An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

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What are the facts? Please keep an open mind and read the article first before casting your vote.

While there is certainly proof that mutations do occur in nature; There is absolutely no real evidence to support the theory of evolution at this time (for over the past 150 years of "Dino-digging"). Including the sedimentary column.
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There probably is evidence to support this theory, yet scientist are at a loss to explain it appropriately.
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Scientist are great at making shit up when they have no evidence to prove something that is false to begin with.
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12%
I believe in Santa. He's a real person that lives all the way deep at the north pole and brings me presents every year. The presents prove that he's real. I also leave him milk and cookies to snack on and while I don't ever see him, I just know with all my heart, that he is the one who eats all the cookies and milk. Or, I wish I had a dogasaur like Dino.
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Total votes : 65

Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby comic boy on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:04 pm

Symmetry wrote:TLDR: Viceroy hasn't read Darwin, equates Darwin's theories with modern evolutionary theory. Next up, Viceroy takes on the "Newtonists", or as people with a degree of sense call them, Physicists.


I actually started laughing whilst reading his last post , surely nobody is that dense , definitely a Troll.
Im a TOFU miSfit
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Juan_Bottom on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:49 pm

You don't need intermediate species to prove evolution. And Evolution doesn't hinge on intermediate species. Evolution would still be true if you had no fossils. They're just bonus' for paleontologists. Biologists have proven evolution in the lab, and so have botanists. Zoologists have proven it in the wild.
Oh, and whatever those bacteria scientists are called... because you all remember the 90,000 generation E. Coli lab experiment that produced new bacterias. Those guys proved it too.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby crispybits on Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:29 pm

Regardless of whether we need them or not, they have them:

http://ncse.com/rncse/20/5/origin-whale ... t-evidence
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:11 pm

Symmetry wrote:TLDR: Viceroy hasn't read Darwin, equates Darwin's theories with modern evolutionary theory. Next up, Viceroy takes on the "Newtonists", or as people with a degree of sense call them, Physicists.


It is rather interesting that lay people are perfectly willing to challenge professional scientists in exactly three disciplines (evolution, global warming and the Moon landings) but conveniently don't seem to find fault in the work of other professional scientists.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Neoteny on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:51 am

Immunology and "Western medicine" are often targets too.
Napoleon Ier wrote:You people need to grow up to be honest.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby DoomYoshi on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:01 am

Darwin also said that heredity is passed on by gemmules in the blood a la Lamarck. Obviously he wasn't right about everything. The whole point is that theories do evolve as new evidence is presented.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby DoomYoshi on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:03 am

In any case Steve jones also has a rather famous lecture entitled "Why creationism is wrong and evolution is right".
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby betiko on Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:17 am

Neoteny wrote:Immunology and "Western medicine" are often targets too.


western medecine shouldn't even exist, it's going against god's will to cure people!!! :lol: :lol:
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:32 am

_sabotage_ wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote::


The idea of where life started and how it has progressed has nothing to do with the question of God?

The Bible does not give exact details of how life formed. It is not, never was intended to be a scientific text. Further, you can go back into ancient Judaic text, arguments and find that there has always been a scientific-type question about life' s origin. The days referred to in the Bible are not humanitie's day, based on the Earth circiling the sun (a sun that did not exist until creation had begun), they are God's days. How old is the Earth, etc are all questions not answered specifically in the Bible. Scholars have come up with many answers. In ancient times, they did not even really have the concept of millions, never mind the idea that the world could be billions of years old. It was 3, meaning many and "thousands" sort of like we now, today use the term "millions" to mean a huge number past counting, not a specific number.. though it can also be a specific number.
_sabotage_ wrote:Similar to the below quoted comments of ComicBoy, you are trying to quantify and split things into groups which cannot be split. I think it's quite basic that if there is no God or Gods, as some will have it, then He/She/They could not have had a hand in creation. Whereas if there is a God/s it would be difficult to say that our beginnings and continuation were without a contribution from such a source.

If that were true, then why is it that almost all Jews accept evolution? Nothing about Evolutionary theory denies God, though some folks do try to make that claim ... some people make all kinds of claims.

Despite what you seem to have been taught, most people within Christianity actually have no problem with evolution, and in the US, most people who accept evolution also accept God (though not all are Christian). The Bible declares that God made everything. Evolution talks about the method that God might have used.

And... well, feel free to oppose the evidence that exist. As has been said many times, there could be other theories, but you have not provided anything to counter it, except your personnal belief that is very much opposed by most scholars within Christianity. In fact, its basically one group.. led by Dr Morris ,that oppose it.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:46 am

Haggis_McMutton wrote:I don't have time to play "beat up the fundie" just now, but I wanna mention something.

Viceroy posted some of this junk in the religon thread. I actually debunked every point.(I was bored)
He said: "I won't answer to that, it's too much work, I don't spend my evenings doing this blahbahblah".

2 weeks later he has now written what? like 20k words espousing more bullshit theories in this new thread ?

You've got to understand people, this is how the creationists "debate". They throw 100 bullshit claims at the wall, they then ignore the 95 that get refuted and claim that because 5 of them cannot at the present be expressly refuted they must be right. If pressed they will simply throw 100 more bullshit claims at the wall. Just read a couple pages of the Lionz stuff, it's exactly the same.

Essentially they are this:
Image

I mean, if you enjoy continuously beating down the doll only to watch it pop back up and pretend nothing happened, then by all means. (I know I enjoy it too sometimes). Just thought I'd point out that the chances of a fundie actually acknowledging they MIGHT be wrong are basically nil. (otherwise they wouldn't be a fundie in the first place)

Yes, you have hit the nail on the head.

Unfortunately, these folks and these ideas are permeating US society in ways that most people don't realize. They are influencing our children's education, denegrating it at a time when they need more and better understanding of ALL science, but particularly biology and natural resources.

Don't give up. You can stop debating a particular person, sure, but keep your eyes and ears pealed for others. This battle is far too important. Don't be drawn into a "Christianity or no" question, either, unless you come from a position of faith.. you will do more harm than good. This debate is not about Christianity. It is about truth and honesty. The young Earthers are lying... we don't need to attack faith. I have the same faith. I just accept that people can lie. I accept the Bible is truth, but people can distort it heavily. Science is not perfect, either, of course, but it is a process. It is a process that leads to truth, an so far, nothing the young earthers have come up with comes anywhere close.
Last edited by PLAYER57832 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:56 am

Viceroy63 wrote: And so is the manager of the museum or the scientist who knows better really going to hurt his own wallet by disclosing the true facts? I don't think so.

Interesting theory, but where is your proof?

In particular, where is your proof that the evidence all these evil museums present is false?

See, you can come up with all the ideas you want, all the reasons to explain why any scientific exibit might be flase, but it means nothing unless you can show that the information truly IS false.

Oh, and your assumption that everyone here has just learned all this in museums is just plain false. Anyone can go out and find, discover fossils. We can all certainly observe the striations of cut banks, see volcanic activity and its result.. if we travel. We can see the evidence of long-standing erosion in places like the Grand Canyon, see upbuilding in places like Lava beds national monument, see erosion on almost any hillside, particularly any CA beach. We can see links between animal types, even now, genetic links and histories.

So, again... if you have the vaunted evidence against all that.. please do show it. BUT, note, one thing you have greatly misunderstood. While we tend to speak of the "theory of Evolution" as if it were one, unified theory, it is really many, many theories put together.

The overall theory is that life changes over time. The nyou have a whole bunch of theories about how that actually happens. As you have noted, there are quite a few places where we know little about the line of descent or where there are big controversies. But, you ignore the fact that we also have quite a few pretty clear lines. Fish, not surprisingly, provide a pretty decent picture of many segnments.

Also, you confuse pieces of the concept. The overall idea, that species change over time, is actually NOT theory, it is actually proven fact. Species do change over time. All the details of how we got each species is definitely not proven, but disputing parts and pieces of that don't come close to disabusing the basic idea that species do change over time. Ironically, though you dispute it, the facts are so firm that even young earthers now have to admit this bit. Tehy just try to claim it is something other than evolution, refer to terms like "microevolution". You can talk all you want about "microevolution" or whatever new phrase young earthers have come up with to try and claim that the evidence we show is not really evidence, but that is a fiction they have created. Its like the claim that because we still have horseshoe crabs and other ancient species evolution did not happen. We have them, but we also have many species that are not the same as what existed before.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:59 am

DoomYoshi wrote:I have enough time to verify that what scientists say is correct. In fact, most of my non-CC time is spent doing just that.

Also, metsfan, evolution is a fact.

When a bacterium in a hospital all of a sudden becomes antibiotic resistant, that is evolution. It happens, we have seen it happen. Evolution is a word to describe a process which we know exists. Perhaps you could argue that evolution from a common ancestor is a theory, but I don't have any more time for this stupid thread.

Sorry, but you, too are confusing the issue.

The basic idea that species change over time IS fact. However, most lines of evidence regarding specific descent are not. Be very, very careful in your terms. Just like in a court of law, the words you use can be used against you.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:45 am

Viceroy63 wrote:
Yes; I agree that all elephants are part of the same family and that it is obvious. These are examples of mutations but not evolution. When you show me an elephant with wings then we would have found an intermediate species between the elephant and some bird family creature.


This type of "argument" is part of why young Earthers are laughed at in any credible scientific circle. Life doesn't have any such preset requirements. Science observes what IS and what WAS, not what we think "should" be.

Why would an elephant develop wings? Might make a nice story, but in real life mutations happen and whether a mutation continues on and is replicated in progeny is complicated. A lot of whether a particular trait survives or not has to do with luck, part (ONLY part!) is what is called "natural selection", where a superior trait gives one animal an advantage over another.

BUT.. and this is very, very important. The significance/importance of luck versus increase in survivability has a lot to do with conditions.

Let's take a simplistic example. When food is plentiful, etc the biggest "baddest" buck will tend to outfight the smaller scrawny bucks and get more does... passing on more genes. A gene that prmotes big size and strength, then will tend to be perpetuated. BUT.... in the real world there are complications. A bigger buck, for example, might have a body type that creates bigger muscle, but it might also require more food. A smaller, scrawnier buck might survive better in harsh times, times of drought and poor food. OR, that "scrawny" little buck might be somehow faster... and say, able to "sneak in" and "do his thing" whilst the bigger bucks are fighting, then sneak off unnoticed. Nothing in nature is simple, certainly not as simple or stupid as claiming that unless elephants can fly evolution isn't happening!!!

Viceroy63 wrote:

But you can not present any intermediate creatures because there are none. You would think, as I noted in my article, that if evolution takes millions of years of gradual changes for one type of creature to become another, that there would be plenty of examples of this intermediate creature found in the fossil records.

[sigh]
I already mentioned the T-rex. T-rex progeny in their eggs have rudimentary feathers. Also, the T-Rex is moving from being a 4 legged creature to a 2 legged one.

There is also the Ceolocanth, hagfish, etc.

Here is a wikkipedia article on this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tr ... al_fossils
I will quote the introduction because it bring up some important points:

Possibly the best known of all transitional fossils, the Berlin specimen of Archaeopteryx lithographicaThis is a tentative list of transitional fossils (fossil remains of a creature that exhibits primitive traits in comparison with more derived organisms to which it is related). The fossils are listed in series, showing the transition from one group to another, representing significant steps in the evolution of major features in various lines. These changes often represent major changes in anatomy, related to mode of life, like the acquisition of feathered wings for an aerial lifestyle in birds, or legs in the fish/tetrapod transition. As noted already by Darwin, the fossil record is incomplete.[1]

Ideally, this list would only recursively include 'true' transitionals, fossils representing ancestral species from which later groups evolved, but most if not all, of the fossils shown here represent extinct side branches, more or less closely related to the true ancestor.[2] They will all include details unique to their own line as well. Fossils having relatively few such traits are termed "transitional", while those with a host of traits found neither in the ancestral or derived group are called "intermediate". Since all species will always be subject to natural selection, the very term "transitional fossil" is essentially a misconception. It is however a commonly used term and a useful concept in evolutionary biology. The fossils listed represent significant steps in the evolution of major features in various lines and therefore fit the common usage of the phrase.


See, the problem is not that transitions don't exist, its that you have somehow been led to believe that they "ought" to be something other than what they are. Its really like people who envision God to be some kind of giant Santa, and say that because he did not answer this or that request, there is no God. God is far more complex than that. God's creations are also far more complex and the creation far more involved than humans can, even now readily imagine.

Viceroy63 wrote:
Does it not seem too selective that only a certainly family of creature is found among the fossil records and no intermediate creatures?

To say that means you have ignored vast realms of evidence. You can believe whatever you wish when you ignore reality.

Science requires that you ACKNOWLEDGE reality, accept and deal with even those result you dislike.

We present you with pictures, data and you just say "eh... its fake". That's an easy, lazy response. If you want reality, then show us something that actually supports any idea you have. Don't just claim all our evidence is non-existant.

Oh, yeah.. and this evidence isn't just found in isolated, lofty museums, it is found in virtually EVERY museum (except, of course, the creationist one), AND it is readily observable. Also, you have here several who have direct knowledge and experience.

If you wish to claim that every one of us is just lying... well..... your words speak for themselves dishonesty doesn't require justification. Only truth sets those requirements. So, well, when you come in and claim everything we say is false, and present nothing of your own except to just say "its wrong"... well, guess who really looks the liar!
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Viceroy63 on Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:25 pm

crispybits wrote:Regardless of whether we need them or not, they have them:

http://ncse.com/rncse/20/5/origin-whale ... t-evidence


Sorry to take so long to get back to you but there is only one of me and many people that respond so I can't get to everyone at the same time. Especially because I do read what others post like that website about the whales. I read that but they really did not present any evidence in the way of a transitional species. They only remarked the relationship between mammals of Sea and Land creatures.

Yes they presented what they called evidence but again it was nothing conclusive but mere coincidence. That same argument can be used to say that mammals on land evolved from whales but since the theory of evolution has already used the dinosaur to explain mammals then they can't very well use Whale at the same time now can they? I don't know why people don't get it that scientist are making this up as they go along.

Before anyone starts saying that I am attacking scientist and science everywhere let me just say, I am not. But when it comes to the Darwinian theory of evolution that life on this planet arose from lower life forms, that is a flat out lie and it is a documented fact that every single piece of evidence that these evolutionist scientist have put forth in support of the theory of evolution, has either been a terribly bad misrepresentation or a flat out fabrication.

You stated that, "Regardless of whether we need them or not, they have them:" but I ask you to think about this for just a minute. This argument over the transitional species has been going on for over 150 years now. Since Darwin first wrote his book, "The Origin of Species." Why then was not the first person to discover the transitional species between any two species, awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for an outstanding scientific achievement? Don't you think that such a find of the century, merits such acknowledgment and appreciation?

Yet to my knowledge, no Nobel prize was ever awarded to any paleontologist or Archeologist past or present for finding the missing link that proves beyond any shadow of a doubt, the theory of evolution. If they did then it would no longer be considered a "Theory" now would it? Yet science news is constantly broadcasting how some new piece of information or discovery may prove that evolution is correct but then we all learn that it was just a hoax.

One after another, after another, after another, they all turn out to be hoaxes or misrepresentations. Yet PBS and others do documentaries on this subject all the time. National Geographic is famous for constantly doing articles on these hoaxes before we learn the truth. Perhaps a good question is why don't National Geographic better research the source? Or are they are just in it for the money? Hmmm! :?:

Image

In a really long article by Jonathan Wells, Ph.D. said... And please notice that in every response I quote what others, Professionals are saying and not my words alone. Those who ask me what evidence I present to support my OP, obviously have not read it or any of the comments that I present as evidence or they would have noted all the different quotations.

"As someone with a Berkeley Ph.D. in biology, I dispute Quammen's characterization of Darwin's doubters as confused and ignorant. On the contrary, Quammen's article makes it abundantly clear why it is quite reasonable to doubt Darwinism: The evidence for it is "underwhelming," at best."
-Jonathan Wells, Ph.D.
Senior Fellow, Center for Science and Culture
Discovery Institute
(http://www.discovery.org/a/2292)

But lets get back on track shall we. The horse evolution example, a total fabrication. The Lucy evolution of a homo-erectus/Ape, was really part modern human and part modern ape which some one failed to noticed but it did eventually get found out. And then there is this Whale which is more of a coincidence than a fact. And so it goes with every example that evolutionist science claim to support the theory of evolution.

I mean just think of it? According to evolution, all life began in a primordial soup of hydrogen based and other matters. Those cells that grouped together for protection became the first organism to form. The need to feed gave rise to adaptations like tentacles or the ability to move about. Eventually they learned to swim forming the first multiple organ species.

Notice that each time a evolutionary event occurs the creature is adding something more to itself that it did not have before. This is the best description of a true intermediate species. You have an ape and then you have an ape that walks upright and that means he doesn't climb trees to well. And then you have a modern man that doesn't climb trees at all and walks upright. Now back to the story of evolution...

When in lakes or waterholes the water dried up some fish, out of a need to survive formed a kind of lung in order to breath until the waters came back. Eventually some of these lung fish never returned to the water and form the many different forms of life that we see today. That's the gist of it any way. It was always out of some need to feed or survive.

Now we are expected to believe that the whale actually evolved from land mammals who found the waters more enticing as a food source? isn't that like reverse evolution? They can't make up their minds which is better for survival, in the water, out of the water? But they still can't find a missing link between the two! Or explain why the food source in the water was better than on land at the time?

Do you know what a theory really is? A possible explanation. And that is all. It's not real and it's not fact and it's not evidence. The moment that evidence is found to support the possible explanation then it ceases to be a theory or possible explanation and becomes, an explanation. I have a theory that life was created on this planet. That's my possible explanation and the fossil records like the Cambrian Explosion for example would tend to support my theory. But my theory will never be taught in schools and universities across America as factual evidence, as the theory of evolution is, because the constitution separates Church and State.

But fiction such as the whale evolving from land mammal and no intermediate species has been found, to support that, Oh well, that is taught and accepted as fact???



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nS-RifoPFA

To MeDeFe:

Darwinian evolution is what Charles Darwin proposed as an explanation for the diversity of life on the planet. It's what he wrote. He made the rules. Now, because Darwinian evolution can't be proven it's evolved to include other explanations? And to what point do we continue this evolution of a theory? When will we accept that the Theory of evolution does not explain the diversity of life on the planet? Rather than to continue to make adaptations to the theory to include new data and findings?

You also missed the point that I made. Allow me to say it again below...

"As someone with a Berkeley Ph.D. in biology, I dispute Quammen's characterization of Darwin's doubters as confused and ignorant. On the contrary, Quammen's article makes it abundantly clear why it is quite reasonable to doubt Darwinism: The evidence for it is "underwhelming," at best."
-Jonathan Wells, Ph.D.
Senior Fellow, Center for Science and Culture
Discovery Institute
(http://www.discovery.org/a/2292)

And notice who is stating that?

As I see it the only evolution going on here, is the continuing and ever evolving theory of the theory of evolution.
Last edited by Viceroy63 on Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:44 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby MeDeFe on Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:06 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:Now we are expected to believe that the whale actually evolved from land mammals who found the waters more enticing as a food source?

Yes, basically.

isn't that like reverse evolution?

No.

They can't make up their minds which is better for survival, in the water, out of the water?

Where and how survival is easiest depends on circumstances, and circumstances can and do change. It's called "evolutionary pressure" iirc.



Your main problem is that you think evolution should be like a lot of parallel lines, neatly progressing from one species through intermediate forms to another species. It's actually closer to a big ball of wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff.
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