An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

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What are the facts? Please keep an open mind and read the article first before casting your vote.

While there is certainly proof that mutations do occur in nature; There is absolutely no real evidence to support the theory of evolution at this time (for over the past 150 years of "Dino-digging"). Including the sedimentary column.
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There probably is evidence to support this theory, yet scientist are at a loss to explain it appropriately.
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Scientist are great at making shit up when they have no evidence to prove something that is false to begin with.
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I believe in Santa. He's a real person that lives all the way deep at the north pole and brings me presents every year. The presents prove that he's real. I also leave him milk and cookies to snack on and while I don't ever see him, I just know with all my heart, that he is the one who eats all the cookies and milk. Or, I wish I had a dogasaur like Dino.
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Total votes : 65

Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:43 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
crispybits wrote:OK rephrase the questions to how much could they charge for those lessons. Smart-Alec :-P


(1) Do the prices for those jobs truly reflect their relevant knowledge and skills for the job? Or are prices part of the conspiracy?

(2) Are the researchers at the Creationist Institute well paid?
Assume that their price of labor is the same as the non-creationist scientists. What then, crispytbits, what then?

Can a free market in America answer and solve this question?


--Andy


Prices enable the clearer expectation of profit, and profit is an end which has many means. How many goods and of what kind are you willing and capable of exchanging voluntarily?
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:44 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
crispybits wrote:Again you miss the real point Viceroy, any organisation seeking the truth doesn't start of from any preconceptions and look to make reality fit into whatever those are, they start off from a totally blank slate and whatever they find and can prove is the truth.


So why don't Evolutionist follow that rule? Why is the fact that Archeology, History, Prophecy and revealed knowledge that support the Biblical claim of creation not looked into and rejected by Darwinist, all the while the Darwinian Hoax is perpetrated on a gullible humanity and boasted as fact?

First and foremost, stop pretending that this is about the BIBLICAL view of creation versus science. It is rather a debate between a portion of folks within Christianity, almost all not scientists and most of the scientists not trained in either biology OR geology and the rest of Christianity, virtually all Jews, most people subscribing to other religions and a smattering of atheists and folks who subscribe to no particular belief.

Get that clear, because it is the very firm truth.. and denying that means you are working with a whole range of pretense.

Beyond that, every time young earthers are given the opportunity to present their "new found data", it is just wrong. I have myself more than a few times gone through various postings on the Institute for Creation Research, back when it was still based in Pasadena mostly, and critiqued them. Mostly, they don't even meet the standards of real science. Two classics are the "study" of the spiney anteater, where among other things these "wonderful scientists" claimed that they had "fully studied" a particular area and not found any evidence of a link.. there for it was just more proof that evolution was wrong.

A. Four years of not finding something is not enough to prove much of anything. I have been party to studies that have gone on for over 50 years.. and STILL found new never before seen species or data. Saying you did not find anything in a 4 year study just means that that particular study did not find anything in 4 years. year 5 might have yielded results.. or year 55. ONLY someone pretty much ignoring the scientific process would even begin to make such an assertion. Dr Morris ilk make these types of claims over and over and over. Further, there were no published details about methods or procedures. A LOT of studies fail due to poor design.

B. evolutionists are also stumped. See, lacking data means they don't have the answer.. not that there is no answer. The proof of the evolution of the spiney anteater is the presence of the spiney anteater. The puzzle is how it got there. Saying "insert God" might make a nice philosophical debate, but for science you have to have someting provable. That isn't.What makes it less than science and into something actually dangerous is that folks like them and you want to claim not just that you see this gap as a problem.. and think there might be another answer than provided already, you want to claim that this lack of an answer is equal to proof that the entire group of theories combined into evolutionary thinking are wrong, simply because there is no easy, ready answer... yet to this question (or many others).

Viceroy63 wrote:There is evidence for God but anti-God scientist such as yourselves just don't want to hear it. For example...

NIce try, but no.

And you might ask yourself why this bit of utterly false information is so important to folks like Dr Morris to promote? WHY do they persist in claiming that those who accept evolution, scientific basis for proving facts and so forth are necessarily against God, atheistic or worse? In fact, the opposite is very true. Most scientists do have faith, do believe in God in one way or another. In the US, this is most commonly Christianity and Judaism, though other religions are gaining ground numerically.
Viceroy63 wrote:Thousands of years before Scientist figured out that it is best to wash your hands before going from patient to patient, the Bible was already claiming this. Untold thousand of woman giving birth would die because Doctors went from one patient to the next and never washed their hands.

The Bible said this, so did Asians, so did south American groups... etc, etc. Some things are just fact.

HOWEVER, you present and interesting concept when you talk about the ignorance. See, it was the western idea that they had to ignore anything not fully western and of their narrow vision of Christianity, in particular that has led to a lot of these errors. Interestingly, that problem was not seen as often where Christianity was not begun.

Viceroy63 wrote:This is evidence of a God revealing knowledge that a people of their time could not have gained in any other way. This is rejected evidence by Anti-God scientist such as yourself.
NO, its evidence of you reciting something without bothering to verify if it actually is even true.

Many other cultures with no knowledge of the Bible, none-the-less firmly believed in cleanliness. In many cases, they had knowledge, still have knowledge of medicines and antibiotic substances that western "scientists" ignored for a long time because their arrogant assumption was that no "primitive" and particularly not Christian society could know much of anything worthwhile.

Viceroy63 wrote:The following can be read in it's entirety at...
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/scienti ... html#SFB06


LOL... not right now, I have to go, maybe later.

In the meantime, how about you visit just a few of the many websites to which we have directed you.. websites that show what you claim to be true just isn't.
Viceroy63 wrote:Moses
Acts 7:22 tells us that …“Moses was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians…” Yet scientific ignorance is conspicuous by its absence in the first five books of the Bible, written by Moses approximately 1491-1451 B.C. In fact the Torah (or law of Moses) not only reveals advanced principles and knowledge about hygiene, quarantine and sanitation far superior to that possessed by the Egyptians and other ancient societies of that day, but also far exceeded medical standards practiced as recently as 100 years ago. Where did Moses get this advanced information?

You are really stepping into ignorance here, sorry. The Egyptians are known to have done brain surgery.


I can go on about THAT topic a lot, but right now, I have to go... so until later....
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:46 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
crispybits wrote:OK rephrase the questions to how much could they charge for those lessons. Smart-Alec :-P


(1) Do the prices for those jobs truly reflect their relevant knowledge and skills for the job? Or are prices part of the conspiracy?

(2) Are the researchers at the Creationist Institute well paid?
Assume that their price of labor is the same as the non-creationist scientists. What then, crispytbits, what then?

Can a free market in America answer and solve this question?


--Andy


Prices enable the clearer expectation of profit, and profit is an end which has many means. How many goods and of what kind are you willing and capable of exchanging voluntarily?

Actually, you are on to something here in your jesting. Don't have time right now, but when you "follow the money".. you find that this entire movement is supported by sources other than churches, and that a lot of the criticisms are firmly and "ironically" targeting things that are just rather inconvenient to certain parties financial interest. I am not sure that you can still follow the trail, though.. these folks are pretty adept at hiding their true intentions.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:51 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Prices enable the clearer expectation of profit, and profit is an end which has many means. How many goods and of what kind are you willing and capable of exchanging voluntarily?


Here are my detailed notes:

show



--Andy
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:07 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
crispybits wrote:OK rephrase the questions to how much could they charge for those lessons. Smart-Alec :-P


(1) Do the prices for those jobs truly reflect their relevant knowledge and skills for the job? Or are prices part of the conspiracy?

(2) Are the researchers at the Creationist Institute well paid?
Assume that their price of labor is the same as the non-creationist scientists. What then, crispytbits, what then?

Can a free market in America answer and solve this question?


--Andy


Prices enable the clearer expectation of profit, and profit is an end which has many means. How many goods and of what kind are you willing and capable of exchanging voluntarily?

Actually, you are on to something here in your jesting. Don't have time right now, but when you "follow the money".. you find that this entire movement is supported by sources other than churches, and that a lot of the criticisms are firmly and "ironically" targeting things that are just rather inconvenient to certain parties financial interest. I am not sure that you can still follow the trail, though.. these folks are pretty adept at hiding their true intentions.


You speak of consumer preferences from a particular target market! The market process becomes clearer.

The price of research at production facilities like the Creationist Institute largely depends on the demand of their consumers (e.g. the donors and the consumers of retail goods like Creationist books and articles). If I had to guess, their demand is largely driven by their desire to exchange for what they want to believe.

As crispybits already hints at, the Creation-scientists could not supply their services at prices similar to the prices supplied by physicists, biologists, and other physical scientists. Why? Because the physical scientists are in a completely different market which requires a different set of knowledge and skills.

In other words, if the creationist cannot supply such a price, then obviously he lacks the knowledge and skills that are relevant to that particular science.

Therefore, should the creationists' arguments and articles be taken seriously by the science-minded community?
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:09 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Prices enable the clearer expectation of profit, and profit is an end which has many means. How many goods and of what kind are you willing and capable of exchanging voluntarily?


Here are my detailed notes:

show



--Andy


My political friends will sort you out soon, sir.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:11 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:My political friends will sort you out soon, sir.


God willing. Notice how I upgraded in that last snapshot?


--Andy
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:31 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
As crispybits already hints at, the Creation-scientists could not supply their services at prices similar to the prices supplied by physicists, biologists, and other physical scientists. Why? Because the physical scientists are in a completely different market which requires a different set of knowledge and skills.

Yes, but the major "market" for basic biology and geology type research is the public, government and university funding, because there is little direct, immediately apparent profit to be found.

Combatting ideas that will force major change in business practices, particularly global warming and oil, but also some other issues (many land uses are "stifled" by the endangered species act, for example) has absolute and definite profit value.

BigBallinStalin wrote:
In other words, if the creationist cannot supply such a price, then obviously he lacks the knowledge and skills that are relevant to that particular science.
Irrelevant. They are creating a new science, training up a new generation that is ignorant of the fact that they have been duped with lies.

Anyone posting here may well be a troll, but there are plenty of real people out there who actually believe that they know the truth and science is basically wrong, not to be trusted. THAT is the goal of, not Dr Morris himself (he is a "true believer") -- have a generation or two trained up and convinced to distrust basic science and the "scientific establishment" (even though its much less homogeneous than they wish to believe).

BigBallinStalin wrote:Therefore, should the creationists' arguments and articles be taken seriously by the science-minded community?

We ignore them to our perile. This belief system has been growing and spreading and is currently causing headaches all over. Just the fact that every state is facing repeated challenges to textbook approval, has to pay for repeated court battles.. its one thing to fight legitimate debates, something else to be forced to waste time on the above type garbage.. or actually even more slick stuff.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby tzor on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:13 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:Four years of not finding something is not enough to prove much of anything.


It took 50 years to find the "God-Damned" particle, renamed the "God" particle by the scientific papers, properly known as the Higgs Boson, and we aren't absolutely sure it was found.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby chang50 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:29 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Therefore, should the creationists' arguments and articles be taken seriously by the science-minded community?

We ignore them to our perile. This belief system has been growing and spreading and is currently causing headaches all over. Just the fact that every state is facing repeated challenges to textbook approval, has to pay for repeated court battles.. its one thing to fight legitimate debates, something else to be forced to waste time on the above type garbage.. or actually even more slick stuff.[/quote]


To the best of my knowledge these repeated legal battles are only happening in the US,does anyone have an answer as to why this should be happening only in one modern,developed democracy and not in the rest?
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Frigidus on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:37 am

chang50 wrote:[qoute="PLAYER57832"]
BigBallinStalin wrote:Therefore, should the creationists' arguments and articles be taken seriously by the science-minded community?

We ignore them to our perile. This belief system has been growing and spreading and is currently causing headaches all over. Just the fact that every state is facing repeated challenges to textbook approval, has to pay for repeated court battles.. its one thing to fight legitimate debates, something else to be forced to waste time on the above type garbage.. or actually even more slick stuff.



To the best of my knowledge these repeated legal battles are only happening in the US,does anyone have an answer as to why this should be happening only in one modern,developed democracy and not in the rest?[/quote]

Easy, we have a lot more people who are religious to the point of zealotry than most other first world countries. Anything that is construed as going against some facet of that religion is going to be fought against tooth and nail.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby betiko on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:04 am

Frigidus wrote:
chang50 wrote:[qoute="PLAYER57832"]
BigBallinStalin wrote:Therefore, should the creationists' arguments and articles be taken seriously by the science-minded community?

We ignore them to our perile. This belief system has been growing and spreading and is currently causing headaches all over. Just the fact that every state is facing repeated challenges to textbook approval, has to pay for repeated court battles.. its one thing to fight legitimate debates, something else to be forced to waste time on the above type garbage.. or actually even more slick stuff.



To the best of my knowledge these repeated legal battles are only happening in the US,does anyone have an answer as to why this should be happening only in one modern,developed democracy and not in the rest?


Easy, we have a lot more people who are religious to the point of zealotry than most other first world countries. Anything that is construed as going against some facet of that religion is going to be fought against tooth and nail.[/quote]

just look at how many times obama had to make reference to god in his speach the other day... dang masons.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby chang50 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:07 am

Frigidus wrote:
chang50 wrote:[qoute="PLAYER57832"]
BigBallinStalin wrote:Therefore, should the creationists' arguments and articles be taken seriously by the science-minded community?

We ignore them to our perile. This belief system has been growing and spreading and is currently causing headaches all over. Just the fact that every state is facing repeated challenges to textbook approval, has to pay for repeated court battles.. its one thing to fight legitimate debates, something else to be forced to waste time on the above type garbage.. or actually even more slick stuff.



To the best of my knowledge these repeated legal battles are only happening in the US,does anyone have an answer as to why this should be happening only in one modern,developed democracy and not in the rest?


Easy, we have a lot more people who are religious to the point of zealotry than most other first world countries. Anything that is construed as going against some facet of that religion is going to be fought against tooth and nail.[/quote]

I can sort of understand why this would be true of underdeveloped countries,I guess what intrigues me is why do you have so many religious zealots in a country that is so advanced in many other areas?Can anyone explain this paradox?
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby betiko on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:03 am

The founding fathers of the nation were all masons. To become mason, you need to believe in (a) god. When they refer to god it's technically any god, even if the nation is traditionally protestant. The constitution has this religious orientation, so does the role of president (god help me please god bless america and all that crap). You basically can't become president if you are atheist in the eyes of the public.. Also america is very liberal towards any so called "religion" and extremists. I guess scientology, mormons ect have very influencial lobbies. you end up with the possibility of learning creationism in public schools for parents who ask for it..
Last edited by betiko on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Dukasaur on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:04 am

chang50 wrote:
Frigidus wrote:Easy, we have a lot more people who are religious to the point of zealotry than most other first world countries. Anything that is construed as going against some facet of that religion is going to be fought against tooth and nail.


I can sort of understand why this would be true of underdeveloped countries,I guess what intrigues me is why do you have so many religious zealots in a country that is so advanced in many other areas?Can anyone explain this paradox?

I think because the churches were never targetted in any of America's political upheavals. In most of the developed countries, there was a revolution at some point where the churches supported the old order and were badly mauled as a result. The French Revolution is the most obvious example, but less blatant examples can be found for all the others. In Japan there was a wave of secularization that accompanied the end of the Shogunate. In England there was a series of steps that began with Henry VIII's divorce, continued through various changes of reign and the Civil War, and finally culminated in the Glorious Revolution, each step in that convoluted history incrementally undermining the powers of the churches. In most of Europe, there were the Revolutions of 1830, successful to a greater or lesser degree in Italy, Germany, France, Belgium, Poland, Austria, and Greece, and all of them undermining the established order which included the official churches.

In America, religion was not an issue in either the Revolution or the Civil War. Separation of Church and State has insulated the churches from the anti-clericalism that swept Europe and Japan at various times. Americans, despite a very admirable history of distrusting governments and other elites, have never extended that mistrust to religion. Of course, now that religion in America has gotten politically organised, all that will change. I expect within the next two or three generation there will be an anticlerical revolution in the U.S. Unfortunately, most of us will be dead by then and won't care.
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