An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

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What are the facts? Please keep an open mind and read the article first before casting your vote.

While there is certainly proof that mutations do occur in nature; There is absolutely no real evidence to support the theory of evolution at this time (for over the past 150 years of "Dino-digging"). Including the sedimentary column.
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26%
There probably is evidence to support this theory, yet scientist are at a loss to explain it appropriately.
17
26%
Scientist are great at making shit up when they have no evidence to prove something that is false to begin with.
8
12%
I believe in Santa. He's a real person that lives all the way deep at the north pole and brings me presents every year. The presents prove that he's real. I also leave him milk and cookies to snack on and while I don't ever see him, I just know with all my heart, that he is the one who eats all the cookies and milk. Or, I wish I had a dogasaur like Dino.
23
35%
 
Total votes : 65

Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:00 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:I think that I made it very clear that the theory of evolution when taught as a fact is a deception that even when men of science do not agree with it yet they don't state all the facts.


The theory of evolution is taught as a scientific theory. That is what it is. A science teacher that claims it is a fact is mistaken as to the definition of the word "fact." Problem solved.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Viceroy63 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:02 pm

comic boy wrote:Wow it appears he wasn't trolling , how terribly sad , the rise of ignorance indeed.


It seems to me that you are the one who is trolling here. Any Mod want to give me a decision on this? Maybe send him a PM real discreet like?

How anyone can read my OP and think that it's Trolling is beyond me?
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby MeDeFe on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:19 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
comic boy wrote:Wow it appears he wasn't trolling , how terribly sad , the rise of ignorance indeed.


It seems to me that you are the one who is trolling here. Any Mod want to give me a decision on this? Maybe send him a PM real discreet like?

How anyone can read my OP and think that it's Trolling is beyond me?

I spotted some 3 or 4 grave factual errors when reading your OP (they have all been pointed out already by other posters). Some people could consider that trolling if they think you did it on purpose.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby _sabotage_ on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:20 pm

Where did God come from?

Where did the Big Bang come from?

These are basic questions which we can't answer. I grew up knowing the theory of evolution. My father insisted that creation believers were just insane. But he is an atheist. And those who believe in the eternal soul may think that he is insane.

I didn't research these theories, as most people probably don't. Just as I hadn't researched global warming. In general too much research leaves you blinded by all the info and can't really be considered objective for the very reason that hypotheses generally start prior to an investigation and lead to the: seek and you will find a supporting answer.

On the other hand, this question begs a deeper answer: why do we exist?

My mother died when I was quite young and the father I mention above was via adoption. Perhaps for this reason the questions of life and death obsessed me at an earlier age than most. Regardless of what you believe, it comes down to three simple choices:

Pursue life as if it's eternal.

Pursue life as if it is a brief window in a continuation of time.

Pursue life as if it's to be enjoyed to the utmost.

In the first instance, we can turn to religious texts and find in general we should do unto others as we would have others do unto us. An example of this is, when the world is against someone be fair to them. It's quite difficult and I see that I thought very badly of Michael Jackson in the 90s, but regret it now.

In the second instance, we seek worldly acclaim or provide a contribution for those to come. This gives life meaning in the current sense and allows us to live on through the recognition of our exploits. An example of this, Michael Jackson added to added to the breadth of music and will live on through his songs, or at least his contribution to music overall.

In the third instance, we don't really care if we live or die, since death will come anyway and therefore we make merry as much as possible. An example of this, if Michael really did have his way with them boys, he was pursuing his passions regardless of his worldly renown or other-worldly consequences.

These three possibilities stretch the limits of different paths to a successful life. If everyone dies and disappears, worldly renown is of no consequence. If we live live on through our deeds and doings, then it is a matter of achieving something to add to this. And if we have eternal life in the hereafter, our worldly actions may want to reflect this.

I respect most the person who wholeheartedly pursues one of these directions. I disparage most those who haven't even considered why they are here and those who focus on profiting on others loses. Those in between, I ask you, and I am one of them, to pick a side.
Last edited by _sabotage_ on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby AAFitz on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:28 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
comic boy wrote:Wow it appears he wasn't trolling , how terribly sad , the rise of ignorance indeed.


It seems to me that you are the one who is trolling here. Any Mod want to give me a decision on this? Maybe send him a PM real discreet like?

How anyone can read my OP and think that it's Trolling is beyond me?


I don't think it was trolling because you are claiming to believe it. However, the view is so inconsistent with the actual facts that it does in fact seem like trolling to those who believe differently.

To be fair, you are making the same claim about the evolutionists, that they are only continuing evolution theory because of a paycheck, which is worse than trolling, and would be outright corruption.

And comic boy is not trolling there either. He fully means what he says, and quite frankly, I agree with him 100%. I will say however, that you at least put a lot of work into your inconsistent, and incorrect assumptions, which is why I don't consider them trolling, just very uneducated, and wrong.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby comic boy on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:32 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
comic boy wrote:Wow it appears he wasn't trolling , how terribly sad , the rise of ignorance indeed.


It seems to me that you are the one who is trolling here. Any Mod want to give me a decision on this? Maybe send him a PM real discreet like?

How anyone can read my OP and think that it's Trolling is beyond me?


I have already pointed out the hypocrisy of your argument , coupled with your ignorance of the subject in question it presents a fairly pathetic picture . Frankly the suggestion that you were trolling was your only lifeline....
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby SirSebstar on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:50 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
comic boy wrote:Wow it appears he wasn't trolling , how terribly sad , the rise of ignorance indeed.


It seems to me that you are the one who is trolling here. Any Mod want to give me a decision on this? Maybe send him a PM real discreet like?

How anyone can read my OP and think that it's Trolling is beyond me?

i can, so it appears not to be beyond me..
dude, you may believe whatever your mind is capable of grasping. Myself, i keep reminding myself that it took a comittee to deside on wether or not jesus was holy.. and who made the cut what storys made the bible and what did not...
myself, i think the faulty version of the theory of evolution makes better sense then a (unspecified, because there are multiple versions) bible.

I do keep wondering why we as a people allow fanatics to indoctrinate people with what is obviously anti social and unhealthy thinking? and yes, i mean by that religious people.I have never had an atheist scream in my face that i needed to be saved, and christians just wont go away even when asked
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby comic boy on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:56 pm

_sabotage_ wrote:Where did God come from?

Where did the Big Bang come from?

These are basic questions which we can't answer. I grew up knowing the theory of evolution. My father insisted that creation believers were just insane. But he is an atheist. And those who believe in the eternal soul may think that he is insane.

I didn't research these theories, as most people probably don't. Just as I hadn't researched global warming. In general too much research leaves you blinded by all the info and can't really be considered objective for the very reason that hypotheses generally start prior to an investigation and lead to the: seek and you will find a supporting answer.

On the other hand, this question begs a deeper answer: why do we exist?

My mother died when I was quite young and the father I mention above was via adoption. Perhaps for this reason the questions of life and death obsessed me at an earlier age than most. Regardless of what you believe, it comes down to three simple choices:

Pursue life as if it's eternal.

Pursue life as if it is a brief window in a continuation of time.

Pursue life as if it's to be enjoyed to the utmost.

In the first instance, we can turn to religious texts and find in general we should do unto others as we would have others do unto us. An example of this is, when the world is against someone be fair to them. It's quite difficult and I see that I thought very badly of Michael Jackson in the 90s, but regret it now.

In the second instance, we seek worldly acclaim or provide a contribution for those to come. This gives life meaning in the current sense and allows us to live on through the recognition of our exploits. An example of this, Michael Jackson added to added to the breadth of music and will live on through his songs, or at least his contribution to music overall.

In the third instance, we don't really care if we live or die, since death will come anyway and therefore we make merry as much as possible. An example of this, if Michael really did have his way with them boys, he was pursuing his passions regardless of his worldly renown or other-worldly consequences.

These three possibilities stretch the limits of different paths to a successful life. If everyone dies and disappears, worldly renown is of no consequence. If we live live on through our deeds and doings, then it is a matter of achieving something to add to this. And if we have eternal life in the hereafter, our worldly actions may want to reflect this.

I respect most the person who wholeheartedly pursues one of these directions. I disparage most those who haven't even considered why they are here and those who focus on profiting on others loses. Those in between, I ask you, and I am one of them, to pick a side.


There is nothing wrong with adopting a rigid philosophical stance, problems only arise when attempting to use the scientific method to rationalise it. Even more alarming is the attempt to misrepresent or twist science purely to fit a pre conceived notion . Viceroy attacks evolution not because the science is unsound , he does so simply because it doesn't fit his particular agenda , its a dishonest position at the very least.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby _sabotage_ on Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:11 pm

I believe that the scientific method is to observe, hypothesize, test and analyze.

I observe that the theories either begin with a Big Bang or with a God. I hypothesize that either had to come from something. I test and I find that we cannot account for the source of either. Upon analyzing this, I decide that we have several potential results. I have provided these several possible results.

Without any backing you claim that Vic's position is dishonest. And therefore one of my possible positions. Unfortunately you claim to use a scientific method. I claim that I am a human being trying to decide a course in my life. We are discussing different topics.

You claim that mine is a rigid philosophical approach and yet I expect the outcome to be quite rigid. We will either melt into nothingness, merge into history, or experience eternity.

What do you claim? You claim that we should go with the scientific evidence that we have been provided with and not question any holes in it. This seems both unscientific and rigid. We cease to observe in such an approach and deny a possibility that 2/3's of the world's population more or less concurs with because it doesn't suit your point of view.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Lootifer on Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:37 pm

Blergh why do we even bother (@Viceroy or whatever his name is, not you sabotage)
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby comic boy on Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:55 pm

_sabotage_ wrote:I believe that the scientific method is to observe, hypothesize, test and analyze.

I observe that the theories either begin with a Big Bang or with a God. I hypothesize that either had to come from something. I test and I find that we cannot account for the source of either. Upon analyzing this, I decide that we have several potential results. I have provided these several possible results.

Without any backing you claim that Vic's position is dishonest. And therefore one of my possible positions. Unfortunately you claim to use a scientific method. I claim that I am a human being trying to decide a course in my life. We are discussing different topics.

You claim that mine is a rigid philosophical approach and yet I expect the outcome to be quite rigid. We will either melt into nothingness, merge into history, or experience eternity.

What do you claim? You claim that we should go with the scientific evidence that we have been provided with and not question any holes in it. This seems both unscientific and rigid. We cease to observe in such an approach and deny a possibility that 2/3's of the world's population more or less concurs with because it doesn't suit your point of view.


Firstly I was simply adding to your point, not addressing you , so in fact I was claiming nothing whatsoever in regard to you , do for goodness sake pay attention. Secondly you are making things up , I never indicated that science should not be questioned and I specificaly stated that there was nothing wrong with taking a philosophical position. My point was that philosophy and science stand alone , you cant use one to disprove the other, this also seems to be your point so what on earth are you arguing against ?
Incidently 2/3 of the worlds population most certainly do not challenge evolution , the vast majority of relifious folk , including most theologians, accept the theory with the proviso that God supplied the initial building blocks.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:19 pm

Viceroy63 wrote: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.
by Viceroy63

[1] Evolution is taught and accepted as factual evidence when in fact there is no factual evidence to support the Theory of Evolution.

Evolution is not taught as fact. It is taught as a scientific theory, which does have a LOT of factual evidence to support it, though it is true there is not 100% definitive proof.

Viceroy63 wrote:The theory of Evolution purposes that life evolved gradually over millions if not billions of years from single cell organisms to the complex life that exist today on the planet. But where is the evidence in the rocks to support this.

All around the Earth. Look particularly in any sedimentary rock formation. Not all contain fossils, but many do. Or you could just visit a few museums, many of which have fossils on display -- along with (if it is a good museum) a bit about where and how the fossil was collected and/or what is known about it. (museums have all that, but highlight specific bits for various displays )
Viceroy63 wrote:[2] Evidence "in the rocks" or fossils (fossilized remains), is what is used to explain evolution and the diversity of life on the planet. Yet there is a problem with the fossil records. There are no intermediate species depicting this. You would think that if the fossil records is what is used to teach evolution as fact and reason for the origin of life on the planet that the fossil records would be without question. Yet there remains great gaps or holes in the records in the rocks for evolution to be taught as fact. And yet it is.

I see, so if I say 1,2, ?, 4,5,6, ?,7 you cannot possibly figure out what the missing numbers are because there are gaps?

We know that life differing a great deal from what we see around us existed earlier. We can see that some forms more like what we see, including some that are identical to what we see today (horseshoe crabs, the nautilus are all ancient types) and we see some that seem to represent something like what a transition species might be -- Ceolocanths, for example.

Also, there is no other theory that explains the evidence we have... period. There just isn't.
Viceroy63 wrote:[3] The gaps are simple to understand when you realize that the Theory explains that life evolved "gradually" over millions of years. That word "gradually," is the key to understanding the gaps. If it takes millions of years for one species to evolve into another, then there should be millions of years worth of fossilized remains everywhere showing the gradual changes over all those millions of years. You just don't show a dinosaur and then a bird and say, "walla," evolution, see!

Why? The processes to form fossils are very specific and tricky. Its actually pretty amazing that we have as many fossils as we have.

Besides.. the fact is that fossils exist and no one has come up with a better explanation than evolution. That IS fact.
Viceroy63 wrote:[4] One could argue, "but how?" and the debate would go something like this; "Don't you see the similarities in the bone structures of the arms of the dinosaur and the wings of the bird? Why they are practically identical!" But what about the intermediate species that evolved between the dinosaur and the bird? well it turns out that the fossil records is not perfect or that we have yet to find them? Then why is evolution taught as fact in schools everywhere when it is not a proven fact?

Ironically enough, several bird transition species have been found. Ironically enough, even the T-rex is one... or were you not aware of that?

Viceroy63 wrote:[5] Charles Darwin, who wrote, "The Origin of Species," devoted an entire chapter explaining the problem with evolution or as we would say today, debunking his own work.

Not quite.. but go ahead.
Viceroy63 wrote:[6] The Origin of Species:
by Charles Darwin
Chapter 9: On the Imperfection of the Geological Record

"But just in proportion as this process of extermination has acted on an enormous scale, so must the number of intermediate varieties, which have formerly existed on the earth, be truly enormous. Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory. The explanation lies, as I believe, in the extreme imperfection of the geological record."
(The Origin of Species by Charles Darwin, 1859)
Darwin thought, nay make that "assumed", because its closer to the truth, that the Earth was far younger than it is today. Also, if you were to continue, you would find his answers to the above.. along with those of many other people.

This is actually called "countering the opposition". You try to think of any objection others might have.. and then deal with it, or acknowledge it as a problem yet to be solved.

Darwin did not know what we do about genetics, plate techtonic -- or many other things.
Viceroy63 wrote:[7] Darwin saw the fault in his own theory yet he blamed the rocks for not being adequate record keepers. LOL.

[8] "The faults lie not in our stars but with ourselves."
(Shakespeare)

[9] He believed in his theory at the time, except for the fact that the fossil records did not support his theory. At least not yet. But perhaps one day all those intermediate species would be found, some how? At least that is what was hoped for. Yet he could not understand why there were not any found at the time when there should be as many intermediate fossils as there are fossils of anything else.
See above.
You are proving nothing, not really saying anything here. Tehre are gaps.. so what?

There was life before, there is life now.. and while there is not a full and complete set of transitions for every single line of species, there are plenty of transitions and lines evidenced in the fossil record.

And.. again, no other theory has been presented that better answers the data we have. This is significant. Its one thing to say that evolution might not be true.. fine, few will disagree. But for it to matter, you have to present a competing theory that equally answers ALL the evidence. Just saying "we cannot fully prove evolution right now" isn't enough.
Viceroy63 wrote:[10] 140 years later Professor Steve Jones of University College London published an updated version of Darwin’s "Origin of Species" in 1999, the fossil records still posed the same problems and gaps.

Not quite. Some gaps still exist, but a multitude of gaps and answers were found between Darwin's publication and 1999.
Viceroy63 wrote:"The fossil record - in defiance of Darwin's whole idea of gradual change - often makes great leaps from one form to the next. Far from the display of intermediates to be expected from slow advance through natural selection many species appear without warning, persist in fixed form and disappear, leaving no descendants. Geology assuredly does not reveal any finely graduated organic chain, and this is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against the theory of evolution.”
(Professor Steve Jones, Almost Like a Whale, p. 252)
Yeah, Darwin thought change should be constant and gradual. We know differently now. Try reading up on modern evolution not just what was thought at the turn of the century.
Viceroy63 wrote:[11] Notice how in 1999, Professor Steve Jones called it a "Theory of Evolution." He stated that creatures seemed to be coming into existence almost as if they were "Created" (supernaturally, although he does not use that word, I do) from nothing but the earth. They just came into existence, lived, danced, laughed and then just died out and never even left a forwarding address. LOL.

He shows nothing against evolution. Sorry, but he doesn't. Natural selecton creates species that are highly adapted. There is no reason to change unless the environment around changes. It more complicated that that, of course, but the fossil record shows long periods of relative stasis, relatively little change.. then cateclysms happen causing massive die-offs and new sets of species (along with some unchanged species) appear.

It makes sense if you think about what happens --- something kills off most of the species, leaving just a few to reproduce. If the environment is changing again quickly, then the same thing might happen again.. and again. However, note that this "relatively quick" time period is thousands of years in length.

You just have to look around us today to see such a period of massiv die-offs. In fact, the die-offs seen today are essentially unriveled in Earth's history.

Or, you can study up on what happens when people use antibiotics, particularly incorrectly.

Viceroy63 wrote: [large segment deleted]
To Be Concluded...


I could only deal with the first bit now. When I have time, I can go back and go over the rest of your claims.

Then again, you might just review one of these threads:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=114455&hilit=creation+versus

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29535&p=2152183&hilit=creation+versus#p2152183


viewtopic.php?f=8&t=87553&p=2043214&hilit=creation+versus#p2043214

or a few others.
Last edited by PLAYER57832 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:21 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:Faith is not blind but based on observable facts. But one must first be willing to open their eyes to the truth. That is why I can observe, with my open eyes the fact that Evolution is a lie and should not be taught in schools and universities, as Fact.

There is a big difference between saying that Evolution is not proven, which is correct, and saying "Evolution is a lie".

What evidence do you claim shows evolution is false?

Also, do you really know how much evidence is required for something to be considered fully proven in science?
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:27 pm

_sabotage_ wrote:Where did God come from?

Where did the Big Bang come from?

These are basic questions which we can't answer. I.

These also have nothing at all to do with evolution. Evolution deals with the development of life on Earth, not the origin of the universe or even our solar system/Earth... never mind the bit about where God came from or if there even is a God.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Viceroy63 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:54 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:Faith is not blind but based on observable facts. But one must first be willing to open their eyes to the truth. That is why I can observe, with my open eyes the fact that Evolution is a lie and should not be taught in schools and universities, as Fact.

There is a big difference between saying that Evolution is not proven, which is correct, and saying "Evolution is a lie".

What evidence do you claim shows evolution is false?

Also, do you really know how much evidence is required for something to be considered fully proven in science?


I personally determine something to be a lie when it is pawned off as genuine or taught as fact. The fact of the matter is that regardless of whether people can come to grips with this or not, evolution has been taught as a scientific fact. It always has been.

Please keep in mind that the evolution of the horse was the best exampled evidence of evolutionist and it turns out to be a hoax. I am deeply disappointed that supposedly open and intelligent minds can't see this for what it is, Thus the title of this thread, "The Rise of Ignorance." The same has been shown with all other works and displays that evolutionist have used to prove that evolution is a fact and not a theory.

"This is true of all the thirty-two orders of mammals . . The earliest and most primitive known members of every order already have the basic ordinal characters, and in no case is an approximately continuous sequence from one order to another known. In most cases the break is so sharp and the gap so large that the origin of the order is speculative and much disputed."
—*G.G. Simpson, Tempo and Mode in Evolution (1944), p. 105.

The Myth of Horse Evolution
One important subject in the origin of mammals is the myth of the "evolution of the horse," also a topic to which evolutionist publications have devoted a considerable amount of space for a long time. This is a myth, because it is based on imagination rather than scientific findings.

Until recently, an imaginary sequence supposedly showing the evolution of the horse was advanced as the principal fossil evidence for the theory of evolution. Today, however, many evolutionists themselves frankly admit that the scenario of horse evolution is bankrupt. In 1980, a four-day symposium was held at the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago, with 150 evolutionists in attendance, to discuss the problems with the gradualistic evolutionary theory. In addressing this meeting, evolutionist Boyce Rensberger noted that the scenario of the evolution of the horse has no foundation in the fossil record, and that no evolutionary process has been observed that would account for the gradual evolution of horses:
(http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/natural ... _2_12.html)

"The evolution of the horse was never in a straight line."—*Encyclopaedia Britannica (1976 ed.), Vol. 7, p. 13.

For crying out loud people, If you can't trust the Encyclopaedia Britannica (1976 edition) then who the hell can you trust?

People who claim that the Theory of Evolution has some type of foundation should post that evidence rather than say it does. Just post all your evidence for the Theory of Evolution in this thread.
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