An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

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What are the facts? Please keep an open mind and read the article first before casting your vote.

While there is certainly proof that mutations do occur in nature; There is absolutely no real evidence to support the theory of evolution at this time (for over the past 150 years of "Dino-digging"). Including the sedimentary column.
17
26%
There probably is evidence to support this theory, yet scientist are at a loss to explain it appropriately.
17
26%
Scientist are great at making shit up when they have no evidence to prove something that is false to begin with.
8
12%
I believe in Santa. He's a real person that lives all the way deep at the north pole and brings me presents every year. The presents prove that he's real. I also leave him milk and cookies to snack on and while I don't ever see him, I just know with all my heart, that he is the one who eats all the cookies and milk. Or, I wish I had a dogasaur like Dino.
23
35%
 
Total votes : 65

Re: Evolution Has Never Occurred!

Postby Viceroy63 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:43 pm

Haggis_McMutton wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:I can show you evidence of a world wide flood but you can't show me one piece of evidence of a dinosaur turning into a bird. Yet that is what science teaches.


Viceroy, meet Archaeopteryx. Archaeopteryx, this is Viceroy. I don't think the two of you will get along.


No Haggis, You are Wrong! Archaeopteryx is not evidence of a Dinosaur turning into a bird. It is not even a missing link. It is evidence of the ignorance of so called intellectual folks allowing themselves to get duped into believing the lie that Darwinists want you to believe so badly. Why don't you research the facts before posting and repeating evolutionist lies.

For the Record, if you bothered to looked into it, Archaeopteryx is a fully formed bird and not a dinosaur at all. If the species known as Birds evolved from the Dinosaurs then where is the missing link between the dinosaur and Archaeopteryx? Again I repeat that Archaeopteryx is a fully formed bird just as we see with every creature in the fossil records, all of them fully formed and no intermediary species between any of them at all.

"Archaeopteryx, though both more avian and displaying a greater degree of autapomorphy than previously thought (Elzanowski & Wellnhofer 1996, Elzanowski 2002) is nonetheless an unquestionably primitive bird."
(http://evolutionwiki.org/wiki/Archaeopt ... fully_bird)

Would you like for me to show you evidence of a world wide BIBLICAL flood now?
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Re: Evolution Has Never Occurred!

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:55 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:Would you like for me to show you evidence of a world wide BIBLICAL flood now?

Yes. Does your evidence include the Epic of Gilgamesh (18th century BCE), which talks about a massive flood, and how it seems there has been cultural history of floods in Mesopotamia dating back perhaps further, and that likely the Bible incorporated some of these accounts?


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Re: Evolution Has Never Occurred!

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:58 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:I can show you evidence of a world wide flood but you can't show me one piece of evidence of a dinosaur turning into a bird. Yet that is what science teaches.


Viceroy, meet Archaeopteryx. Archaeopteryx, this is Viceroy. I don't think the two of you will get along.


No Haggis, You are Wrong! Archaeopteryx is not evidence of a Dinosaur turning into a bird. It is not even a missing link. It is evidence of the ignorance of so called intellectual folks allowing themselves to get duped into believing the lie that Darwinists want you to believe so badly. Why don't you research the facts before posting and repeating evolutionist lies.

For the Record, if you bothered to looked into it, Archaeopteryx is a fully formed bird and not a dinosaur at all. If the species known as Birds evolved from the Dinosaurs then where is the missing link between the dinosaur and Archaeopteryx? Again I repeat that Archaeopteryx is a fully formed bird just as we see with every creature in the fossil records, all of them fully formed and no intermediary species between any of them at all.

"Archaeopteryx, though both more avian and displaying a greater degree of autapomorphy than previously thought (Elzanowski & Wellnhofer 1996, Elzanowski 2002) is nonetheless an unquestionably primitive bird."
(http://evolutionwiki.org/wiki/Archaeopt ... fully_bird)

Would you like for me to show you evidence of a world wide BIBLICAL flood now?


So let's get this straight. What sort of characteristics would a fossil need to have, to convince you that it is a "transition species" between dinosaurs and birds?
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Re: Evolution Has Never Occurred!

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:03 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:So let's get this straight. What sort of characteristics would a fossil need to have, to convince you that it is a "transition species" between dinosaurs and birds?


Something like this:

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Evolution Has Never Occurred!

Postby Viceroy63 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:06 pm

[Note]
I would just like to state for the record that not considering to read an article because of it's source is not only unscientific but ignorant as all hell and tantamount to mental and spiritual book burning mentality. Those who comment on these HOAX articles in the negative attitude, without even reading them, should be ashamed of themselves. Really and truly ashamed of themselves. I would personally take my own life because I could not live with the shame of being so stupid. The evidence presented is so very clear. For example...

The four main and only specimens for Archaeopteryx were all found in the same place only two months apart from each other by the same person even. If that alone does not raise suspicion then there is a bridge in Brooklyn that I would like to sell to you. And cheaply too if you just hurry up and write me the check. Further more if in the past hundred years we had found tens of thousand of Dinosaur Bones yet only four specimen for Achaeopteryx then the majority of humans deserve to wallow in ignorance because that is just simply unheard of. That's like only finding Four T-Rex out of all the hundreds if not thousands of completed skeletons of Dinosaurs and claiming that they must have eaten the rest of the population among themselves because that's all that there is. Come on people, you can't be that arrogant? Can you?
Viceroy63
-End Note

This article can be read in it's entirety at...
http://tccsa.tc/articles/hoax.html

This is only an excerpt from the article itself.

THE ULTIMATE HOAX: ARCHAEOPTERYX LITHOGRAPHICA
by Ian Taylor


ABSTRACT
The recent claims that the London specimen of the Archaeopteryx is a hoax have been clarified and there would seem to be grounds for suspicion. The published work on the Berlin specimen shows that it has every indication of being a hoax of the same kind, that is, a modified genuine fossil of the Compsognathus. All four of the more recent "discoveries" are shown to be nothing more than reclassification of genuine fossils of the same small dinosaur..

INTRODUCTION
To many people the very word 'fossil' causes about as much excitement as watching grass grow. However, when we lift the veil which shrouds the world's most famous fossil, we find a labyrinth of intrigue and deception making it all somehow far more palatable. The fossil of the Archaeopteryx is said to be the paleontologist's "Rosetta Stone" providing irrefutable evidence that evolution of the species actually occurred. It has taken pride of place in every biology textbook for over a century and has recently been wreathed in controversy following the claims that one of the principal specimens is a fake. We will first trace out the history of the discovery of the various specimens, then examine the claims that the London specimen is fraudulent. Following this, we will determine if the more famous Berlin specimen can withstand the harsh light of scrutiny. It will be shown that the weight of evidence from both human activity and technical detail for all the known specimens points overwhelmingly to both the London and Berlin specimens of the Archaeopteryx being nothing more than a clever hoax.

It is now almost a century since Professor Hurst published his criticisms based upon personal observations of both the London [39] and Berlin specimens. It may be wondered why this information is not more widely known. The scientific establishment has been virtually dominated by biologists ever since Darwin's day and a kind of censorship of any work critical of evolution has been in effect throughout this time. Hurst had published his work in a scholarly journal offering a balanced airing of contrary opinions; the journal was short-lived (from 1892 to 1899) and is seldom found in library collections today. Similarly, because of the nature of Hoyle and Spetner's findings, these were not found acceptable to the mainline biological journals and they were obliged to report them in The British Journal of Photography.

THE FEATHERS.
Impressions of modern feathers only appear on the London and Berlin specimens and only on the tail and in the wing areas. Hurst had remarked on the marvelous state of preservation of the feather impressions saying, "even the barbules of some of the quills are recognizable" [40]. It may be added that there are no other examples of feathers having been preserved in such detail in the fossil record. One very recent case reported in 1988 from Spain [41] is of a single, half-inch long feather but this had been carbonized. That the preservation of such microscopic detail should occur in the two specimens already shrouded in suspicion is simply what one might expect from a forgery where the forgers had little choice but to use modern feathers. It raises an interesting question concerning the kind of detail present in the wing areas of the Berlin Specimen after its apparent modification about a century ago? As far as specimens assigned more recently to the status of Archaeopteryx are concerned, the popular accounts typically say that "feather impressions are distinct" [42] but, in fact, the investigator's statements say, "These features are interpreted as imprints of feather shafts" [43]. Quite a different thing where for example the "feather shaft impressions" may have been produced by quills and not feathers. Moreover, there is not a hint of a feather or feather shaft impression near any of the tails of the Maxberg, Haarlem, or Solnhofen specimens; Wellnhofer [14] claims there are feather impressions in the tail area of the Eichstatt specimen but Ostrom denies this.

CONCLUSION
In this paper we have not been concerned with the unlikely possibility that the Archaeopteryx was a strange mosaic creature like Australia's duck-billed platypus. The concern has been with fraud: its motive seems to have been monetary gain, the result has been to provide evidence for a theory. When all the published facts regarding the Archaeopteryx are brought forward, any unbiased jury would find it extremely difficult not to conclude that both the London and Berlin specimens were fraudulent. The more recent "discoveries" are seemingly an attempt to restore confidence in an oft-told myth and have been carried out by mere re-classification of the same kind of fossil used for the hoax; the feather evidence, like Percival Lowell's 700 canals on Mars, is more in the eye of faith than it is in fact. Professor Ostrom, who has examined every specimen, confesses that only the London and Berlin specimens contain clear feather impressions while the Eichstatt tail has a "plume" but no evidence of feathers. The London specimen is the only one having a clearly defined feature said to be a furcula and, while Ostrom claims the Maxberg specimen has a furcula, this is not at all convincing. Even if an undoubted furcula were discovered in another specimen, this would only tend to confirm that the furcula in the London specimen was genuine. However, it would not remove the suspicion of fraud because it seems likely that the Compsognathus itself may have had fused clavicles. Finally, it is surely incumbent upon the paleontologist to provide convincing explanations for: a) the change from straight feather impressions to the unlikely bent feather impressions in the Berlin specimen and b) why primary feathers, which are modern in every respect, attach to the ulna instead of the manus as in modern birds? Until such explanations are forthcoming the suspicion of fraud will remain.

This article can be read in it's entirety at...
http://tccsa.tc/articles/hoax.html
Last edited by Viceroy63 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:44 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Evolution Has Never Occurred!

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:06 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:So let's get this straight. What sort of characteristics would a fossil need to have, to convince you that it is a "transition species" between dinosaurs and birds?


I think I asked that around page 5, still waiting on an answer.
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Re: Evolution Has Never Occurred!

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:08 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:This article can be read in it's entirety at...
http://tccsa.tc/articles/hoax.html

THE ULTIMATE HOAX: ARCHAEOPTERYX LITHOGRAPHICA
by Ian Taylor

In what journal was this peer reviewed under? Maybe by the other members from his association?

Ian Taylor is President of Creation Moments
(formerly Bible Science Association)



--Andy
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby crispybits on Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:14 pm

Is the Twin Cities Creation Science Association a well respected and unbiased scientific institute without any agenda to push?

I'll give you a clue - no respected and unbiased scientific institution would ever put anything like this on their web page:

TCCSA STATEMENT OF BELIEF

We believe in God: The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and that all of its assertions are historically and scientifically true in the original autographs; this means that the account of origins in Genesis is a factual presentation of actual historical truths.

We believe that the origin of matter and all basic types of living things, including man, came about through direct creative acts of God during the six-day creation week described in Genesis. Whatever biological changes have occurred since the creation week have accomplished only changes within the created kinds.

We believe that the great flood described in Genesis, commonly referred to as the Noachian Flood, was an historic event, world-wide in extent and effect.

We accept the account of the special creation of Adam and Eve as the first man and woman. Their subsequent fall into sin, by disobedience of God's direct command, is the basis for our belief in the necessity of a Savior for all mankind.

Therefore, we believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord and only Savior and that personal faith in Him is necessary for salvation.


When you go into any research with preconceptions that cannot be proven true, then you lose the right to have your results taken seriously.

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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby comic boy on Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:38 pm

So in summary ;
The argument against the theory of evolution is entirely driven by a minority of theists who feel it undermines their fundamentalist creation beliefs.....Well tough luck that their faith needs to be underpinned by lies and distortions :(
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Re: Evolution Has Never Occurred!

Postby AAFitz on Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:54 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:I can show you evidence of a world wide flood but you can't show me one piece of evidence of a dinosaur turning into a bird. Yet that is what science teaches.


Viceroy, meet Archaeopteryx. Archaeopteryx, this is Viceroy. I don't think the two of you will get along.


No Haggis, You are Wrong! Archaeopteryx is not evidence of a Dinosaur turning into a bird. It is not even a missing link. It is evidence of the ignorance of so called intellectual folks allowing themselves to get duped into believing the lie that Darwinists want you to believe so badly. Why don't you research the facts before posting and repeating evolutionist lies.

For the Record, if you bothered to looked into it, Archaeopteryx is a fully formed bird and not a dinosaur at all. If the species known as Birds evolved from the Dinosaurs then where is the missing link between the dinosaur and Archaeopteryx? Again I repeat that Archaeopteryx is a fully formed bird just as we see with every creature in the fossil records, all of them fully formed and no intermediary species between any of them at all.

"Archaeopteryx, though both more avian and displaying a greater degree of autapomorphy than previously thought (Elzanowski & Wellnhofer 1996, Elzanowski 2002) is nonetheless an unquestionably primitive bird."
(http://evolutionwiki.org/wiki/Archaeopt ... fully_bird)

Would you like for me to show you evidence of a world wide BIBLICAL flood now?


So let's get this straight. What sort of characteristics would a fossil need to have, to convince you that it is a "transition species" between dinosaurs and birds?


A note from God saying it was a transition species.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby AAFitz on Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:56 pm

comic boy wrote:So in summary ;
The argument against the theory of evolution is entirely driven by a minority of theists who feel it undermines their fundamentalist creation beliefs.....Well tough luck that their faith needs to be underpinned by lies and distortions :(


Its entertaining though, however tragic.
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Re: Evolution Has Never Occurred!

Postby AAFitz on Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:59 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:I can show you evidence of a world wide flood but you can't show me one piece of evidence of a dinosaur turning into a bird. Yet that is what science teaches.


Viceroy, meet Archaeopteryx. Archaeopteryx, this is Viceroy. I don't think the two of you will get along.


No Haggis, You are Wrong! Archaeopteryx is not evidence of a Dinosaur turning into a bird. It is not even a missing link. It is evidence of the ignorance of so called intellectual folks allowing themselves to get duped into believing the lie that Darwinists want you to believe so badly. Why don't you research the facts before posting and repeating evolutionist lies.

For the Record, if you bothered to looked into it, Archaeopteryx is a fully formed bird and not a dinosaur at all. If the species known as Birds evolved from the Dinosaurs then where is the missing link between the dinosaur and Archaeopteryx? Again I repeat that Archaeopteryx is a fully formed bird just as we see with every creature in the fossil records, all of them fully formed and no intermediary species between any of them at all.

"Archaeopteryx, though both more avian and displaying a greater degree of autapomorphy than previously thought (Elzanowski & Wellnhofer 1996, Elzanowski 2002) is nonetheless an unquestionably primitive bird."
(http://evolutionwiki.org/wiki/Archaeopt ... fully_bird)

Would you like for me to show you evidence of a world wide BIBLICAL flood now?


Sure, show your misinterpreted 'evidence' for your preconcieved belief that a flood happened....and add in the Ark that carried a few billion animals....you know, because Im sure you have that too.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby jonesthecurl on Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:08 pm

Controversy
Authenticity

Beginning in 1985, a group including astronomer Fred Hoyle and physicist Lee Spetner published a series of papers claiming that the feathers on the Berlin and London specimens of Archaeopteryx were forged.[70][71][72][73] Their claims were repudiated by Alan J. Charig and others at the British Museum (Natural History).[74] Most of their evidence for a forgery was based on unfamiliarity with the processes of lithification; for example, they proposed that based on the difference in texture associated with the feathers, feather impressions were applied to a thin layer of cement,[71] without realizing that feathers themselves would have caused a textural difference.[74] They also expressed disbelief that slabs would split so smoothly, or that one half of a slab containing fossils would have good preservation, but not the counterslab.[70][72] These, though, are common properties of Solnhofen fossils because the dead animals would fall onto hardened surfaces which would form a natural plane for the future slabs to split along, leaving the bulk of the fossil on one side and little on the other.[74] They also misinterpreted the fossils, claiming that the tail was forged as one large feather,[71] when this is visibly not the case.[74] In addition, they claimed that the other specimens of Archaeopteryx known at the time did not have feathers,[70][71] which is incorrect; the Maxberg and Eichstätt specimens have obvious feathers.[74] Finally, the motives they suggested for a forgery are not strong, and contradictory; one is that Richard Owen wanted to forge evidence in support of Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, which is unlikely given Owen's views toward Darwin and his theory. The other is that Owen wanted to set a trap for Darwin, hoping the latter would support the fossils so Owen could discredit him with the forgery; this is unlikely because Owen himself wrote a detailed paper on the London specimen, so such an action would certainly backfire.[75]

Charig et al. pointed to the presence of hairline cracks in the slabs running through both rock and fossil impressions, and mineral growth over the slabs that had occurred before discovery and preparation, as evidence that the feathers were original.[74] Spetner et al. then attempted to show that the cracks would have naturally propagated through their postulated cement layer,[76] but neglected to account for the fact that the cracks were old and had been filled with calcite, and thus were not able to propagate.[75] They also attempted to show the presence of cement on the London specimen through X-ray spectroscopy, and did find something that was not rock.[76] However, it was not cement, either, and is most probably from a fragment of silicone rubber left behind when molds were made of the specimen.[75] Their suggestions have not been taken seriously by palaeontologists, as their evidence was largely based on misunderstandings of geology, and they never discussed the other feather-bearing specimens, which have increased in number since then. Charig et al. reported a discolouration: a dark band between two layers of limestone – however, they say it is the product of sedimentation.[74] It is natural for limestone to take on the colour of its surroundings and most limestones are coloured (if not colour banded) to some degree[77] – the darkness was attributed to such impurities. They also mention that a complete absence of air bubbles in the rock slabs is further proof that the specimen is authentic.[74]
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Timminz on Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:13 pm

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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Viceroy63 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:24 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:
Controversy
Authenticity

Beginning in 1985, a group including astronomer Fred Hoyle and physicist Lee Spetner published a series of papers claiming that the feathers on the Berlin and London specimens of Archaeopteryx were forged.[70][71][72][73] Their claims were repudiated by Alan J. Charig and others at the British Museum (Natural History).[74] Most of their evidence for a forgery was based on unfamiliarity with the processes of lithification; for example, they proposed that based on the difference in texture associated with the feathers, feather impressions were applied to a thin layer of cement,[71] without realizing that feathers themselves would have caused a textural difference.[74] They also expressed disbelief that slabs would split so smoothly, or that one half of a slab containing fossils would have good preservation, but not the counterslab.[70][72] These, though, are common properties of Solnhofen fossils because the dead animals would fall onto hardened surfaces which would form a natural plane for the future slabs to split along, leaving the bulk of the fossil on one side and little on the other.[74] They also misinterpreted the fossils, claiming that the tail was forged as one large feather,[71] when this is visibly not the case.[74] In addition, they claimed that the other specimens of Archaeopteryx known at the time did not have feathers,[70][71] which is incorrect; the Maxberg and Eichstätt specimens have obvious feathers.[74] Finally, the motives they suggested for a forgery are not strong, and contradictory; one is that Richard Owen wanted to forge evidence in support of Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, which is unlikely given Owen's views toward Darwin and his theory. The other is that Owen wanted to set a trap for Darwin, hoping the latter would support the fossils so Owen could discredit him with the forgery; this is unlikely because Owen himself wrote a detailed paper on the London specimen, so such an action would certainly backfire.[75]

Charig et al. pointed to the presence of hairline cracks in the slabs running through both rock and fossil impressions, and mineral growth over the slabs that had occurred before discovery and preparation, as evidence that the feathers were original.[74] Spetner et al. then attempted to show that the cracks would have naturally propagated through their postulated cement layer,[76] but neglected to account for the fact that the cracks were old and had been filled with calcite, and thus were not able to propagate.[75] They also attempted to show the presence of cement on the London specimen through X-ray spectroscopy, and did find something that was not rock.[76] However, it was not cement, either, and is most probably from a fragment of silicone rubber left behind when molds were made of the specimen.[75] Their suggestions have not been taken seriously by palaeontologists, as their evidence was largely based on misunderstandings of geology, and they never discussed the other feather-bearing specimens, which have increased in number since then. Charig et al. reported a discolouration: a dark band between two layers of limestone – however, they say it is the product of sedimentation.[74] It is natural for limestone to take on the colour of its surroundings and most limestones are coloured (if not colour banded) to some degree[77] – the darkness was attributed to such impurities. They also mention that a complete absence of air bubbles in the rock slabs is further proof that the specimen is authentic.[74]


Yes Jones; All of those numbers in brackets "[74]" for example is where you would find those words and claims.

"they say it is the product of sedimentation.[74]"

No one is arguing with me or some creationist institute. But rather with a whole host of authorities who have written whole books on the subject. That a Creationist Institute is presenting these facts should not make a difference to the truly enlightened scientist among us. To reject it because it is a Creationist Institute making the presentation is simply ignorance and book burning mentality. This goes for everyone, not just jones. I just happen to use this comment to respond to everyone at once.
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