$168 Per Day

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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:27 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Juan, if you're so jealous of CEO pay, why don't you do something with yourself and become a CEO instead of demanding that the government take money away from others and hand it to you?


Because people who think something is wrong generally don't want to become the wrongdoers?


If you buy anything from the corporate structure you are part of the problem, AKA wrongdoer.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Night Strike on Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:45 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Juan, if you're so jealous of CEO pay, why don't you do something with yourself and become a CEO instead of demanding that the government take money away from others and hand it to you?


Because people who think something is wrong generally don't want to become the wrongdoers?


Why not? He can distribute his entire salary to the workers while only keeping his "living wage". He can be a role model for other CEOs instead of just another greedy person demanding the government take it away from them.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:54 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Juan, if you're so jealous of CEO pay, why don't you do something with yourself and become a CEO instead of demanding that the government take money away from others and hand it to you?


Because people who think something is wrong generally don't want to become the wrongdoers?


Why not? He can distribute his entire salary to the workers while only keeping his "living wage". He can be a role model for other CEOs instead of just another greedy person demanding the government take it away from them.


This is not a method by which one can reform the system. Other CEOs will not follow the lead of a role model; if they would, Warren Buffet would already have convinced all wealthy people that they should pay more in taxes.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby john9blue on Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:02 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Juan, if you're so jealous of CEO pay, why don't you do something with yourself and become a CEO instead of demanding that the government take money away from others and hand it to you?


Because people who think something is wrong generally don't want to become the wrongdoers?


Why not? He can distribute his entire salary to the workers while only keeping his "living wage". He can be a role model for other CEOs instead of just another greedy person demanding the government take it away from them.


This is not a method by which one can reform the system. Other CEOs will not follow the lead of a role model; if they would, Warren Buffet would already have convinced all wealthy people that they should pay more in taxes.


warren buffett is giving away most of his wealth to charity... and if more CEO's shared buffett's views, i'm sure it would have a bigger effect on national politics.

that being said, it's way harder for someone like juan to become a CEO as opposed to someone who was born rich, so it's pretty dumb to blame juan for that.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Night Strike on Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:20 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Juan, if you're so jealous of CEO pay, why don't you do something with yourself and become a CEO instead of demanding that the government take money away from others and hand it to you?


Because people who think something is wrong generally don't want to become the wrongdoers?


Why not? He can distribute his entire salary to the workers while only keeping his "living wage". He can be a role model for other CEOs instead of just another greedy person demanding the government take it away from them.


This is not a method by which one can reform the system. Other CEOs will not follow the lead of a role model; if they would, Warren Buffet would already have convinced all wealthy people that they should pay more in taxes.


Maybe if Warren Buffet actually wrote checks to the government instead of demanding higher income taxes (that he won't be paying), he might actually be credible.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:22 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Juan, if you're so jealous of CEO pay, why don't you do something with yourself and become a CEO instead of demanding that the government take money away from others and hand it to you?


Because people who think something is wrong generally don't want to become the wrongdoers?


Why not? He can distribute his entire salary to the workers while only keeping his "living wage". He can be a role model for other CEOs instead of just another greedy person demanding the government take it away from them.


This is not a method by which one can reform the system. Other CEOs will not follow the lead of a role model; if they would, Warren Buffet would already have convinced all wealthy people that they should pay more in taxes.


Maybe if Warren Buffet actually wrote checks to the government instead of demanding higher income taxes (that he won't be paying), he might actually be credible.


Warren Buffet has pledged to give a very large portion of his income to charity. I think he has proven that he is willing to sacrifice his personal wealth for the betterment of society. The same cannot be said for many others.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Night Strike on Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:27 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:Warren Buffet has pledged to give a very large portion of his income to charity. I think he has proven that he is willing to sacrifice his personal wealth for the betterment of society. The same cannot be said for many others.


How do you know how much every single CEO donates to charity? Heck, you all reamed on Mitt Romney, a former CEO, even though he gave something like 20% of his income to charity. And why are you all praising Buffet's claims of donating to charities when you're also using this thread to demand the government take the money away from the rich, which means they won't be donating it to charities? And why do you praise Buffet for giving to charity while demanding others pay more to the government when he doesn't give more money to the government on his own? Furthermore, why are you comparing a BILLIONAIRE investor to the owner of a small business (since they're both considered the same level of rich under Obama)?
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Timminz on Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:47 pm

Sometimes I really enjoy the stream-of-consciousness rants of talking points. I mean, small business owners?! From way out in left field....
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Lootifer on Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:56 pm

patches70 wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
Firstly I wasnt supplying a solution; just identifying what I think the problem is.


You think this is the problem?-

Lootifer wrote: I would identify the fundamental problem as being that the person earning 60k is not being paid enough



I don't think that's right at all. It's not that the person isn't earning enough, it's that the currency they are earning is not valuable enough.

There was a time when earning $60K a year would be more than enough.
We think it's only natural that prices rise. That's not true at all, it's anything but natural. When you look prices of things in another medium, a more stable medium, you see that prices of things has dropped dramatically.

Thirty years ago a dollar would have bought you eight loaves of bread. But look at it in another medium of exchange, gold. Thirty years ago an ounce of could would have bought you a hundred loaves of bread where the dollar would have bought you only eight.

Today, a dollar won't even buy you a loaf of bread, not even half a load. But how much bread could you buy with an ounce of gold today? Around 600 loaves.


When you look at prices in a stable medium of exchange, such as gold which is about the most stable medium of exchange there has ever been in the history of mankind, you can clearly see that the prices of things as gone down, a lot!
You can compare this with anything that can be bought or sold. And results are always the same.


But the dollar, what we use every day, what we are paid in, it's value only gets worse and worse.

Therefore you should be able to clearly see that this isn't that people aren't getting enough money, it's that what they are getting for their labors is worth less and less and less. It's the currency itself that is the problem. It is the central problem that has to be corrected first before there is ever going to be a chance to correct anything else.


Lootifer wrote:And my premise is that to pay for the welfare programmes the government is not printing money to do so.


Where did the bills that are in your wallet come from?

LOL

Absolutely the government is printing money, how else did it come into existence in the first place if it were not printed or created some way out of thin air?
Our currency isn't tied to gold or any other commodity. Ctrl P. That's where money comes from. And it all has to be paid back, every single penny. And when it's all paid back, every dime ever created, we'd still owe the interest, which we would not be able to pay because the currency to pay the interest is never printed. Only what is borrowed is printed. To pay the interest we must borrow more so that more can be printed.

Don't you see that?

And every newly printed dollar makes every other dollar already in existence worth less. And it is impossible to not keep printing because of the very nature of how currency comes into existence. It's borrowed (thus the term "debt based").

And this leads to problems, like the ever increasing need for more and more welfare funds, as an example. Which only contributes more to the problem. It is unsustainable and in reality is only "kicking the can" down the road. Until such time comes (and it always comes) that the "can" can't be kicked down the road any longer.
Then it gets interesting.
And by interesting, I mean for many people it will be quite horrible, namely poor bastards who are on welfare, for one.....

I want to reply to this btw, rest assured im not dodging. I am just, ironically enough, busy as f*ck at work lol.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:06 pm

Night Strike wrote:How do you know how much every single CEO donates to charity?


I do know that systematically, wealthy Americans donate significantly less of their income (as a percentage) than people of lower income levels.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/2 ... 19142.html

Heck, you all reamed on Mitt Romney, a former CEO, even though he gave something like 20% of his income to charity.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/edwindurgy/ ... iven-away/

Most of the money Romney has donated to "charity" has really just been to support his church, which I do not consider to be charitable giving of the type that benefits society as a whole. Apparently if you're Mitt Romney, you essentially only deserve his support if you believe in the same religious views he does.

And why are you all praising Buffet's claims of donating to charities when you're also using this thread to demand the government take the money away from the rich, which means they won't be donating it to charities?


Because charitable giving is no longer needed if people contribute to that cause as a result of their taxation.

And why do you praise Buffet for giving to charity while demanding others pay more to the government when he doesn't give more money to the government on his own?


As I already said, because Buffett writing a check to the government wouldn't actually cause systematic change. Being an advocate so that he and everyone else of his level of wealth is forced to pay more in taxes, would result in change.

Furthermore, why are you comparing a BILLIONAIRE investor to the owner of a small business (since they're both considered the same level of rich under Obama)?


Was I doing that?
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Lootifer on Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:10 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:As I already said, because Buffett writing a check to the government wouldn't actually cause systematic change. Being an advocate so that he and everyone else of his level of wealth is forced to pay more in taxes, would result in change.

For what its worth, you and I want systemic change not systematic change :P
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:13 pm

Quick question - If we raised the minimum wage to $9.80 an hour, which the Democrats proposed earlier this year, would that help a lot or not help at all?

Let's see. Assuming 8 hour work day and 5 day work week, that's $78.40 a day, $392 a week, and $20,384 a year. That can't be enough to live on. I wonder why the Democrats want to raise the minimum wage?

By the way, for whatever it's worth, I'm all for raising the minimum wage if it's an actual, for realsies, increase that actually affects more people instead of this fake crap to make sure union carpenters can make $98 an hour instead of $80 an hour.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:20 pm

Lootifer wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:As I already said, because Buffett writing a check to the government wouldn't actually cause systematic change. Being an advocate so that he and everyone else of his level of wealth is forced to pay more in taxes, would result in change.

For what its worth, you and I want systemic change not systematic change :P


Systematic change is the word I intended to use, as it accurately expresses what I was trying to say. If there's any real difference between the words, in this context, it might be that systemic change would be something like the nature of government fundamentally changing. On the other hand, I was expressing the hope that we would have a systematic change to a state where donation to charitable causes is handled by the government in an ordered manner rather than on an ad hoc basis by individual giving.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:24 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Juan, if you're so jealous of CEO pay, why don't you do something with yourself and become a CEO instead of demanding that the government take money away from others and hand it to you?


Because people who think something is wrong generally don't want to become the wrongdoers?


Why not? He can distribute his entire salary to the workers while only keeping his "living wage". He can be a role model for other CEOs instead of just another greedy person demanding the government take it away from them.


This is not a method by which one can reform the system. Other CEOs will not follow the lead of a role model; if they would, Warren Buffet would already have convinced all wealthy people that they should pay more in taxes.


Maybe other people will start paying more in taxes when those people who are obsessed with other people's money start leading by example. There is nothing courageous or compassionate about lust for other people's money, and is actually probably the greediest thing in our world currently.

Besides, other people paying more in taxes does not fix anything
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:26 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Maybe other people will start paying more in taxes when those people who are obsessed with other people's money start leading by example. There is nothing courageous or compassionate about lust for other people's money, and is actually probably the greediest thing in our world currently


You think that wanting to redistribute other peoples' money for societal good is more greedy than building up a large pile of cash so that you can buy nicer toys?
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby patches70 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:29 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
On the other hand, I was expressing the hope that we would have a systematic change to a state where donation to charitable causes is handled by the government in an ordered manner


Man, the government taking your money without you having a say about it (through taxes) and giving it to charity, is not charity. It's something else all together.

Charity by definition is voluntary. Taxes are not voluntary.
What you are actually talking about is theft.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:31 pm

patches70 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
On the other hand, I was expressing the hope that we would have a systematic change to a state where donation to charitable causes is handled by the government in an ordered manner


Man, the government taking your money without you having a say about it (through taxes) and giving it to charity, is not charity. It's something else all together.

Charity by definition is voluntary. Taxes are not voluntary.
What you are actually talking about is theft.


It is not theft, it is part of the social contract. You implicitly agree to it by being part of a representative democracy, paying your taxes and obeying the law. It can only be theft if you believe the government is illegitimate or does not represent you.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:34 pm

Sounds like a pleasant sounding form of slavery...

"So long as you eat my food, and show up to work on my fields, you agree to my social contract. Of course, you can leave at any time...."
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:01 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Sounds like a pleasant sounding form of slavery...

"So long as you eat my food, and show up to work on my fields, you agree to my social contract. Of course, you can leave at any time...."


Do you think the government is only legitimate if it collects taxes to support only the things you want it to?
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Juan_Bottom on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:03 pm

patches70 wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:You attack anything specific about what I say and I will destroy your arguments with the wrath of an angry god and make you appear to be a drooling retard barely capable of clickety-clicking your keyboard into sentences that have structural form.




I don't care about your class warfare rhetoric. All you are doing is attempting to throw down one set of elites and replace them with another set of elites. And you don't even identify the right problem. The CEO pay is but a consequence of the debt based currency.

""If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered".- Jefferson

Considering what you are railing against, you might want to reread that Jefferson quote a few more times until it finally sinks in.

You're like a doctor giving the flu patient a tissue instead of fighting the very virus that is causing the sickness.


These analogies are old, son.
Jefferson is the most two-faced president we had until the mid 1800s.
Philosophically, he was also wrong quite a bit of the time. In fact, so far, that quotation has been wrong. Let that sink in. But! If I were you, I'd let the wisdom of John Adams sink in a little bit deeper than Jefferson's. If Jefferson had his way, America would have been a French puppet State. True Fact. I'd be stupid to listen to just Jefferson on any subject.


Funkyterrance wrote:Ok, let's look at it from this perspective:
Do you personally buy any products/services from corporate owned companies? Isn't it really consumer buying habits then that are to blame? If nobody bought products/services from corporate owned enterprises there would be no big fat CEO's grubbing all the profits. The low prices gained by the corporate structure are what's attractive to people but then they don't like the consequences of their support. Why is it so easily forgotten that the two things are connected?


Or I could take a knife and go kill the sons-of-bitches like Mary Harris Jones said?! Just because it's an option doesn't make it a good one.
There's no question of who to support anymore. People who make $19K a year don't have any options for where to shop. And in my community, we have Wal*mart, JCP, Walgrens, CVS, F&F, Shop*Ko, Dollar General, Dollar Tree, Cub Foods, Sullivan's Grocery, and Menard's. That's it for 45 miles. All big-chain stores. Our beloved Kmart will be closed by January.

The low prices argument is bullshit. Just because a company has low prices does not mean they get low prices by ripping off their employees and giving the money to the CEO. Like Hostess did. The two things were 'not connected' until recently. That's what's so easily forgotten. Union power peaked in 1970, and this out-of-control CEO pay sh*t didn't start until around '78. And that's not a coincidence. The system didn't work like this until now, and these assholes don't have to continue making more money than God for our country to function. They don't earn this, the workers are the ones who create the wealth.

Example:
Image
this is how it should work.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby patches70 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:15 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:
I'd let the wisdom of John Adams sink in a little bit deeper


John Adams it is, then!


All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation.- John Adams

You, and many many more like you, have no understanding of what our currency is, thus you cannot see how it is a foundation built on sand. It is the root cause, the things you see around you are but a consequence of the debt based currency.

Banks have done more injury to the religion, morality, tranquility, prosperity, and even wealth of the nation than they can have done or ever will do good.- John Adams


John Adams and Jefferson were of a like mind on the issue of a Central Bank that can create our currency.

Like I've maintained, until the debt based currency system is changed, no plan or action will fix these other issues.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby patches70 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:22 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:
Example:
Image
this is how it should work.



LOL.

How hilarious. Jim Sinegal has a net worth of around $2 billion. LMFO!!!!!!

Did you know, well, of course you didn't know, but Mr Sinegel along with the rest of the board of Costco, voted to pay an early dividend check to the shareholders (they are included BTW) before the year is out to avoid the increased taxes on said dividends.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... stpop_read

That is a $3billion Christmas gift that will be taxed at 15% instead of the 43.3% that it would have been taxed come January 1.

Yeah. See how you get played, Juan? Like a fiddle.

WSJ Editorial wrote:One of the biggest dividend winners will be none other than Mr. Sinegal, who owns about two million shares, while his wife owns another 84,669. At $7 a share, the former CEO will take home roughly $14 million. At a 15% tax rate he'll get to keep nearly $12 million of that windfall, while at next year's rate of 43.4% he'd take home only about $8 million. That's a lot of extra cannoli.

This isn't exactly the tone of, er, shared sacrifice that Mr. Sinegal struck on stage in Charlotte. He described Mr. Obama as "a President making an economy built to last," adding that "for companies like Costco to invest, grow, hire and flourish, the conditions have to be right. That requires something from all of us." But apparently $4 million less from Mr. Sinegal.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby patches70 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:30 pm

For the record, it was sort of smart for the Costco board to do this, but what is strange is that dividends are usually paid from earnings.

The $3billion dividend early cashout to avoid the increasing taxes is being financed through a loan. Costco is borrowing $3.5billion to pay this. Sinegal is actually taking on debt to get paid now. This is unusual for companies to do it like this. But hey, it's their company and their money, if that's what they wanna do, more power to them.

But it's funny to see JB put him on some sort of pedestal as he's doing the exact sorts of things that bug him about other CEOs. :lol: :roll:
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:49 am

patches70 wrote:John Adams and Jefferson were of a like mind on the issue of a Central Bank that can create our currency.

Like I've maintained, until the debt based currency system is changed, no plan or action will fix these other issues.

Were they? John Adams was a New Englander and Jefferson was a Virginian slave master. New England joined the war, largely, because of the currency manipulation in New England done by.... the Bank of England. Jefferson, on the other hand, was hugely indebted to the Bank and many others. Before the war would end he would find new creditors in the Netherlands, and later came to despise the Dutch banking system. And again, this is due to their wanting him to repay his debts.
Our Central Bank has kept our nation afloat during times of crisis like the Depression and WWII, and while you might say our Central Bank caused these crises, you cannot deny that without it we would not be the one-world superpower today. I don't know what you're bitching about exactly, probably some gold standard sh*t, but I'm a historian, and you don't know jack, You're quoting without context. Once the war ended, all of our founders except for Washington and Adams turned into b*tchy, two-faced high school girls, all with hidden and mischievous goals.

Furthermore, I'm going to address how we will fix these "other issues" that you haven't laid out. John Adams, with the support of Eldebridge Gerry and others actually designed our system of government so that America's "Natural Aristocracy," would be able to wield great power in the legislative branch, but the Executive branch would allow the people to regain or keep control. It's all laid out in Adams' book on government. There has been a natural cycle of corruption and reemergence since then, just as Adams predicted. Our system is brilliant. Today, obviously, we live in one of those periods where we need to regain control of the legislature.
Now control of wallstreet and the banking cartels would be nice, but as I have worked for banks, I know the goal cannot be to destroy them. and you know that the legislature is the body politic who are supposed to be wrangling the banks in. And yet, I question that you actually have some special insight that I don't have. We've sent Elizabeth Warren to capital hill, and now we are giving her subpena power. My faith, as always, resides in the power and will of the people to move true leaders to the capital. Your soap boxing doesn't appear any different to the soap boxing of the 1930s.

patches70 wrote:How hilarious. Jim Sinegal has a net worth of around $2 billion. LMFO!!!!!!


I actually went with this jpeg because I already knew everything you were going to say. Notice I didn't say anything specific except "this is how it should work."

patches70 wrote:Did you know, well, of course you didn't know, but Mr Sinegel along with the rest of the board of Costco, voted to pay an early dividend check to the shareholders (they are included BTW) before the year is out to avoid the increased taxes on said dividends.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... stpop_read

That is a $3billion Christmas gift that will be taxed at 15% instead of the 43.3% that it would have been taxed come January 1.

Yeah. See how you get played, Juan? Like a fiddle.

I actually did know this, and I don't understand why you think I should have a problem with it? You're juxtaposing and presenting a false image of my ideals. Or to be more clear: you made up some lies about me in your head.
This company isn't giving their board big fat checks by taking money away from their workers, which was the point of my last posts. So while it is a bit sad somehow maybe that they avoided paying triple taxes, they didn't do anything that was illegal or that was outright immoral. I can't even say that it's in the grey area.
You continue to act smugly and condescendingly, but you invented a false version of me and of history to attack and/or support your position. You don't look as smart as you think that you do.
Jenga.
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Re: $168 Per Day

Postby Funkyterrance on Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:14 am

Phatscotty wrote:Maybe other people will start paying more in taxes when those people who are obsessed with other people's money start leading by example. There is nothing courageous or compassionate about lust for other people's money, and is actually probably the greediest thing in our world currently.

Besides, other people paying more in taxes does not fix anything


To be fair I don't get the impression that the proponents of redistribution are envious. It appears they are just disgusted by the bourgeoisie. For what reason is still to be determined.

patches70 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
On the other hand, I was expressing the hope that we would have a systematic change to a state where donation to charitable causes is handled by the government in an ordered manner


Man, the government taking your money without you having a say about it (through taxes) and giving it to charity, is not charity. It's something else all together.

Charity by definition is voluntary. Taxes are not voluntary.
What you are actually talking about is theft.


Taxes are indeed voluntary. Nobody is forcing you to live in the US.


Night Strike wrote: Heck, you all reamed on Mitt Romney, a former CEO, even though he gave something like 20% of his income to charity.


Tax write-offs don't count.
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