, medical care costs truly skew the above. A lot of adults who don't work have disabilities that prevent them working and also have very high medical costs. Many families with a disabled child are also not able to fully work, and wind up relying upon those subsidies to help. NONE of that is detailed out.. its all just grouped as "welfare". Further, if you want to get down to it, medical care is available to everyone.. the most expensive care, anyway. Anyone can go to the emergency room and get treated for serious conditions. They will loose what assets they have, but that is irrelevant to this. Ironically, those on Medicaid are very, very cost effective. Keeping a child healthy costs far, far less and results in huge payoffs when that child reaches adulthood.


This brings up another point. Nothing at all is mentioned about the overall real cost of these programs, just the payout. As noted in the Wikki site about WIC, WIC actually saves taxpayers 3 times what it pays out overall. (You can read the details on the Wikki site yourself)
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby john9blue on Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:48 pm

hey

hey guys

you can be opposed to our current welfare SYSTEM without being opposed to the IDEA of welfare

stop towing the fucking party line
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:18 pm

john9blue wrote:you can be opposed to our current welfare SYSTEM without being opposed to the IDEA of welfare

Yes.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Timminz on Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:36 pm

john9blue wrote:hey

hey guys

you can be opposed to our current welfare SYSTEM without being opposed to the IDEA of welfare

stop towing the fucking party line


Also, asking for details or sources is pretty much nothing but slander, so just accept everything you're told, at face value.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby AAFitz on Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:43 pm

john9blue wrote:hey

hey guys

you can be opposed to our current welfare SYSTEM without being opposed to the IDEA of welfare

stop towing the fucking party line


Lol, this is a graph posted by Nightstrike, with no description of where the numbers came from. Id say you're the one doing the towing johnny.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby patches70 on Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:21 pm

AAFitz wrote:
john9blue wrote:hey

hey guys

you can be opposed to our current welfare SYSTEM without being opposed to the IDEA of welfare

stop towing the fucking party line


Lol, this is a graph posted by Nightstrike, with no description of where the numbers came from. Id say you're the one doing the towing johnny.



It's right there at the bottom of the graph.

The Central government spent $1.03 trillion on 80 welfare programs in 2011. Divide that number by 46 million, the number of people in poverty levels (according to the census) and multiply by 365. That comes to $168 a day.

You can look up the numbers yourself.

Welfare is for people in poverty and near poverty levels. We spend $1.03 trillion to help roughly 46 million Americans.

I figure there are probably more than that receiving welfare of some sort, but the report only looks at 80 programs, the top 80 programs in accordance to costs. The programs looked at are all means tested programs, not a single entitlement program that requires people to contribute to (SS, medicare, etc).
Since the programs are means tested, one can only figure out how many fall into the income level to qualify for said programs. Said data available from the census. Thus, is how they came up with the 46 million people.

You can easily look it all up yourself.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby john9blue on Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:01 pm

Timminz wrote:
Also, asking for details or sources is pretty much nothing but slander, so just accept everything you're told, at face value.


AAFitz wrote:Lol, this is a graph posted by Nightstrike, with no description of where the numbers came from. Id say you're the one doing the towing johnny.


first, the source is listed on the graph. second, the topic isn't just about the graph. third, where are your sources? you criticize evidence that contradicts your beliefs but offer no alternative evidence. or is this like atheism, where the burden of proof is only on the people you disagree with?

although judging by timmy's signature, i may be wasting my time trying to get him to see reason.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby trevor33 on Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:31 am

AndyDufresne wrote:I see your graph, and raise you:

Image


--Andy


:lol:
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby rdsrds2120 on Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:15 am

patches70 wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
john9blue wrote:hey

hey guys

you can be opposed to our current welfare SYSTEM without being opposed to the IDEA of welfare

stop towing the fucking party line


Lol, this is a graph posted by Nightstrike, with no description of where the numbers came from. Id say you're the one doing the towing johnny.



It's right there at the bottom of the graph.

The Central government spent $1.03 trillion on 80 welfare programs in 2011. Divide that number by 46 million, the number of people in poverty levels (according to the census) and multiply by 365. That comes to $168 a day.

You can look up the numbers yourself.

Welfare is for people in poverty and near poverty levels. We spend $1.03 trillion to help roughly 46 million Americans.

I figure there are probably more than that receiving welfare of some sort, but the report only looks at 80 programs, the top 80 programs in accordance to costs. The programs looked at are all means tested programs, not a single entitlement program that requires people to contribute to (SS, medicare, etc).
Since the programs are means tested, one can only figure out how many fall into the income level to qualify for said programs. Said data available from the census. Thus, is how they came up with the 46 million people.

You can easily look it all up yourself.


If this is the case, then it takes out a lot of factors like...all of the employees working at DHS offices that are assumed to be paid from that same budget, along with upkeep and maintenance costs of the staff/infrastructure. Can anyone provide a distribution tree for how the budget is divided among all of who's owed?

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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby MeDeFe on Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:58 am

patches70 wrote:The Central government spent $1.03 trillion on 80 welfare programs in 2011. Divide that number by 46 million, the number of people in poverty levels (according to the census) and multiply by 365. That comes to $168 a day.

1030000000000$/(46000000*365) = 61.35$ by my account. That's rounded up by about half a cent.


Then there's this claim that the money only goes people with an income below the poverty level. It's a pity that there's no information about what programs are included in the numbers. Take Medicare for example, according to Wikipedia some 16% of recipients count as "poor", the other 84% do not. That's a lot of welfare going to people who don't live below the poverty level and aren't included in the 46000000 that supposedly are the only ones getting any welfare.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Night Strike on Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:11 am

MeDeFe wrote:
patches70 wrote:The Central government spent $1.03 trillion on 80 welfare programs in 2011. Divide that number by 46 million, the number of people in poverty levels (according to the census) and multiply by 365. That comes to $168 a day.

1030000000000$/(46000000*365) = 61.35$ by my account. That's rounded up by about half a cent.


Then there's this claim that the money only goes people with an income below the poverty level. It's a pity that there's no information about what programs are included in the numbers. Take Medicare for example, according to Wikipedia some 16% of recipients count as "poor", the other 84% do not. That's a lot of welfare going to people who don't live below the poverty level and aren't included in the 46000000 that supposedly are the only ones getting any welfare.


The dollar amount is actually households, not individuals, so patches was slightly incorrect in that calculation.

And the article specifically states Medicare wasn't included because people make contributions to Medicare, so why are you demanding that people above poverty who receive Medicare be included?
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Baron Von PWN on Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:03 am

patches70 wrote:
Timminz wrote:I'd be interested to see the calculations involved here. Unfortunately, your source contains exactly what you've posted above, and not a single thing more. What does the supposed conversion to cash actually entail?


It shows that it's better for households to live on the government dole than to earn for themselves.

What is the incentive to get off welfare if you'll end up earning less than when you are collecting?


No it doesen't. That's the cost of administring the dole. Not how much the dole actualy is.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby patches70 on Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:20 am

Baron Von PWN wrote:
No it doesen't. That's the cost of administring the dole. Not how much the dole actualy is.



You see the welfare cliffs here?-

Image


Tell me, what incentive does a single mother making $28K a year have to go out and get a better job paying $69K year when she'd be losing money because she'd no longer be eligible for benefits?

It's called a poverty trap and is one of the biggest legitimate criticisms about the US welfare program.

You could just say tax the $69K a year earner less, but that just exacerbates the cost of welfare in a universe where the government is borrowing 46 cents of every dollar it is spending. There is no easy fix. Poor people need help, but how is that help to be delivered? By stealing from the future earnings of future workers?

Because, that's effectively what we are doing.



metsfan wrote:It's a pity that there's no information about what programs are included in the numbers


Yes there is. The actual report is online. You just need to google it. These are the programs checked-
There is also available online the entire Congressional testimony done recently of all the welfare numbers, which is what spurred all this in the first place.

A list of all 83 federal welfare programs examined by CRS follows:
 Family Planning
 Consolidated Health Centers
 Transitional Cash and Medical Services
for Refugees
 State Children’s Health Insurance
Program (CHIP)
 Voluntary Medicare Prescription Drug
Benefit—Low-Income Subsidy
 Medicaid
 Ryan White HIV/AIDS Program
 Breast/Cervical Cancer Early Detection
 Maternal and Child Health Block Grant
 Indian Health Service
 Temporary Assistance for Needy
Families (TANF) (cash aid)
 Supplemental Security Income
 Additional Child Tax Credit
 Earned Income Tax Credit (refundable
component)
 Supplemental Nutrition Assistance
Program (SNAP)
 School Breakfast Program (free/reduced
price components)
 National School Lunch Program
(free/reduced price components)
 Special Supplemental Nutrition Program
for Women, Infants and Children (WIC)
 Child and Adult Care Food Program
(lower income components)
 Summer Food Service Program
 Commodity Supplemental
 Food Program Nutrition Assistance for
Puerto Rico
 The Emergency Food Assistance
Program (TEFAP)
 Nutrition Program for the Elderly
 Indian Education
 Adult Basic Education Grants to States
 Federal Supplemental Educational
Opportunity Grant
 Education for the Disadvantaged—
Grants to Local Educational Agencies
(Title I-A)
 Title I Migrant Education Program
 Higher Education—Institutional Aid and
Developing Institutions
 Federal Work-Study
 Federal TRIO Programs
 Federal Pell Grants
 Education for Homeless Children and
Youth
 21st Century Community Learning
Centers
 Gaining Early Awareness and Readiness
for Undergraduate Programs (GEARUP) Reading First and Early Reading First
 Rural Education Achievement Program
 Mathematics and Science Partnerships
 Improving Teacher Quality State Grants
 Academic Competitiveness and Smart
Grant Program
 Single-Family Rural Housing Loans
 Rural Rental Assistance Program
 Water and Waste Disposal for Rural
Communities
 Public Works and Economic
Development
 Supportive Housing for the Elderly
 Supportive Housing for Persons with
Disabilities
 Section 8 Project-Based Rental
Assistance
 Community Development Block Grants
 Homeless Assistance Grants
 Home Investment Partnerships Program
(HOME)
 Housing Opportunities for Persons with
AIDS (HOPWA)
 Public Housing
 Indian Housing Block Grants
 Section 8 Housing Choice Vouchers
 Neighborhood Stabilization Program-1
 Grants to States for Low-Income
Housing in Lieu of Low-Income
Housing Credit Allocations
 Tax Credit Assistance Program
 Indian Human Services
 Older Americans Act Grants for
Supportive Services and Senior Centers
 Older Americans Act Family Caregiver
Program
 Temporary Assistance for Needy
Families (TANF) (social services)
 Child Support Enforcement
 Community Services Block Grant
 Child Care and Development Fund
 Head Start HHS
 Developmental Disabilities Support and
Advocacy Grants
 Foster Care
 Adoption Assistance
 Social Services Block Grant
 Chafee Foster Care Independence
Program
 Emergency Food and Shelter Program
 Legal Services Corporation
 Supplemental Nutrition Assistance
Program (SNAP) (employment and
training component)
 Community Service Employment for
Older Americans
 Workforce Investment Act (WIA) Adult
Activities
 Workforce Investment Act (WIA) Youth
Activities
 Social Services and Targeted Assistance
for Refugees
 Temporary Assistance for Needy
Families (TANF) (employment and
training)
 Foster Grandparents
 Job Corps
 Weatherization Assistance Program
 Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program (LIHEAP)
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby patches70 on Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:30 am

And the borrowing the 46 cents for every dollar spent wouldn't bad so bad if it were not The Federal Reserve now purchasing 90% of all new government debt. I.E. monetizing the debt. I.E. printing money out of thin air.
This just increases inflation thus exasperating the plight of lower income people who now need help to purchase the goods and services they need just to survive.

If the money the government was borrowing was money already in circulation, I.E. private citizens buying bonds with their own money, there would be no increase in the monetary supply and would not contribute to inflation. It would be borrowing the savings of Americans who have been working and saving, something not enough Americans are able to do.

Again, it comes down to the fiat money system where a central bank, at government bequest, pumps newly created money into the system. Money that has to be paid back by everyone, even those of us who are not yet born.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Timminz on Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:34 am

john9blue wrote:
Timminz wrote:Also, asking for details or sources is pretty much nothing but slander, so just accept everything you're told, at face value.


AAFitz wrote:Lol, this is a graph posted by Nightstrike, with no description of where the numbers came from. Id say you're the one doing the towing johnny.


first, the source is listed on the graph.


The source listed on the graph is, "some Republican who did some math", with no mention of the calculations used when they "converted to cash", and no mention of which specific statistics they used in those calculations.

All I'm asking for is details. I'd like to understand how these numbers were determined. Not even arguing against them. Just asking for details.

Why are you being so defensive?
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:46 pm

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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:57 pm

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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Lootifer on Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:04 pm

patches70 wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:
No it doesen't. That's the cost of administring the dole. Not how much the dole actualy is.



You see the welfare cliffs here?-

Image


Tell me, what incentive does a single mother making $28K a year have to go out and get a better job paying $69K year when she'd be losing money because she'd no longer be eligible for benefits?

It's called a poverty trap and is one of the biggest legitimate criticisms about the US welfare program.

You could just say tax the $69K a year earner less, but that just exacerbates the cost of welfare in a universe where the government is borrowing 46 cents of every dollar it is spending. There is no easy fix. Poor people need help, but how is that help to be delivered? By stealing from the future earnings of future workers?

Because, that's effectively what we are doing.

And my comment on that graph is similar (but not as extreme) to J_B: I would identify the fundamental problem as being that the person earning 60k is not being paid enough, rather than welfare being too much.

However the cliffs are retarded and obvious design flaws.

Edit: Also have you got a glossary for the items on the chart?
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