An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

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What are the facts? Please keep an open mind and read the article first before casting your vote.

While there is certainly proof that mutations do occur in nature; There is absolutely no real evidence to support the theory of evolution at this time (for over the past 150 years of "Dino-digging"). Including the sedimentary column.
18
27%
There probably is evidence to support this theory, yet scientist are at a loss to explain it appropriately.
17
26%
Scientist are great at making shit up when they have no evidence to prove something that is false to begin with.
8
12%
I believe in Santa. He's a real person that lives all the way deep at the north pole and brings me presents every year. The presents prove that he's real. I also leave him milk and cookies to snack on and while I don't ever see him, I just know with all my heart, that he is the one who eats all the cookies and milk. Or, I wish I had a dogasaur like Dino.
23
35%
 
Total votes : 66

Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby AAFitz on Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:41 am

PROFITS wrote:
Neoteny wrote:#2 isn't even a thing. The rest seem to be admissions of ignorance. "I think this is an assumption," is pretty much equivalent to "I haven't bothered to look at any evidence." It often goes hand in hand with, "All I know about the subject I read about from secondhand sources." General consensus on this subject is that people feel capable of talking about technical concept with literally zero knowledge and an inverse amount of smugness. These people are usually dismissed as intellectual cabbages.

Is that funny enough, PROFITS?


There isn't any evidence of spontaneous generation for me to look at. What evidence are you talking about? I was forced to study this stuff throughout all my childhood and college as well. I've yet to see any evidence for spontaneous generation. Or any of the other things I mentioned. When scientists use words like "we believe" and "it is assumed", and "if" there should be a bell that rings off in your head at some point saying "hey, this may not be true".


Indeed, and they believe and have assumed a great number of things, but all because the overwhelming evidence over hundreds of years of study, have led them to that conclusion.

A bell should prbobably go off in your head that says, "hey, maybe they are on to something here" I mean, they are the same people that invented space ships, xray machines, mri machines and little robots driving around Mars.

Your guy's been reading out of a book every Sunday....ringing bells.
Which incidentally, are caused by sound waves. Scientists assume and believe they exist too.

Bring, Bring. Time to wake up.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Dukasaur on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:46 am

PROFITS wrote:Looks like things haven't changed much in these kind of arguments. A whole lot of insults and not many answered questions. I'm done. Hope you have a great life and let go of whatever it is that causes the bitterness in you.

Are you surprised? All the questions you ask have been posed in one form or another, by previous posters, and have been very thoroughly answered by other posters. Then you waltz in and demand that the same questions be answered yet again! Basically, you're saying that you time is too valuable to read what is already there, but other people's time is not valuable, so they can just spend their Saturday afternoon retyping things they've already typed, just to suit your whim. Do you not see how unspeakably rude that is? Or are you lost in narcissism and really do think that your time really is more valuable than everyone else's? As ye sow, so ye shall reap. I'm not at all surprised that your rudeness has been responded to with more rudeness. If anything, I'm surprised that it hasn't been greater.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Viceroy63 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:57 am

AAFitz wrote:
PROFITS wrote:
Neoteny wrote:#2 isn't even a thing. The rest seem to be admissions of ignorance. "I think this is an assumption," is pretty much equivalent to "I haven't bothered to look at any evidence." It often goes hand in hand with, "All I know about the subject I read about from secondhand sources." General consensus on this subject is that people feel capable of talking about technical concept with literally zero knowledge and an inverse amount of smugness. These people are usually dismissed as intellectual cabbages.

Is that funny enough, PROFITS?


There isn't any evidence of spontaneous generation for me to look at. What evidence are you talking about? I was forced to study this stuff throughout all my childhood and college as well. I've yet to see any evidence for spontaneous generation. Or any of the other things I mentioned. When scientists use words like "we believe" and "it is assumed", and "if" there should be a bell that rings off in your head at some point saying "hey, this may not be true".


Indeed, and they believe and have assumed a great number of things, but all because the overwhelming evidence over hundreds of years of study, have led them to that conclusion.

A bell should prbobably go off in your head that says, "hey, maybe they are on to something here" I mean, they are the same people that invented space ships, xray machines, mri machines and little robots driving around Mars.

Your guy's been reading out of a book every Sunday....ringing bells.
Which incidentally, are caused by sound waves. Scientists assume and believe they exist too.

Bring, Bring. Time to wake up.


How can you possibly be so arrogant and so ignorant for lack of not saying the word Stupid! Read the damn article and do not be so prejudice. All your life you were taught a lie and so naturally it should be true???

All the evidence that proves the theory of evolution comes from the fossil records and from nowhere else. All the fossil evidence is fake and none of it true. Read it for yourself...

"Less than two months later, in 1861, Haberlein had another specimen for sale, but this time it was of the entire creature except for its head."
http://tccsa.tc/articles/hoax.html

OK; Archaeopteryx is a hundred year old Hoax. The same person found only two specimens within two months time and in a hundred years no other Archaeopteryx has ever been found. Why is that? Yet it has been sold and taught to millions and for millions.

This whole Thread is filled with scientific evidence that all the presentations that prove the theory of evolution is false and misleading.

And for the record; Assumptions are not science. So when any Scientist or teacher of science start to use those words like Belief, then yes, Bells should go off in one's head. Big Ass Fire Alarm Bells!

Even Religious Belief's are based on facts! And not theories.
The empty tomb of Jesus is a fact or else his bones would be on displayed today.
Last edited by Viceroy63 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:08 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby crispybits on Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:08 am

Excuse me? WE'RE arrogant when we disagree with you? Aren't YOU then one claiming some sort of privileged knowledge from a being orders of magnitude of orders of magnitude greater than anything we can even imagine? Aren't YOU the one claiming that you know better than everyone else? But WE'RE arrogant? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby AndyDufresne on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:08 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:This whole Thread is filled with scientific evidence that all the presentations that prove the theory of evolution is false and misleading.





--Andy
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Frigidus on Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:08 pm

OK; Archaeopteryx is a hundred year old Hoax. The same person found only two specimens within two months time and in a hundred years no other Archaeopteryx has ever been found. Why is that? Yet it has been sold and taught to millions and for millions.


All right, then someone should demonstrate that it is a hoax rather than just speculate about it. It isn't like we've never had a fossil turn out to be something different than we initially thought it was. As soon as someone provides evidence that it isn't what it is claimed to be I will stop regarding it as a missing link. I still wouldn't discard evolution all together, as fossils are not the foundation upon which evolution rests, but I would discard this one concrete example.

Viceroy63 wrote:And for the record; Assumptions are not science. So when any Scientist or teacher of science start to use those words like Belief, then yes, Bells should go off in one's head. Big Ass Fire Alarm Bells!


The thing is, we can never say that we know something to be true in science. Anything can be disproven, so we can only say that this is what is believed to be true based on the evidence we currently have. Now, this is a world of difference from faith in a religion, but sometimes the same word has multiple meanings.

Viceroy63 wrote:Even Religious Belief's are based on facts! And not theories.
The empty tomb of Jesus is a fact or else his bones would be on displayed today.


It is rare that I actually laugh out loud over something on these forums. Thanks for that.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Viceroy63 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:36 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:This whole Thread is filled with scientific evidence that all the presentations that prove the theory of evolution is false and misleading.





--Andy


Yes Andy; Stay in the Lounge. It's safer there. And you don't need to know what is happening here. OK.

Frigidus wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:And for the record; Assumptions are not science. So when any Scientist or teacher of science start to use those words like Belief, then yes, Bells should go off in one's head. Big Ass Fire Alarm Bells!


The thing is, we can never say that we know something to be true in science. Anything can be disproven, so we can only say that this is what is believed to be true based on the evidence we currently have. Now, this is a world of difference from faith in a religion, but sometimes the same word has multiple meanings.


That has got to be the biggest dump of crap I ever read. If anything can be disproved then there are no facts in existence at all. Science is the search for truth. The truth are the facts and facts can not be disproved. Therefore your statement is false. Just like the false statement that Man evolved from a common ancestors of the monkeys. A Theory with no foundation or evidence.

While the Holy Bible is backed up by Archeology, History and Science facts.

Frigidus wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:Even Religious Belief's are based on facts! And not theories.
The empty tomb of Jesus is a fact or else his bones would be on displayed today.


It is rare that I actually laugh out loud over something on these forums. Thanks for that.


Every religion has an Icon and when the icon is a dead person they all have a tomb to be worshiped. Why does Christianity not have a tomb. You mean to tell me that Christians went into persecution right from the start on a foundationless new religion. That It occurred to absolutely no one to just dig up some old bones and present a clever hoax of the Jesus tomb? Like Darwinist do all the time with Archaeopteryx Hoax, Tiltdown Man Hoax, The Horse Exhibit Hoax, Lucy Hoax, and that new one that has yet to show any bones at all, Australopithecus Sebida Hoax.

So laugh all you want because I agree, Ignorance is a funny thing to see in others. So long as it is not me laughing in ignorance.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Frigidus on Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:07 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
Frigidus wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:And for the record; Assumptions are not science. So when any Scientist or teacher of science start to use those words like Belief, then yes, Bells should go off in one's head. Big Ass Fire Alarm Bells!


The thing is, we can never say that we know something to be true in science. Anything can be disproven, so we can only say that this is what is believed to be true based on the evidence we currently have. Now, this is a world of difference from faith in a religion, but sometimes the same word has multiple meanings.


That has got to be the biggest dump of crap I ever read. If anything can be disproved then there are no facts in existence at all.


No way you are just realizing this. Surely somebody has told you this before? While reality might be a certain way, we can never be entirely sure that we have a firm grasp on what that reality is. How many times has what we previously thought to be true turned out to be only partially correct or just flat out wrong? Science is a constant work in progress.

Viceroy63 wrote:Therefore your statement is false. Just like the false statement that Man evolved from a common ancestors of the monkeys. A Theory with no foundation or evidence.


I'm still waiting for a creationist to win that Nobel Prize for demonstrating that the mountain of evidence supporting evolution is flawed. Shit, you should do it if you see things so clearly, you'd be famous.

Viceroy63 wrote:While the Holy Bible is backed up by Archeology, History and Science facts.


Don't you make me laugh again! Go ahead and lay some of that archeology on me, I can't wait.

Viceroy63 wrote:
Frigidus wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:Even Religious Belief's are based on facts! And not theories.
The empty tomb of Jesus is a fact or else his bones would be on displayed today.


It is rare that I actually laugh out loud over something on these forums. Thanks for that.


Every religion has an Icon and when the icon is a dead person they all have a tomb to be worshiped. Why does Christianity not have a tomb. You mean to tell me that Christians went into persecution right from the start on a foundationless new religion. That It occurred to absolutely no one to just dig up some old bones and present a clever hoax of the Jesus tomb?


Cults are funny that way. They'll do all sorts of crazy shit once they've bought in, they'll even sip the Kool-Aid.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Neoteny on Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:13 pm

PROFITS wrote:
Neoteny wrote:#2 isn't even a thing. The rest seem to be admissions of ignorance. "I think this is an assumption," is pretty much equivalent to "I haven't bothered to look at any evidence." It often goes hand in hand with, "All I know about the subject I read about from secondhand sources." General consensus on this subject is that people feel capable of talking about technical concept with literally zero knowledge and an inverse amount of smugness. These people are usually dismissed as intellectual cabbages.

Is that funny enough, PROFITS?


There isn't any evidence of spontaneous generation for me to look at. What evidence are you talking about? I was forced to study this stuff throughout all my childhood and college as well. I've yet to see any evidence for spontaneous generation. Or any of the other things I mentioned. When scientists use words like "we believe" and "it is assumed", and "if" there should be a bell that rings off in your head at some point saying "hey, this may not be true".


There's plenty of evidence for abiogenesis, which is the term you mean to use here, since spontaneous generation is actually a related, but whole different thing. Something to do with cooked milk; I dunno. Anyway, the great thing about evidence is that a piece of evidence can support many theoretical frameworks. For example, the very existence of life is evidence for abiogenesis. That same existence of life is evidence for special creation. It is also evidence for theistic evolution. Another evidence for abiogenesis is the natural formation of amino acids and other organic compounds from basic chemical materials. Whether and how this fits into other nonscientific theories is beyond my knowledge and my ability to give a shit. But it fits very well into what we have empirically observed about life. Things that we have not empirically observed: god, magic, and aliens.

So, saying "There isn't any evidence of spontaneous generation for me to look at," reveals a distinct ignorance of the concepts of scientific inquiry and really brings into question your integrity when you say you were forced to study it throughout your childhood and college. Either you weren't forced, or you didn't actually study it, because you don't seem to have learned anything resembling an elementary knowledge of the topic. So, we'll assume this answers your first assertion.

Assertion #2: still isn't a thing. Darwin himself discussed this.

Charles Darwin wrote:But if (and oh! what a big if!) we could conceive in some warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, lights, heat, electricity, etc. present, that a protein compound was chemically formed ready to undergo still more complex changes, at the present day such matter would be instantly devoured or absorbed, which would not have been the case before living creatures were formed.


So it could have happened several times, but there isn't really a way to know. It only needed to happen once.

Assertion #3: Invertebrates giving rise to vertebrates. This sort of implies a further lack of knowledge about evolutionary branching. But I'll ignore that. What's important here is that there is a large amount of evidence indicating that invertebrates predated vertebrates, and a long chain of transitional forms with various types of neural arrangements that flow pretty smoothly from invertebrate to vertebrate body plans. Google would probably help you with this.

Assertion #4: I don't understand why creationists have so much trouble with this. Even from a special creation perspective, we can be argued to all be related. DNA is pretty easy to prove, and there is a relative amount of sharing between species. God as the ultimate scientist building with conservative tools still implies a relationship between all species. I've never understood why people get their panties in such massive, sweaty, tangled wads over this. They say smug things about uncles and mothers like it's so painfully insulting, and ignore the idea that being made out of dirt (metaphorically or otherwise) is not that much better. I'd rather be related to an orange tree than to you, for what that's worth.

Assertion #5: Again, divergence. We don't actually know that dinosaurs were all cold- or warm-blooded. Bone density isn't that hard to change genetically. Maybe this will help?
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby jak111 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:24 pm

I was going to read the first post fully, but stopped when I realized that you were a crazy raging religious nut pissed off because something speaks against what the bible suggests happened. You are now ranked just above the Westboro Baptist Church members. Which is not good.

Your title is pure irony. Both in the "An Unproven Hypothesis" and the "The Rise of Ignorance", let me explain why both are ironic. First I will start with your ignorance.
I'll even label this in sections to help you read it.

Your ignornace.

Have you ever done a science project? You know, the thing where you question something and then set out to prove it. There is a list you go on.
1.) Question.
2.) Back ground research.
3.) Hypothesis.
4.) Experiment.
5.) Analyze data.
6.) Conclusion.

As you can see, the hypothesis is only the third step and it's a pretty small step at that, it is taking an educated guess at what you believe the conclusion will be before you begin your experiment to prove or disprove it.

Now we continue on with you saying that it is taught like it is fact. Let me pull out a dictionary definition here.

Dictionary definition for the word Theory: "A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena. Most theories that are accepted by scientists have been repeatedly tested by experiments and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena"
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/theory

In case you have trouble understanding what a Theory is, it is a generally accepted but not PROVEN fact about an object/event/etc/etc. Thus it is not taught like it is 100% fact like a Law would be.
http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistry ... theory.htm
^ Use that site for Hypothesis, theory, and law if you wish.

=D> =D> =D> So far we have already proven you to be illiterate in all meanings of the term illiterate.
"Adjective
Unable to read or write.
Noun
A person who is unable to read or write.
Synonyms
unlettered - ignorant - uneducated - unlearned" =D> =D> =D>

But I am not finished with your ignorance yet.

[15] This foundationless theory of evolution is what is being taught as "fact" in children schools and Universities in the United States and around the world. And many so called "intellectual" people buy it with out ever really questioning the Theory. They simply accept it as fact. The fact is that if you don't accept this theory as fact, then you are looked down upon by the majority of the intellectual world as being ignorant of the so called facts of the so called "truth of evolution" or are just plain stupid. You take your pick.


This is my favourite part by you so far. We have seen that you are a religious ignorant nut, but you put down people who would rather try to use science to prove their Theory. While you follow the bible. Something that is not allowed to be questioned because of "religious freedom". Well to any who would argue that I am infringing on religious freedom, I'd like to take a moment here and point out the Freedom of Speech and Rights of Equality here. If he is bashing others who want to actually ask questions and find facts behind what they believe in he is going to have to put up with people who bash his religion for NOT asking questions and not finding proof.

(This whole few next paragraphs besides Viceroy, whom I do not care if he is offended by it do not read if you are easily offended or at least are one of the "Good" christians that do not go around bashing other people because they are not some hate mongering religious kind of being.)

So now we are here to ask a double standard. From the moment you are born into a heavy Christian family you are taught to follow the bible without question. There is no question to whether "god" exists, where he went, what he looks like, or the fact that supposedly to some christian beliefs that he banishes people to hell for being a homosexual, touching themselves, etc. But why does he banish people that he created? Why torture those that he created that are supposedly "perfect" in his eyes? The reason. Because if he exists he doesn't care. It is people twisting it to what they like and dislike as apposed to what god likes or dislikes. Have you spoken to him face to face with the ability to touch him and see him? If not, then you are following something off of which others have told you to be true with NO evidence to back up that he exists or that he is even a he at all.

You question scientists because they only dig up certain sites and find certain bones and not find other bones in between. Well unless you want to let them dig up every square inch of this ENTIRE world it is impossible to find every bit of evolution. Bones are scattered across the world and there are cities probably built on tons and tons of bones below.

But I refuse to get into a big debate with you or anyone else on religion because I am only met with ignorance and the same horse ____ that they use to protect themselves from real questions. Instead, I will give you the definition of a cult.

Cult:
"Noun
A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
Synonyms
worship - religion - adoration"

So to put it into simple terms, religion is just another word for a mass cult.

Finally the whole irony behind "An Unproven Hypothesis"

I am starting to believe that you do not fully grasp the English language every well. Of course it is unproven yet, they are still in the experimental/analyzing data part of the protect. That is why it is still known to us as a Theory and not a Law.

Now finally, I am done trying to explain to you where you are wrong, because frankly I feel the majority of my post will be ignored because your ignorance and self pride of what you believe you know much on the subject is too great to actually listen to people who can put many flaws into your argument.

Keep in mind, I am neither religious nor unreligious so when writing this entire post I have written it with a sense of being able to see from both sides of the religion part of the debate. Which you my friend cannot do sadly.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PROFITS on Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:05 pm

crispybits wrote:There's a big difference though - when a scientist says "we believe X" it's normally that they've either got [YouTube]decent theoretical maths or indirect empirical evidence that points towards something but doesn't prove it beyond all doubt, a good scientist will very rarely say that we know anything.[/YouTube]


As for spontaneous generation - if you're talking about the big bang then what science says is "we don't know what the hell caused it, we can't even work out the physics of it earlier than a few milliseconds after it happened yet" - science doesn't claim to know the cause at all - and if you think it does then you need to go back and look again at science because you misunderstood it. There's various hypotheses sure, but nothing that has come even remotely close to an evidential standard.


Contrast that with actual religious faith, which says "we believe X" and backs it up with..... a book written by primitive desert nomads around 2000 years ago and a warm fuzzy feeling that can't ever be demonstrated to anyone else at all. Sorry but if I have to choose one side or the other to trust has the better picture of reality, I'll trust the guys with the Hubble telescope and the Large Hadron Collider and the constant peer review and search for more information over the guys with a 2000 year old book and a warm fuzzy feeling inside.


It's normally = not a fact = faith based. decent theoretical maths or indirect empirical evidence that points towards something but doesn't prove it beyond all doubt = not a fact = faith based. IT'S OKAY TO HAVE A BELIEF. The problem is when you start running your mouth like we are debating FACTS against BELIEFS. We are debating BELIEFS against BELIEFS.

I never once mentioned "what caused it". Only show me proof that spontaneous generation happens. My belief is that there is not anything that can cause spontaneous generation because it's simply not possible. It didn't happen. So you admit nothing comes close to an evidential standard, yet you BELIEVE IN IT. IT IS A BELIEF.

What does religious faith have to do with our debate about whether macro evolution and/ or big bang are a belief or fact? There are thousands of religions and you choose 2000 years ago as your example. Sounds like you have a personal disliking to Christianity and it has blinded your mind. You'll pretty much believe in anything that is against Christianity no matter how ridiculous is the impression I'm getting.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PROFITS on Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:56 pm

AAFitz wrote:
PROFITS wrote:
Neoteny wrote:#2 isn't even a thing. The rest seem to be admissions of ignorance. "I think this is an assumption," is pretty much equivalent to "I haven't bothered to look at any evidence." It often goes hand in hand with, "All I know about the subject I read about from secondhand sources." General consensus on this subject is that people feel capable of talking about technical concept with literally zero knowledge and an inverse amount of smugness. These people are usually dismissed as intellectual cabbages.

Is that funny enough, PROFITS?


There isn't any evidence of spontaneous generation for me to look at. What evidence are you talking about? I was forced to study this stuff throughout all my childhood and college as well. I've yet to see any evidence for spontaneous generation. Or any of the other things I mentioned. When scientists use words like "we believe" and "it is assumed", and "if" there should be a bell that rings off in your head at some point saying "hey, this may not be true".


Indeed, and they believe and have assumed a great number of things, but all because the overwhelming evidence over hundreds of years of study, have led them to that conclusion.

A bell should prbobably go off in your head that says, "hey, maybe they are on to something here" I mean, they are the same people that invented space ships, xray machines, mri machines and little robots driving around Mars.

Your guy's been reading out of a book every Sunday....ringing bells.

This "overwhelming evidence" over hundreds of years is "overwhelming evidence" in their own mind. It is their "belief" that this is "evidence". I had a situation with an employee whom had "evidence" another employee was lying about a situation that would cost him his job, but she wouldn't tell me what it was. Of course I ignored her until she finally told me her "evidence" that when she asked him about it his eyes darted to the right as he answered her (meaning he was lying). This may be evidence to her, but not to me. Scientists and individuals of all kinds of different fields differ on what they believe is "evidence" for and against macro evolution and big bang.

The assumption that every person that had any major contribution to invent space ships, xray machines, mri machines, and little robots driving around Mars believes in macro evolution and or big bang is absurd. Where do you get this information from?

What does reading books on Sunday have anything to do with macro evolution and big bang being a belief and not a fact?

Which incidentally, are caused by sound waves. Scientists assume and believe they exist too.

Bring, Bring. Time to wake up.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:32 pm

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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PROFITS on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:13 pm

Frigidus wrote:
PROFITS wrote:
Neoteny wrote:#2 isn't even a thing. The rest seem to be admissions of ignorance. "I think this is an assumption," is pretty much equivalent to "I haven't bothered to look at any evidence." It often goes hand in hand with, "All I know about the subject I read about from secondhand sources." General consensus on this subject is that people feel capable of talking about technical concept with literally zero knowledge and an inverse amount of smugness. These people are usually dismissed as intellectual cabbages.

Is that funny enough, PROFITS?


There isn't any evidence of spontaneous generation for me to look at. What evidence are you talking about? I was forced to study this stuff throughout all my childhood and college as well. I've yet to see any evidence for spontaneous generation. Or any of the other things I mentioned. When scientists use words like "we believe" and "it is assumed", and "if" there should be a bell that rings off in your head at some point saying "hey, this may not be true".


Well, we've been able to create amino acids in a lab. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment I know it isn't quite the same as creating life, but if water, methane, ammonia, hydrogen, and electricity are all it takes to create the building blocks of proteins it isn't that hard to envision life being spontaneously created over time. As of right now, it is the best theory we have for how we came to be. I suppose it could be proven to be wrong, but so far I haven't heard any viable alternative theories.

As for "macroevolution", while we as a species haven't been around long enough to actually witness it there's plenty of evidence to suggest it occurs. One of my favorite examples is the mule. Mules are the impotent offspring of a horse and a donkey. They are the last remnant of two species that are diverging genetically. Now, while I'm sure you'll claim that this isn't macroevolution, there is not one person that would suggest that fish suddenly turn into squirrels or any crazy shit like that. There are a multitude of tiny steps that lead to great changes over vast stretches of time.


So it sounds to me like you are admitting that macro evolution and or big bang is a "belief" and not a "fact".

If so, would you have the integrity to not state these as facts while comparing it to intelligent design or young earth?

Would you have the decency to not insult others that don't share your beliefs?
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Frigidus on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:38 pm

PROFITS wrote:
Frigidus wrote:
PROFITS wrote:
Neoteny wrote:#2 isn't even a thing. The rest seem to be admissions of ignorance. "I think this is an assumption," is pretty much equivalent to "I haven't bothered to look at any evidence." It often goes hand in hand with, "All I know about the subject I read about from secondhand sources." General consensus on this subject is that people feel capable of talking about technical concept with literally zero knowledge and an inverse amount of smugness. These people are usually dismissed as intellectual cabbages.

Is that funny enough, PROFITS?


There isn't any evidence of spontaneous generation for me to look at. What evidence are you talking about? I was forced to study this stuff throughout all my childhood and college as well. I've yet to see any evidence for spontaneous generation. Or any of the other things I mentioned. When scientists use words like "we believe" and "it is assumed", and "if" there should be a bell that rings off in your head at some point saying "hey, this may not be true".


Well, we've been able to create amino acids in a lab. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment I know it isn't quite the same as creating life, but if water, methane, ammonia, hydrogen, and electricity are all it takes to create the building blocks of proteins it isn't that hard to envision life being spontaneously created over time. As of right now, it is the best theory we have for how we came to be. I suppose it could be proven to be wrong, but so far I haven't heard any viable alternative theories.

As for "macroevolution", while we as a species haven't been around long enough to actually witness it there's plenty of evidence to suggest it occurs. One of my favorite examples is the mule. Mules are the impotent offspring of a horse and a donkey. They are the last remnant of two species that are diverging genetically. Now, while I'm sure you'll claim that this isn't macroevolution, there is not one person that would suggest that fish suddenly turn into squirrels or any crazy shit like that. There are a multitude of tiny steps that lead to great changes over vast stretches of time.


So it sounds to me like you are admitting that macro evolution and or big bang is a "belief" and not a "fact".

If so, would you have the integrity to not state these as facts while comparing it to intelligent design or young earth?

Would you have the decency to not insult others that don't share your beliefs?


No, I would not compare the two. One of the two world views uses the evidence we have available to us to theorize the most accurate model possible, and is constantly changing based on new discoveries. The other is a bunch of nonsense made up by animal sacrificing, non-virgin stoning, slave having desert nomads thousands of years ago with literally nothing to back it up. The only way that the world that we know is only five thousand years old is if 1) something(s) went to incredible lengths to deceive us, making the universe appear billions of years old or 2) the world that I know is an illusion, and I can literally confirm nothing beyond my own existence. Even if evidence was revealed to me that suggested life was created by some celestial being, I would still be baffled by young earth creationism. There is no evidence of a world wide flood, there is no evidence that Hebrews were ever enslaved in Egypt, and there are no primary (or even any contemporary) sources that mention Jesus. Equating the level of faith needed to overlook all of this with the heavily supported theory of evolution is a slap in the face to evolutionary biologists and scientists as a whole.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby jonesthecurl on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:52 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
PROFITS wrote:
Neoteny wrote:#2 isn't even a thing. The rest seem to be admissions of ignorance. "I think this is an assumption," is pretty much equivalent to "I haven't bothered to look at any evidence." It often goes hand in hand with, "All I know about the subject I read about from secondhand sources." General consensus on this subject is that people feel capable of talking about technical concept with literally zero knowledge and an inverse amount of smugness. These people are usually dismissed as intellectual cabbages.

Is that funny enough, PROFITS?


There isn't any evidence of spontaneous generation for me to look at. What evidence are you talking about? I was forced to study this stuff throughout all my childhood and college as well. I've yet to see any evidence for spontaneous generation. Or any of the other things I mentioned. When scientists use words like "we believe" and "it is assumed", and "if" there should be a bell that rings off in your head at some point saying "hey, this may not be true".


Indeed, and they believe and have assumed a great number of things, but all because the overwhelming evidence over hundreds of years of study, have led them to that conclusion.

A bell should prbobably go off in your head that says, "hey, maybe they are on to something here" I mean, they are the same people that invented space ships, xray machines, mri machines and little robots driving around Mars.

Your guy's been reading out of a book every Sunday....ringing bells.
Which incidentally, are caused by sound waves. Scientists assume and believe they exist too.

Bring, Bring. Time to wake up.


How can you possibly be so arrogant and so ignorant for lack of not saying the word Stupid! Read the damn article and do not be so prejudice. All your life you were taught a lie and so naturally it should be true???

All the evidence that proves the theory of evolution comes from the fossil records and from nowhere else. All the fossil evidence is fake and none of it true. Read it for yourself...

"Less than two months later, in 1861, Haberlein had another specimen for sale, but this time it was of the entire creature except for its head."
http://tccsa.tc/articles/hoax.html

OK; Archaeopteryx is a hundred year old Hoax. The same person found only two specimens within two months time and in a hundred years no other Archaeopteryx has ever been found. Why is that? Yet it has been sold and taught to millions and for millions.

This whole Thread is filled with scientific evidence that all the presentations that prove the theory of evolution is false and misleading.

And for the record; Assumptions are not science. So when any Scientist or teacher of science start to use those words like Belief, then yes, Bells should go off in one's head. Big Ass Fire Alarm Bells!

Even Religious Belief's are based on facts! And not theories.
The empty tomb of Jesus is a fact or else his bones would be on displayed today.


Still waiting for your evidence that Jesus existed.
Lack of bones proves that King Arthur will rise again too.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby premio53 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:55 pm

Frigidus, you claim "there is no evidence of a world wide flood." You are either not telling the truth or are ignorant. Here is some proof.

1. Over 500 Flood legends from all parts of the world have been found. Most have similarities to the Genesis account.

2. The top 3,000 feet of Mt. Everest (26,000 –29,000 feet) is made up of sedimentary rock packed with seashells and other oceandwelling animals.

3. Sedimentary rock is found all over the world. Sedimentary rock is formed in water.

4. Petrified clams in the closed position (found all over the world) testify to their rapid burial while they were still alive, even on top of Mount Everest.


Those are just a few of the facts involved that are best explained by a flood described in Genesis chapters 6 and 7. People choose to not believe in the Flood because it speaks of the judgment of God on sin (2 Peter 3:3–8).
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Neoteny on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:58 pm

It's amusing how desperately the ubertheists want to conflate science with religious belief. It's almost as if they are trying to bring us down to their level rather than elevate themselves. It's sad, really.
Napoleon Ier wrote:You people need to grow up to be honest.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby jonesthecurl on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:59 pm

Premio:

"Cinderella" is told around the world in almost every culture. Doesn't mean it's true.
And for the rest, go and look how mountains form. Or are all geologists in on the great scam too?
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Frigidus on Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:05 pm

premio53 wrote:1. Over 500 Flood legends from all parts of the world have been found. Most have similarities to the Genesis account.


Irrelevant. They're stories. There are a lot of stories about a lot of things that are correctly viewed as fiction.

2. The top 3,000 feet of Mt. Everest (26,000 –29,000 feet) is made up of sedimentary rock packed with seashells and other oceandwelling animals.


This wouldn't surprised me considering that Mt. Everest is the result of two tectonic plates colliding.

Image

There used to an ocean where the Himalayas now are.

3. Sedimentary rock is found all over the world. Sedimentary rock is formed in water.

OK.

4. Petrified clams in the closed position (found all over the world) testify to their rapid burial while they were still alive, even on top of Mount Everest.

I'm going to need a source for this...preferably a credible source.

premio53 wrote:People choose to not believe in the Flood because it speaks of the judgment of God on sin (2 Peter 3:3–8).


I assure you that is not the case with me.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby jonesthecurl on Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:08 pm

Were there dinosaurs in the arc?
Opinions please.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PROFITS on Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:10 pm

Neoteny wrote:
PROFITS wrote:
Neoteny wrote:#2 isn't even a thing. The rest seem to be admissions of ignorance. "I think this is an assumption," is pretty much equivalent to "I haven't bothered to look at any evidence." It often goes hand in hand with, "All I know about the subject I read about from secondhand sources." General consensus on this subject is that people feel capable of talking about technical concept with literally zero knowledge and an inverse amount of smugness. These people are usually dismissed as intellectual cabbages.

Is that funny enough, PROFITS?


There isn't any evidence of spontaneous generation for me to look at. What evidence are you talking about? I was forced to study this stuff throughout all my childhood and college as well. I've yet to see any evidence for spontaneous generation. Or any of the other things I mentioned. When scientists use words like "we believe" and "it is assumed", and "if" there should be a bell that rings off in your head at some point saying "hey, this may not be true".


There's plenty of evidence for abiogenesis, which is the term you mean to use here, since spontaneous generation is actually a related, but whole different thing. Something to do with cooked milk; I dunno. Anyway, the great thing about evidence is that a piece of evidence can support many theoretical frameworks. For example, the very existence of life is evidence for abiogenesis. That same existence of life is evidence for special creation. It is also evidence for theistic evolution. Another evidence for abiogenesis is the natural formation of amino acids and other organic compounds from basic chemical materials. Whether and how this fits into other nonscientific theories is beyond my knowledge and my ability to give a shit. But it fits very well into what we have empirically observed about life. Things that we have not empirically observed: god, magic, and aliens.

So, saying "There isn't any evidence of spontaneous generation for me to look at," reveals a distinct ignorance of the concepts of scientific inquiry and really brings into question your integrity when you say you were forced to study it throughout your childhood and college. Either you weren't forced, or you didn't actually study it, because you don't seem to have learned anything resembling an elementary knowledge of the topic. So, we'll assume this answers your first assertion.

Assertion #2: still isn't a thing. Darwin himself discussed this.

Charles Darwin wrote:But if (and oh! what a big if!) we could conceive in some warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, lights, heat, electricity, etc. present, that a protein compound was chemically formed ready to undergo still more complex changes, at the present day such matter would be instantly devoured or absorbed, which would not have been the case before living creatures were formed.


So it could have happened several times, but there isn't really a way to know. It only needed to happen once.

Assertion #3: Invertebrates giving rise to vertebrates. This sort of implies a further lack of knowledge about evolutionary branching. But I'll ignore that. What's important here is that there is a large amount of evidence indicating that invertebrates predated vertebrates, and a long chain of transitional forms with various types of neural arrangements that flow pretty smoothly from invertebrate to vertebrate body plans. Google would probably help you with this.

Assertion #4: I don't understand why creationists have so much trouble with this. Even from a special creation perspective, we can be argued to all be related. DNA is pretty easy to prove, and there is a relative amount of sharing between species. God as the ultimate scientist building with conservative tools still implies a relationship between all species. I've never understood why people get their panties in such massive, sweaty, tangled wads over this. They say smug things about uncles and mothers like it's so painfully insulting, and ignore the idea that being made out of dirt (metaphorically or otherwise) is not that much better. I'd rather be related to an orange tree than to you, for what that's worth.

Assertion #5: Again, divergence. We don't actually know that dinosaurs were all cold- or warm-blooded. Bone density isn't that hard to change genetically. Maybe this will help?


#1 Still no proof of spontaneous generation. Why would you question my integrity about having to learn evolution and big bang? Did you not go to school? It's taught at pretty much every public and private school from elementary through high school. Not to mention you are obligated to take classes in college to fulfill general ed that teach on the subject. For various majors, the classes required to take also teach further on the subject.

#2 The physical portion of any book that states spontaneous generation happening one time is a thing. Darwin's quote only shows that he is taking a wild leap of faith.

#3 You start off with insinuating my claim that invertebrates gave rise to vertebrates is ignorant, than follow it up with claiming a long chain of transitional forms with various types of neural arrangements that flow pretty smoothly from invertebrate to vertebrate body plans. Please refer me to one of these transitional forms you believe to be true. Do you agree with 100% of the stuff in the link you provided for me? I don't want to waste my time for you to agree with me that the one thing I chose to study on and debate was bogus, but you believe the rest.

#4 I'm not so sure I would limit this to creationist, but I think anybody with a brain may be hesitant to believe we are physically related to an orange tree and a rock. The belief that a designer simply used similar DNA for different creations is just as valid. Well, seems our beliefs both point to us being related, but I can't agree with you on the orange tree part. Welcome to the family :D

#5 You don't know that dino's were cold or warm blooded? Funny you chose an extinct animal I didn't mention by name for this topic. What about other reptiles that are around today? Can we talk about those? Maybe reptiles and birds that are currently living that we can establish and come to an agreement upon whether they are warm or cold blooded before we get further into the topic.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby jonesthecurl on Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:21 pm

PROFITS wrote:Looks like things haven't changed much in these kind of arguments. A whole lot of insults and not many answered questions. I'm done. Hope you have a great life and let go of whatever it is that causes the bitterness in you.



Hmm. Looks like your grasp of the words "I'm done" is about as good as your grasp of science.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PROFITS on Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:25 am

jonesthecurl wrote:
PROFITS wrote:Looks like things haven't changed much in these kind of arguments. A whole lot of insults and not many answered questions. I'm done. Hope you have a great life and let go of whatever it is that causes the bitterness in you.



Hmm. Looks like your grasp of the words "I'm done" is about as good as your grasp of science.


Still no proof of spontaneous generation. How are you determining my "grasp on science"? I'm a complete stranger to you. We haven't even began to discuss much in detail yet. What are you basing this huge assumption about a complete stranger on?
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby jonesthecurl on Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:30 am

, I'm kinda bored so I'll set aside some time to hear some answers not I will not respond to.


sigh. If only that were true.
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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