An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

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What are the facts? Please keep an open mind and read the article first before casting your vote.

While there is certainly proof that mutations do occur in nature; There is absolutely no real evidence to support the theory of evolution at this time (for over the past 150 years of "Dino-digging"). Including the sedimentary column.
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There probably is evidence to support this theory, yet scientist are at a loss to explain it appropriately.
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26%
Scientist are great at making shit up when they have no evidence to prove something that is false to begin with.
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12%
I believe in Santa. He's a real person that lives all the way deep at the north pole and brings me presents every year. The presents prove that he's real. I also leave him milk and cookies to snack on and while I don't ever see him, I just know with all my heart, that he is the one who eats all the cookies and milk. Or, I wish I had a dogasaur like Dino.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Viceroy63 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:44 am

You are right about the article not making any argument against the theory of evolution but what does that say about all that supposedly evidence that presents evolution as a true fact. Children in schools open up their text books and learn that this is how the birds came to be and then they see a picture of an ape evolving into a man and are taught that this is how man came to be when none of that is true. It's a theory but they are not taught it as theory. "Evidence" is presented and young minds accept it.

I'm just saying, where is all the fossil evidence at? There is more evidence in the Bible version of creation then in the theory of evolution. If something is not true, why teach it? If you present something as true when it is not then it's a lie. Plain and simple. This article is really explaining that what we have been taught and are still being taught about the birds being living dinosaurs is a lie and that's all. So basically tax dollars go to teaching children, lie's.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Symmetry on Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:52 am

Viceroy63 wrote:You are right about the article not making any argument against the theory of evolution but what does that say about all that supposedly evidence that presents evolution as a true fact. Children in schools open up their text books and learn that this is how the birds came to be and then they see a picture of an ape evolving into a man and are taught that this is how man came to be when none of that is true. It's a theory but they are not taught it as theory. "Evidence" is presented and young minds accept it.

I'm just saying, where is all the fossil evidence at? There is more evidence in the Bible version of creation then in the theory of evolution. If something is not true, why teach it? If you present something as true when it is not then it's a lie. Plain and simple. This article is really explaining that what we have been taught and are still being taught about the birds being living dinosaurs is a lie and that's all. So basically tax dollars go to teaching children, lie's.


You can find a fossil of an archeopteyrx in many museums. They're up for public view.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby betiko on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:10 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:You are right about the article not making any argument against the theory of evolution but what does that say about all that supposedly evidence that presents evolution as a true fact. Children in schools open up their text books and learn that this is how the birds came to be and then they see a picture of an ape evolving into a man and are taught that this is how man came to be when none of that is true. It's a theory but they are not taught it as theory. "Evidence" is presented and young minds accept it.

I'm just saying, where is all the fossil evidence at? There is more evidence in the Bible version of creation then in the theory of evolution. If something is not true, why teach it? If you present something as true when it is not then it's a lie. Plain and simple. This article is really explaining that what we have been taught and are still being taught about the birds being living dinosaurs is a lie and that's all. So basically tax dollars go to teaching children, lie's.


dude, you are too stubornly stupid. The theory of evolution is what is the most likely and logical, have your own beliefs but what we have absolutely no proof of is your gibberish. There are many religions/sects out there each claiming to know "the truth" based on their folklorical beliefs. Why don't we teach reincarnation in biology classes instead of scientific discoveries?
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby crispybits on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:19 pm

I know I said I wouldnt feed the troll, but...

A lie-to-children, sometimes referred to as a Wittgenstein's ladder, is an expression that describes the simplification of technical or difficult-to-understand material for consumption by children. The word "children" should not be taken literally, but as encompassing anyone in the process of learning about a given topic, regardless of age. It is itself a simplification of certain concepts in the philosophy of science.

Because life and its aspects can be extremely difficult to understand without experience, to present a full level of complexity to a student or child all at once can be overwhelming. Hence elementary explanations tend to be simple, concise, or simply "wrong" — but in a way that attempts to make the lesson more understandable. Sometimes the lesson can be qualified, for example by claiming "this isn't technically true, but it's easier to understand". In retrospect the first explanation may be easy to understand for its inaccuracies, but it will be replaced with a more sophisticated explanation which is closer to "the truth". This "tender introduction" concept is an important aspect of education.

Such statements are not usually intended as deceptions, and may, in fact, be true to a first approximation or within certain contexts. For example Newtonian mechanics, by modern standards, is factually incorrect, as it fails to take into account relativity or quantum mechanics, but it is still a valuable and valid approximation to those theories in many situations.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby comic boy on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:27 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:You are right about the article not making any argument against the theory of evolution but what does that say about all that supposedly evidence that presents evolution as a true fact. Children in schools open up their text books and learn that this is how the birds came to be and then they see a picture of an ape evolving into a man and are taught that this is how man came to be when none of that is true. It's a theory but they are not taught it as theory. "Evidence" is presented and young minds accept it.

I'm just saying, where is all the fossil evidence at? There is more evidence in the Bible version of creation then in the theory of evolution. If something is not true, why teach it? If you present something as true when it is not then it's a lie. Plain and simple. This article is really explaining that what we have been taught and are still being taught about the birds being living dinosaurs is a lie and that's all. So basically tax dollars go to teaching children, lie's.


I asked before but you dodged it, I shall try again; You argue that because there is not 100% proof for the theory of evolution that it is a lie , but you claim there is a God despite there being no proof, zilch , nothing at all. Why are you not consistent , why are you such a hypocrite, why are you happy that your church peddles an obvious lie to children ?
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:44 pm

crispybits wrote:I know I said I wouldnt feed the troll, but...

A lie-to-children, sometimes referred to as a Wittgenstein's ladder, is an expression that describes the simplification of technical or difficult-to-understand material for consumption by children. The word "children" should not be taken literally, but as encompassing anyone in the process of learning about a given topic, regardless of age. It is itself a simplification of certain concepts in the philosophy of science.

Because life and its aspects can be extremely difficult to understand without experience, to present a full level of complexity to a student or child all at once can be overwhelming. Hence elementary explanations tend to be simple, concise, or simply "wrong" — but in a way that attempts to make the lesson more understandable. Sometimes the lesson can be qualified, for example by claiming "this isn't technically true, but it's easier to understand". In retrospect the first explanation may be easy to understand for its inaccuracies, but it will be replaced with a more sophisticated explanation which is closer to "the truth". This "tender introduction" concept is an important aspect of education.

Such statements are not usually intended as deceptions, and may, in fact, be true to a first approximation or within certain contexts. For example Newtonian mechanics, by modern standards, is factually incorrect, as it fails to take into account relativity or quantum mechanics, but it is still a valuable and valid approximation to those theories in many situations.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children


This is exactly correct. I wouldn't even call it lying. I would say that science education is a series of building better approximations to reality.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby AAFitz on Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:28 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:You are right about the article not making any argument against the theory of evolution but what does that say about all that supposedly evidence that presents evolution as a true fact.


That it is a true fact.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby AAFitz on Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:30 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:You are right about the article not making any argument against the theory of evolution but what does that say about all that supposedly evidence that presents evolution as a true fact. Children in schools open up their text books and learn that this is how the birds came to be and then they see a picture of an ape evolving into a man and are taught that this is how man came to be when none of that is true. It's a theory but they are not taught it as theory. "Evidence" is presented and young minds accept it.

I'm just saying, where is all the fossil evidence at? There is more evidence in the Bible version of creation then in the theory of evolution. If something is not true, why teach it? If you present something as true when it is not then it's a lie. Plain and simple. This article is really explaining that what we have been taught and are still being taught about the birds being living dinosaurs is a lie and that's all. So basically tax dollars go to teaching children, lie's.


No, our tax dollars are going to help insure they don't end up as uneducated as you.

You are an adult, so you can choose to live in your delusional world, and thats fine, but we owe it to children to teach them the actual reality of the world, so they have a fighting chance of surviving in it. If you choose to misinform your child, that is your right, but at least they will have had access to reality, before you've corrupted them with insanity.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby AAFitz on Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:38 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:Feathered fossil proves that birds did not evolve from dinosaurs
By Steve Connor , Science Editor
The Independent News Paper
(http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 13382.html)

A foot-long lizard that glided through the trees of prehistory 220 million years ago has overturned an established theory of how birds evolved from feathered dinosaurs.

The lizard, which lived 75 million years before the first known bird, may have sported a set of feathers yet was not a dinosaur, a study published today has found.

Finding feathers on a lizard which belongs to the ancestral stock of dinosaurs suggests that these most bird-like of biological structures are far more ancient that anyone has until now realized.

The scientists who made the discovery, reported in the journal of Science,"I believe the existence of a 220 million-year-old fossil with feathers, blows a hole in the idea that birds are "living dinosaurs".

The research has focused on the fossils of Longisquama insignis, an archosaur - the group that gave rise to the dinosaurs, crocodiles and birds - that lived in the forests of what is now central Asia by probably jumping from tree to tree.

"These are some amazing fossils, and at the very least they prove that feathers did not evolve from dinosaurs," said John Ruben, professor of zoology at Oregon State University in Corvallis and a member of the research team. "The supposed link between dinosaurs and birds is pretty entrenched in palaeontology, but it's not as solid as the public has been led to believe."

Soviet scientists originally found the fossils in Kyrgyzstan in 1969 but they laid in a museum drawer in Moscow for many years after an initial examination concluded that two parallel rows of appendages on the back of the animal were scales, not feathers.

However, closer scrutiny of the "scales" by a team of Russian and American scientists found that they have several key features in common with feathers. The scientists found that the appendages had a long, thin tube or shaft running down their centre, with projections or "pinnae" extending from the sides of the base, just like modern feathers, but quite unlike reptilian scales.

Another feature is that Longisquama appears to have a feather growing in the same manner as modern feathers, where the pinnae unfurl inside a tube called a feather sheath.

The scientists believe that they have identified an unfurled pinna inside a sheath where the outer wall has flaked away. Larry Martin, another member of the team at the University of Kansas, said this was the factor that clinched it for him. "I'd been holding back until that point, thinking that these were unusual and feather-like scales, but scales none the less. The results were startling," he said.

Feathers are so distinctive that it is unlikely they they had evolved more than once, Professor Ruben said. "A point that too many people always ignored, however, is that the most bird-like of the dinosaurs, such as Bambiraptor and Velociraptor, lived 70 million years after the earliest bird, Archaeopteryx," he said.

"So according to these findings, you have birds flying before the "evolution" of the first bird-like dinosaurs. We now question very strongly whether there were any feathered dinosaurs at all ... they were probably like flightless birds."

Source:
The Independent News Paper
(http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 13382.html)

I post this because it is one of evolutionist's strongest point that the birds of today evolved from Dinosaur's. Museums everywhere depict this as truth and fact. Yet in the article is stated that Birds basically existed before the first dinosaur with feathers and that the feathers were only scales that appear in the fossilized rocks as feathers when in fact they are not upon closer inspection.

Masses of unsuspecting intelligent people all over the world are duped into believing that Evolution is real when it is really a theory, a possible explanation that just does not hold any water.

The Bible states that Birds did not come from Land but from the waters instead (Genesis 1:20).


You are the one duped, if you believe one fossil of a lizard with feathers disproves the entirety of evolution.

Thats like an alien finding you and deciding all humans were well...like you.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:49 pm

True Story: I know a girl with an archaeoptryx fossil tatoo.

Also, I had to correct a typo in my earlier post. Thanks for the quoting Lootifer :)

Also, what the hell. As soon as I switch categories and start looking at Biblical arguments, Viceroy changes the topic again. Sigh. Luckily, I have a pre-prepared argument against the Dino/Bird bs too.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:26 pm

I post this because it is one of evolutionist's strongest point that the birds of today evolved from Dinosaur's. Museums everywhere depict this as truth and fact. Yet in the article is stated that Birds basically existed before the first dinosaur with feathers and that the feathers were only scales that appear in the fossilized rocks as feathers when in fact they are not upon closer inspection.


Actually, this is one of the most controversial opinions in evolutionary biology. It is not scientists who support this opinion, but rather the popular press. It is true that skeletal remains make birds look similar to dinosaurs. However, there is one major fact that has prevented this view from being scientifically verifiable. Namely, in birds the digits are numbered 2,3,4 (compared to a human with digits 1-5). The corresponding dinosaur digits are 1,2,3. This difference has been considered unsurmountable. Of course, modern molecular approaches are starting to prove that we have the bird numbering scheme wrong. Once that is proven, it will be a strong point for evolutionary biology, but not until then.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:13 pm

DoomYoshi wrote: The canonization of the Bible had one reason and one reason only: to declare the Catholic Church as the only church. So, if you accept the Old Testament with the New, if you accept the books in the order often presented, you are affirming that the Catholic Church is the only church. However, the reformists ignored this inconvenient piece of history and started worshipping the Bible instead of God. Now, Christianity has deviated so far, that Joel Olsteen is the most recognizable religious face in America (he, of course, became famous by promising people riches if they donated to his church).

You are ignoring huge swaths as well.... and rather distorting what happened within the reformation, but this is not the thread in which to discuss it. The Roman Catholic church would love for people to believe they are the only Christian church and always have been, but....

anyway, another thread for that discussion.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:16 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:
I post this because it is one of evolutionist's strongest point that the birds of today evolved from Dinosaur's. Museums everywhere depict this as truth and fact. Yet in the article is stated that Birds basically existed before the first dinosaur with feathers and that the feathers were only scales that appear in the fossilized rocks as feathers when in fact they are not upon closer inspection.


Actually, this is one of the most controversial opinions in evolutionary biology. It is not scientists who support this opinion, but rather the popular press. It is true that skeletal remains make birds look similar to dinosaurs. However, there is one major fact that has prevented this view from being scientifically verifiable. Namely, in birds the digits are numbered 2,3,4 (compared to a human with digits 1-5). The corresponding dinosaur digits are 1,2,3. This difference has been considered unsurmountable. Of course, modern molecular approaches are starting to prove that we have the bird numbering scheme wrong. Once that is proven, it will be a strong point for evolutionary biology, but not until then.


Dinosaurs were diverse, not just one group. That is part of the problem. Beyond that... yeah, the media likes to simplify things. Tends to happen when you decide "news" has to fit in 2 minute segments.

I admit I put forward some about birds/dinosaurs. I was just reading up on the subject. However, my basic point is that V's idea of transition species is just idiotic.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:33 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:I'm just saying, where is all the fossil evidence at?

All over the world -- both in various rock formations (particularly, but not solely, sedimentary rock formations), in museums (both the actual, original rock and scientifically accurate copies), and well, plenty of pictures online.

The problem is not that they don't exist, its that you refuse any evidence you dislike. That is why you are not a scientist.... and never will be. In fact, you are having a hard time even holding a real discussion with those of us with science backgrounds.

Viceroy63 wrote:There is more evidence in the Bible version of creation then in the theory of evolution.

YOu will have to explain this one.

First, nothing in the Bible disputes the theory of Evolution. You keep making that claim, but then point to false explainations for why.

Second, there is no real evidence of the Biblical Creation, the only proof that what the Bible said actually happened is that the various groups named did come about and in essentially the same order given (whales were one exception). There is certainly no evidence of what you seem to believe happened, in fact what you have claimed so far is just plain wrong on ALL fronts, including the Bible.

Viceroy63 wrote:If something is not true, why teach it? If you present something as true when it is not then it's a lie. Plain and simple. This article is really explaining that what we have been taught and are still being taught about the birds being living dinosaurs is a lie and that's all. So basically tax dollars go to teaching children, lie's.

Try reading, not just googling things that seem to have a sentence or two that agree with your thinking. The article you presented is not a critique of evolution, it is a discussion of whether one idea that makes up part of the whole theory is or is not correct. Your presenting it as evidence of evolution's falsity is just laziness on your part.. shows you either did not read or read without understanding what you read.

Also, look up the difference between theory, sciientific theory and fact. See, theories are things that are believed true, but which could be proven false. Your article points to one on-going discussion. No one really knows, as yet, what is and is not true in that particular case. We come closer and closer as more information is discovered. The problem here is not that peopel are lying. Its that you ..a nd yes, some teachers, seem unable to understand the difference between a fact and a theory.


Oh, and just finding fault with evolution is not the same at ALL as proving your ideas are correct.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby GreecePwns on Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:54 pm

Viceroy, you cannot pick one animal having a slight difference in evolutionary process than what is popularly believed and say "welp, evolution in total has been disproven."

Because I could easily have disproven the Biblical story ten times for each little thing you have quibbled about in this thread.
Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.

Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.
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