French Tax Hike: Taxpayer Equality Fail

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French Tax Hike: Taxpayer Equality Fail

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:41 pm

Jean-Marc Ayrault's outburst came after France's best-known actor, Gerard Dépardieu, took up legal residence in a small village just over the border in Belgium, alongside hundreds of other wealthy French nationals seeking lower taxes. (just Beligium. Thousands more have already fleed France to other "safer" countries.

France's Socialist President Francois Hollande, who famously once declared "I don't like the rich", has pledged to tax annual income of more than one million euros per year at 75 percent.

David Cameron controversially pledged to "roll out the red carpet" for any French residents trying to flee the massive tax hike.

Mr Hollande has since introduced other hefty new charges on capital gains and inheritance, while increasing France's wealth tax and an exit tax for entrepreneurs selling their companies.

Last week, Britons and other owners of second homes in France were told that the value of their properties could collapse after Mr Hollande's government announced a sharp rise in capital gains tax.

While Mr Ayrault opted not to mention Mr Depardieu yesterday, the Gallic star drew fierce criticism from Left-wing politicians and commentators.

Socialist MP Yann Galut called for the actor to be "stripped of his nationality" if he failed to pay his dues in his mother country, saying the law should be changed to enable such a punishment.

Benoît Hamon, the consumption minister, said the move amounted to giving France "the finger" and was "anti-patriotic".

In a stinging editorial, Libération, the left-leaning daily, called him a "drunken, obese petit-bourgeois reactionary". Le Monde mockingly exclaimed: "Bravo l'artiste!", pointing out he had chosen to make his move "on the eve of a national conference on poverty".

Jean-François Copé, chairman of former president Nicolas Sarkozy's UMP party, yesterday said the actor's departure was "terrible for our country and its image" and called on the Socialist government to introduce "progressive fiscal policies".

Mr Depardieu came out in favour of Mr Sarkozy in the his failed re-election bid earlier this year, even appearing in one campaign meeting to say the incumbent had helped him sort out his "business problems".

But Far-Right National Front leader Marine Le Pen said tax exiles like Mr Depardieu wanted to "have their cake and eat it", adding: "All these people general come running back when they have a health problem."

Belgian income and inheritance taxes are lower than in France, and unlike France, Belgium does not impose a tax on personal wealth, making it attractive for entrepreneurs.

Among Mr Depardieu's neighbours in the village of Nechin will be members of the Mulliez family, who own the Auchan supermarket chain.

France's richest man Bernard Arnault admitted this summer that he had applied for Belgian citizenship, although he insisted it had nothing to do with paying lower taxes.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -rich.html
Last edited by Phatscotty on Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:05 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:43 pm

I still like this. It says something about Patriotism.
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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:46 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:I still like this. It says something about Patriotism.


What does it say? What of the Patriotism of Jean-Marc? Look at what he did! The people of France got what they wanted
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Postby 2dimes on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:48 pm

Uh, France has been one of those places where wealthy people from other countries move to avoid taxes.
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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby john9blue on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:50 pm

it's funny how the chest-thumping nationalists in france are the furthest to the left politically.
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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:00 pm

If only France has passed slavery and banned all foreign travel first, and then sought to raise taxes to 75% on the rich.....

Almost got em!
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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby Iliad on Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:40 pm

Most ironic use of Pink Floyd's Money I've seen.
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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby betiko on Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:56 am

ok to be clear: there has been tax evasion waaay before that, and that is the typical sensationalist bs article for outsiders who don't know what is really going on. The real question would be how many households have moved out of france since hollande is president due to tax reasons, and how many did the years before. So many rich french live in switzerland, belgium or other neighbouring countries for tax reasons. Depardieu is just a mediatic case that has become "the french in general".
75% for income over the million is ridiculous but not implemented yet, and this government is ridiculous I agree on that.
Copé is not the chairman of the UMP by the way; there is still an internal war after the election of the new chairman of the party. Copé was facing Fillion (french prime minister during Sarkozy) and the result was something like 92 260 votes vs 92 200, Copé claims he won but Fillon says there were some infractions in some vote offices and also they forgot to count new caledonia and other small islands. It's been like a month since they are torning appart. I believe Copé to be a cheating bitch, they might do a second vote. the whole situation is ridiculous.

And yes, here the nationalists are extreme right (like in most countries) but it's funny because the idiots that vote extreme left can vote extreme right for the next elections. There should be tests to check if people have the mental capacity to vote...
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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby Night Strike on Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:00 am

How is it tax evasion to move to a country that has a lower tax rate? Tax evasion means you aren't paying the amount of taxes you owe to the government. If you no longer live in that country, you don't owe the government that money, therefore you aren't committing tax evasion.
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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby comic boy on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:32 am

Night Strike wrote:How is it tax evasion to move to a country that has a lower tax rate? Tax evasion means you aren't paying the amount of taxes you owe to the government. If you no longer live in that country, you don't owe the government that money, therefore you aren't committing tax evasion.


You are being pedantic but frankly I dont blame anybody who evades paying a ridiculously high tax rate.
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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby betiko on Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:24 am

Night Strike wrote:How is it tax evasion to move to a country that has a lower tax rate? Tax evasion means you aren't paying the amount of taxes you owe to the government. If you no longer live in that country, you don't owe the government that money, therefore you aren't committing tax evasion.


If it's not the expression used in english, it is the one you use in france. It's called tax evasion because basically people use a most usually phony principal residence in a foreign country (as you pay your taxes in your country of residence, determined by your principal residence). You have to justify that this is the house where you live most of the year. People often let the electricity on all year long ect in the foreign residence to pretend to be there most of the time showing electricity bills when in fact they still live in france most of the time. So yes, it is fraud, and as far as I know this happens in most of the countries.
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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:30 pm

What's the problem? Hollande says he doesn't like the rich. Gets the rich to move out of his country. Seems like success to me.
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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby spurgistan on Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:04 pm

john9blue wrote:it's funny how the chest-thumping nationalists in france are the furthest to the left politically.


Well, their national anthem is both an intensely emotional piece of music and a popular choice among radical revolutionaries, so there's that.
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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby SvenTveskägg on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:46 pm

... ... ?
How much do you make to think 2 500 000 euro after taxes is unreasonable low?
edit: I mean the taxrate is insane becouse manny employers are exploiting their workers insanely much.
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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:03 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:What's the problem? Hollande says he doesn't like the rich. Gets the rich to move out of his country. Seems like success to me.


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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby betiko on Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:39 am

SvenTveskägg wrote:... ... ?
How much do you make to think 2 500 000 euro after taxes is unreasonable low?
edit: I mean the taxrate is insane becouse manny employers are exploiting their workers insanely much.


(i know this is not your question but I just wanted to clear something out)

If someone makes 2,5 millions gross he is not making 625 000€ net with that system he is making more.
I don't know the whole calculation for the first million, it will go by trenches and the last one will be 50% from I don't know what sum till the million. It was impossible before to tax over 50% for any slice of revenue.

About hollande telling he doesn't like rich people, it was during a tv debate in 2006 when a UMP (right party) was telling him all his ideas were going against middle classes and that he only cared for poor people, that's when he replied that.
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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby SvenTveskägg on Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:27 am

I figured.
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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:39 pm

So what happens when all the rich people leave the country? Is France similar to America, in that the rich people pay all the taxes? (In America, the top 5% pay over 60% of the tax burden)
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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby betiko on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:36 pm

Phatscotty wrote:So what happens when all the rich people leave the country? Is France similar to America, in that the rich people pay all the taxes? (In America, the top 5% pay over 60% of the tax burden)


taxes paid by citizens represent only 18% of the government's income, company taxes represent 17% and 52% comes from VAT and he is raising the VAT rate. Rich people paying their taxes in other countries doesn't represent a lot of the government's income, it's more about the bad image. The government's income are increasing.
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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:38 pm

betiko wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:So what happens when all the rich people leave the country? Is France similar to America, in that the rich people pay all the taxes? (In America, the top 5% pay over 60% of the tax burden)


taxes paid by citizens represent only 18% of the government's income, company taxes represent 17% and 52% comes from VAT and he is raising the VAT rate. Rich people paying their taxes in other countries doesn't represent a lot of the government's income, it's more about the bad image. The government's income are increasing.


But many rich people own companies, and almost all rich people pay the VAT tax right?
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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby betiko on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:54 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
betiko wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:So what happens when all the rich people leave the country? Is France similar to America, in that the rich people pay all the taxes? (In America, the top 5% pay over 60% of the tax burden)


taxes paid by citizens represent only 18% of the government's income, company taxes represent 17% and 52% comes from VAT and he is raising the VAT rate. Rich people paying their taxes in other countries doesn't represent a lot of the government's income, it's more about the bad image. The government's income are increasing.


But many rich people own companies, and almost all rich people pay the VAT tax right?


well, if they are fiscally elsewhere they can still own a company in france that pays company taxes in france and employs people paying french taxes... their company pays french VAT as well. If they falsely live in a foreign country, they will mostly spend their money in france (and they will have more money given that they are paying less direct taxes) and anything they spend in france will be submitted to french VAT as well.

Anyway, the image that this article is trying to give is that all of a sudden the french/swiss border looks like this, withrich french running for their lives!

Image

You are aware that most of the people that earn 1M+ have fiscal advisors that know exactly how to dodge those things anyway right?
Like we have Investment funds from Qatar that have bought the PSG a year ago. Last summer they bought a world class player (Zlatan Ibrahimovic) who has a yearly salary of 14M euros NET after taxes as per his contract. I'm pretty sure they are going to pay part of his salary through shady companies fiscally in other coutries ect, and not everything here as otherwise what they expected to pay him and what they would actually need to pay once this mesure is in place is a huuuuge differece!
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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:57 pm

betiko wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
betiko wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:So what happens when all the rich people leave the country? Is France similar to America, in that the rich people pay all the taxes? (In America, the top 5% pay over 60% of the tax burden)


taxes paid by citizens represent only 18% of the government's income, company taxes represent 17% and 52% comes from VAT and he is raising the VAT rate. Rich people paying their taxes in other countries doesn't represent a lot of the government's income, it's more about the bad image. The government's income are increasing.


But many rich people own companies, and almost all rich people pay the VAT tax right?


well, if they are fiscally elsewhere they can still own a company in france that pays company taxes in france and employs people paying french taxes... their company pays french VAT as well. If they falsely live in a foreign country, they will mostly spend their money in france (and they will have more money given that they are paying less direct taxes) and anything they spend in france will be submitted to french VAT as well.

Anyway, the image that this article is trying to give is that all of a sudden the french/swiss border looks like this, withrich french running for their lives!

Image

You are aware that most of the people that earn 1M+ have fiscal advisors that know exactly how to dodge those things anyway right?
Like we have Investment funds from Qatar that have bought the PSG a year ago. Last summer they bought a world class player (Zlatan Ibrahimovic) who has a yearly salary of 14M euros NET after taxes as per his contract. I'm pretty sure they are going to pay part of his salary through shady companies fiscally in other coutries ect, and not everything here.


Sure I am aware that most of the people that earn 1M+ have fiscal advisors that know exactly how to dodge those things. It sounds and looks like the Socialist President of France is not aware. So why even pass the tax hikes then? It's an even bigger clusterfuck if the taxes won't be enforced, and a bunch of wealthy people still leave, right?

What is the purpose of the tax hike in the first place then if everyone can get around it?
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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby betiko on Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:09 am

populism. French people are a bunch of jealous fucks who hate to see their neighbour do well. If someone makes good money in france, there is always going to be a bunch of haters to say that it isn't money well deserved compared to a blue collar and blablabla.
People here forget how well you live being poor, with the best free health care service in the world and wellfare for every god damn thing. But of course it's never enough, and unions in public services make 2/3 strikes a year asking for impossible things because they are unable to realize what adds up or not.

What frightens me most is to lose competitivity and that foreign companies will have more and more problems investing in france because of the labor cost; the difficulties we will have in with exportations ect.
Right now there is a big thing here because they are closing some big steal foundries when last year the Indian owner (Arcelor Mittal) promised they would keep it open. How can a European country be competitive now a days in this type of industries?
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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:11 am

betiko wrote:populism. French people are a bunch of jealous fucks who hate to see their neighbour do well. If someone makes good money in france, there is always going to be a bunch of haters to say that it isn't money well deserved compared to a blue collar and blablabla.
People here forget how well you live being poor, with the best free health care service in the world and wellfare for every god damn thing. But of course it's never enough, and unions in public services make 2/3 strikes a year asking for impossible things because they are unable to realize what adds up or not.

What frightens me most is to lose competitivity and that foreign companies will have more and more problems investing in france because of the labor cost; the difficulties we will have in with exportations ect.
Right now there is a big thing here because they are closing some big steal foundries when last year the Indian owner (Arcelor Mittal) promised they would keep it open. How can a European country be competitive now a days in this type of industries?


that was exactly the answer I was hoping you would give. That it makes voters "feel better", but does not actually accomplish anything, and actually does damage long term.
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Re: France Taxes Rich: Results Are In

Postby betiko on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:08 am

Well, it's like when you ask for the president to earn less money. Is this really something that will change much in budget cuts? it's just to satisfy the idiotic part of the population. Then you have useless projects to change the location of a train station for example that cost billions and that just there to satisfy the need of popularity of a given mayor and that are not looked that much into. So many things are irrational, and I'm not talking only in france this happens everywhere. Politics have to deal with the stupidity of their populations to get their votes by being irrational. And you will always be unpopular no matter what you do. I think that there should be some "idiot certifications" and remove the right to vote for those people who have absolutely no idea of what is going on and that just vote for the one who looks like "the nicest person".
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