An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

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What are the facts? Please keep an open mind and read the article first before casting your vote.

While there is certainly proof that mutations do occur in nature; There is absolutely no real evidence to support the theory of evolution at this time (for over the past 150 years of "Dino-digging"). Including the sedimentary column.
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26%
There probably is evidence to support this theory, yet scientist are at a loss to explain it appropriately.
18
26%
Scientist are great at making shit up when they have no evidence to prove something that is false to begin with.
10
14%
I believe in Santa. He's a real person that lives all the way deep at the north pole and brings me presents every year. The presents prove that he's real. I also leave him milk and cookies to snack on and while I don't ever see him, I just know with all my heart, that he is the one who eats all the cookies and milk. Or, I wish I had a dogasaur like Dino.
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34%
 
Total votes : 70

Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:06 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:There is a word for ball. (Isaiah 22:18)


I looked into this word, "Ball" and it is Strong's word H1754, "Duwr" Pronounced Dure. It is also used to represent a Circle or simply another word for "Circle." Only with a slight variation because the word in Isaiah 40:22 is referring to the equatorial line of the earth. Isaiah could have simply said "He who sitteth upon the earth and just left it at that. But instead he was being descriptive about the earth and thus showing the knowledge that they had about the earth.

We need to remember that the Bible is a simple book for simple people who simply had advance understanding of the universe around them. How else would they have known at the time, that the earth hung on nothing in empty space when all the world believed that the world was stood upon something.

"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the earth upon nothing.'
-Job 26:7

Sorry, but that is pretty flimsy evidence to use to refute proven facts.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:31 pm

Viceroy, is this your source? http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/the-bi ... scoveries/


--Andy
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby jonesthecurl on Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:54 pm

Nice find.
Utterly convincing of course.
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Viceroy63 on Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:29 am

Thanks for the new site.

The truth is always, Self Evident! :D
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby MeDeFe on Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:48 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:The truth is always, Self Evident!

The above statement is not self-evident.
saxitoxin wrote:Your position is more complex than the federal tax code. As soon as I think I understand it, I find another index of cross-references, exceptions and amendments I have to apply.
Timminz wrote:Yo mama is so classless, she could be a Marxist utopia.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:46 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:Thanks for the new site.

The truth is always, Self Evident! :D

Then why do you persist in believing absolute, proven lies? THAT is the real question.

Just because people telling you these lies claim to be Christian doesn't turn it into truth.. but without your bothering to check into the claims, you will continue to be decieved.

Not one thing you have put forward here has been both real AND evidence contrary to evolution. In most cases, your "arguments against evolution" don't even deal with evolution!
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Viceroy63 on Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:16 pm

The truth is like a tree or piece of wood in the water. It always floats to the surface eventually no matter how hard you throw it into the water. It may sink for a bit and be unobservable for a while but eventually it rises to the surface and is visible to all.

While the whole world may be enveloped in an evolutionary deception, more and more scientist and Archeologist and just plain intelligent people with degrees and PhD's are coming around to the truth of the fact that the evidence against evolution is overwhelming.

In the Original Post I have dropped dozen's of links to other articles that explain that evolution has not only never happened on this planet and can not happen but also that the evidence in favor of Darwinian evolution, The displays and the bones, is being misrepresented and in a lot of those cases are simply hoaxes.

I don't know how to convince anyone who just does not want to see the truth. I can bring the horse to the river but I can't make the horse drink! Here is the water. have a drink if you want to.

Other Articles that support the position that the theory of evolution is not even possible or a Hoax:

Is This a Fact?

Feathered fossil proves that birds did not evolve from dinosaurs

The Vanishing Case for Evolution

Programming of Life. (A Video Documentary)

Short Youtube Videos; "Scientist: Evolution is false, Parts 1 and 2"



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU_O_8O2Z3M

Expelled - No inteligence Allowed (A Video Documentary)

Scientist: Evolution is Wrong! (A Short Youtube - 8 Minutes)

A Refutal

The Australopithecus Sediba Hoax (Short Youtube Video - 5 minutes long)

The 4 Top Reasons to Believe in Evolution, Or...

Evolution Has Never Occurred! By Viceroy63

A Clever Hoax: The Archaeopteryx Lithographica Hoax!

Science is true... By Viceroy63

What Was Archaeopteryx?

The Kachina Bridge Dinosaur Carving Has Been Authenticated and is NO FRAUD!!

Evolutions Dirty Little Secret! "An 8 minute Youtube Video"

So Much For The Theory of Evolution! Evidence that the Dinosaurs did not become extinct 65,000,000 years ago but in fact may still be alive in remote parts of the world!
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:57 pm

Viceroy63 wrote: In the Original Post I have dropped dozen's of links to other articles that explain that evolution has not only never happened on this planet and can not happen but also that the evidence in favor of Darwinian evolution, The displays and the bones, is being misrepresented and in a lot of those cases are simply hoaxes.

No, mostly you just showed us how little you know of evolution.

and folks here, far from your claim of ignoring "your evidence" have pretty much followed your links, listened to your videos and those others have posted, but you are utterly unwilling to even ANSWER many of the questions we have posed to you.


You have been so brainwashed that even considering you might be wrong will apparently challenge your faith. I could site you bits about building your house upon rock and not sand, but hey... that takes understanding geology, doesn't it.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Crazyirishman on Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:41 am

Why is this thread still active? I haven't posted here since December and I doubt that any progress has been made.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby jonesthecurl on Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:27 am

The topic has evolved since then. Viceroy does keep hitting the reset button, but every so often we get to point out some more ludicrous flaws in his position.
I've certainly come up with some more stuff. Also, I do get some of my material for the comedy set from the creationist's more ludicrous statements.
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby tzor on Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:01 am

Crazyirishman wrote:Why is this thread still active? I haven't posted here since December and I doubt that any progress has been made.


This is the thread that will never die. :mrgreen:
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:34 pm

tzor wrote:
Crazyirishman wrote:Why is this thread still active? I haven't posted here since December and I doubt that any progress has been made.


This is the thread that will never die. :mrgreen:

No, I think either the evolution vs creationism thread begun by widowmakers or one of the "logical God" threads takes that title... I believe they each went on to over 200 pages. :D
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Viceroy63 on Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:04 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote: In the Original Post I have dropped dozen's of links to other articles that explain that evolution has not only never happened on this planet and can not happen but also that the evidence in favor of Darwinian evolution, The displays and the bones, is being misrepresented and in a lot of those cases are simply hoaxes.

No, mostly you just showed us how little you know of evolution.

and folks here, far from your claim of ignoring "your evidence" have pretty much followed your links, listened to your videos and those others have posted, but you are utterly unwilling to even ANSWER many of the questions we have posed to you.


Yeah, right??? :roll:

Metsfanmax wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:Wow, you actually read that long ass OP? My hat's off to you, Mets.


Hell no. I responded to the part that was actually relevant to public education decisions, and ignored all the religious nonsense.


Army of GOD wrote:1.4/10 for making me reply

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betiko wrote:I just read his first 5 points and had a great laugh given the irony of the title of the thread! :lol: :lol:

I don't understand how can people be so blinded by their beliefs... "the rise of ignorance", thank you for sharing yours! :lol:


betiko wrote:There is nothing as stupid and dangerous as blind faith.


comic boy wrote:I like to give the benefit of doubt to the apparently feeble minded :D


AndyDufresne wrote:
show


--Andy


SirSebstar wrote:dude, you may believe whatever your mind is capable of grasping. Myself, i keep reminding myself that it took a comittee to deside on wether or not jesus was holy.. and who made the cut what storys made the bible and what did not...
myself, i think the faulty version of the theory of evolution makes better sense then a (unspecified, because there are multiple versions) bible.

I do keep wondering why we as a people allow fanatics to indoctrinate people with what is obviously anti social and unhealthy thinking? and yes, i mean by that religious people.I have never had an atheist scream in my face that i needed to be saved, and christians just wont go away even when asked


Lootifer wrote:Blergh why do we even bother (@Viceroy or whatever his name is, not you sabotage)


Lootifer wrote:Go away Viceroy, you contribute nothing to this community.

There are very few people that believe a single word you have said in this thread. And the only reason its 5 pages is a testament to the retarded fact that we as humans much prefer the negative discussion (i.e. conflict/argument) over the positive discussion (e.g. spending time with your kids is great and increases the likelihood they will be successful, #tumbleweed).

So i beg of you; please go away; you will not change any of us, and likewise we will not change you. Its pointless so please please please stop posting.


Baron Von PWN wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:Ain't reading this thread.

Nope. You can't make me do it. Ya just can't.



Here is an executive summary


viceroy63 wrote: LALALALALALALALALALALALALA I"M NOT LISTENING LALALALALALALALALALALALALA


everyone else wrote: lol wut?


crispybits wrote:I don't talk to trolls. Goodbye.


Symmetry wrote:TLDR: Viceroy hasn't read Darwin, equates Darwin's theories with modern evolutionary theory. Next up, Viceroy takes on the "Newtonists", or as people with a degree of sense call them, Physicists.


oss spy wrote:Anyone who thinks the Theory of Evolution is certifiably stupid and should be ignored. There is no debate and I wish threads like these were locked due to the misinformation and ignorance that is spread.


Army of GOD wrote:how is this thread still alive?


DoomYoshi wrote:](*,) ](*,)

Viceroy, go to hell.


betiko wrote:blablabla! no one has time to read your posts viceroy, nor plays your videos.
which monkey from your signature is closest to your humanoid form?
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:35 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote: In the Original Post I have dropped dozen's of links to other articles that explain that evolution has not only never happened on this planet and can not happen but also that the evidence in favor of Darwinian evolution, The displays and the bones, is being misrepresented and in a lot of those cases are simply hoaxes.

No, mostly you just showed us how little you know of evolution.

and folks here, far from your claim of ignoring "your evidence" have pretty much followed your links, listened to your videos and those others have posted, but you are utterly unwilling to even ANSWER many of the questions we have posed to you.


Yeah, right??? :roll:




And the fact that most of those posts came well AFTER you ignored repeated questions and posts by other people is utterly irrelevant :roll: .

Not too surprising given your general (mis)understanding of what "checking" and "verifying" and "responding" mean...
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Viceroy63 on Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:00 pm

Player; Not one issue from the OP was ever addressed here in this thread! How then can you make a statement like that? And I dare you to show me where rather than just to say so!

Other issues involving Micro evolution, otherwise known as Mutations, in a laboratory were introduce by others in this thread and as I had pointed out that was and still is not "evolution" of the Darwinian order.

Others brought up the suppose claims of the exhibits used to represent the theory of evolution which I did mention in the OP, and I went about, one by one, showing how they were hoaxes! pure and simple.

Now I am working on the sedimentary columns which is another way that is demonstrated to show how evolution is true and takes millions of years to happen. But as it turns out, the sedimentary column only shows the ignorance of science in stating that the records in the rocks is true when it is proven to be evidence of a world wide flood rather than evolution taking place over millions of years.

It is you and not I who are ignoring the issues and the evidence. I am merely presenting it for all to see. In fact this thread, when it is complete, will uplift the faith of many in a God of wonderful Creation, and a science text book, The Holy Bible, thousands of years ahead of it's time.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Neoteny on Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:29 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.
by Viceroy63

[1] Evolution is taught and accepted as factual evidence when in fact there is no factual evidence to support the Theory of Evolution.

Evolution is not taught as fact. It is taught as a scientific theory, which does have a LOT of factual evidence to support it, though it is true there is not 100% definitive proof.

Viceroy63 wrote:The theory of Evolution purposes that life evolved gradually over millions if not billions of years from single cell organisms to the complex life that exist today on the planet. But where is the evidence in the rocks to support this.

All around the Earth. Look particularly in any sedimentary rock formation. Not all contain fossils, but many do. Or you could just visit a few museums, many of which have fossils on display -- along with (if it is a good museum) a bit about where and how the fossil was collected and/or what is known about it. (museums have all that, but highlight specific bits for various displays )
Viceroy63 wrote:[2] Evidence "in the rocks" or fossils (fossilized remains), is what is used to explain evolution and the diversity of life on the planet. Yet there is a problem with the fossil records. There are no intermediate species depicting this. You would think that if the fossil records is what is used to teach evolution as fact and reason for the origin of life on the planet that the fossil records would be without question. Yet there remains great gaps or holes in the records in the rocks for evolution to be taught as fact. And yet it is.

I see, so if I say 1,2, ?, 4,5,6, ?,7 you cannot possibly figure out what the missing numbers are because there are gaps?

We know that life differing a great deal from what we see around us existed earlier. We can see that some forms more like what we see, including some that are identical to what we see today (horseshoe crabs, the nautilus are all ancient types) and we see some that seem to represent something like what a transition species might be -- Ceolocanths, for example.

Also, there is no other theory that explains the evidence we have... period. There just isn't.
Viceroy63 wrote:[3] The gaps are simple to understand when you realize that the Theory explains that life evolved "gradually" over millions of years. That word "gradually," is the key to understanding the gaps. If it takes millions of years for one species to evolve into another, then there should be millions of years worth of fossilized remains everywhere showing the gradual changes over all those millions of years. You just don't show a dinosaur and then a bird and say, "walla," evolution, see!

Why? The processes to form fossils are very specific and tricky. Its actually pretty amazing that we have as many fossils as we have.

Besides.. the fact is that fossils exist and no one has come up with a better explanation than evolution. That IS fact.
Viceroy63 wrote:[4] One could argue, "but how?" and the debate would go something like this; "Don't you see the similarities in the bone structures of the arms of the dinosaur and the wings of the bird? Why they are practically identical!" But what about the intermediate species that evolved between the dinosaur and the bird? well it turns out that the fossil records is not perfect or that we have yet to find them? Then why is evolution taught as fact in schools everywhere when it is not a proven fact?

Ironically enough, several bird transition species have been found. Ironically enough, even the T-rex is one... or were you not aware of that?

Viceroy63 wrote:[5] Charles Darwin, who wrote, "The Origin of Species," devoted an entire chapter explaining the problem with evolution or as we would say today, debunking his own work.

Not quite.. but go ahead.
Viceroy63 wrote:[6] The Origin of Species:
by Charles Darwin
Chapter 9: On the Imperfection of the Geological Record

"But just in proportion as this process of extermination has acted on an enormous scale, so must the number of intermediate varieties, which have formerly existed on the earth, be truly enormous. Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory. The explanation lies, as I believe, in the extreme imperfection of the geological record."
(The Origin of Species by Charles Darwin, 1859)
Darwin thought, nay make that "assumed", because its closer to the truth, that the Earth was far younger than it is today. Also, if you were to continue, you would find his answers to the above.. along with those of many other people.

This is actually called "countering the opposition". You try to think of any objection others might have.. and then deal with it, or acknowledge it as a problem yet to be solved.

Darwin did not know what we do about genetics, plate techtonic -- or many other things.
Viceroy63 wrote:[7] Darwin saw the fault in his own theory yet he blamed the rocks for not being adequate record keepers. LOL.

[8] "The faults lie not in our stars but with ourselves."
(Shakespeare)

[9] He believed in his theory at the time, except for the fact that the fossil records did not support his theory. At least not yet. But perhaps one day all those intermediate species would be found, some how? At least that is what was hoped for. Yet he could not understand why there were not any found at the time when there should be as many intermediate fossils as there are fossils of anything else.
See above.
You are proving nothing, not really saying anything here. Tehre are gaps.. so what?

There was life before, there is life now.. and while there is not a full and complete set of transitions for every single line of species, there are plenty of transitions and lines evidenced in the fossil record.

And.. again, no other theory has been presented that better answers the data we have. This is significant. Its one thing to say that evolution might not be true.. fine, few will disagree. But for it to matter, you have to present a competing theory that equally answers ALL the evidence. Just saying "we cannot fully prove evolution right now" isn't enough.
Viceroy63 wrote:[10] 140 years later Professor Steve Jones of University College London published an updated version of Darwin’s "Origin of Species" in 1999, the fossil records still posed the same problems and gaps.

Not quite. Some gaps still exist, but a multitude of gaps and answers were found between Darwin's publication and 1999.
Viceroy63 wrote:"The fossil record - in defiance of Darwin's whole idea of gradual change - often makes great leaps from one form to the next. Far from the display of intermediates to be expected from slow advance through natural selection many species appear without warning, persist in fixed form and disappear, leaving no descendants. Geology assuredly does not reveal any finely graduated organic chain, and this is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against the theory of evolution.”
(Professor Steve Jones, Almost Like a Whale, p. 252)
Yeah, Darwin thought change should be constant and gradual. We know differently now. Try reading up on modern evolution not just what was thought at the turn of the century.
Viceroy63 wrote:[11] Notice how in 1999, Professor Steve Jones called it a "Theory of Evolution." He stated that creatures seemed to be coming into existence almost as if they were "Created" (supernaturally, although he does not use that word, I do) from nothing but the earth. They just came into existence, lived, danced, laughed and then just died out and never even left a forwarding address. LOL.

He shows nothing against evolution. Sorry, but he doesn't. Natural selecton creates species that are highly adapted. There is no reason to change unless the environment around changes. It more complicated that that, of course, but the fossil record shows long periods of relative stasis, relatively little change.. then cateclysms happen causing massive die-offs and new sets of species (along with some unchanged species) appear.

It makes sense if you think about what happens --- something kills off most of the species, leaving just a few to reproduce. If the environment is changing again quickly, then the same thing might happen again.. and again. However, note that this "relatively quick" time period is thousands of years in length.

You just have to look around us today to see such a period of massiv die-offs. In fact, the die-offs seen today are essentially unriveled in Earth's history.

Or, you can study up on what happens when people use antibiotics, particularly incorrectly.

Viceroy63 wrote: [large segment deleted]
To Be Concluded...


I could only deal with the first bit now. When I have time, I can go back and go over the rest of your claims.

Then again, you might just review one of these threads:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=114455&hilit=creation+versus

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29535&p=2152183&hilit=creation+versus#p2152183


viewtopic.php?f=8&t=87553&p=2043214&hilit=creation+versus#p2043214

or a few others.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby AndyDufresne on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:47 am

Viceroy63 wrote:While the whole world may be enveloped in an evolutionary deception, more and more scientist and Archeologist and just plain intelligent people with degrees and PhD's are coming around to the truth of the fact that the evidence against evolution is overwhelming.





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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Viceroy63 on Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:51 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.
by Viceroy63

[1] Evolution is taught and accepted as factual evidence when in fact there is no factual evidence to support the Theory of Evolution.

Evolution is not taught as fact. It is taught as a scientific theory, which does have a LOT of factual evidence to support it, though it is true there is not 100% definitive proof.



The word Theory means Theory and not fact. No matter how badly Darwinist may want it to mean so or how often they use the word fact instead of theory.
That branching tree that is mentioned as fact is in fact speculation and there is no evidence to support the idea that because there are some similarities between the species in their Bone structure, that there occurred any evolution of the species. The other evidence of Molecules and Genetics is also not evidence that Evolution has ever occurred but speculative just like the similarities in the bones. I will soon post about the geologic records as that to has been misrepresented as well. As for organs, He is just making that one up because there are no Dinosaur organs around to compare to modern supposedly "evolved" animals of today. So how would he know?
And finally at the end of the video he also admits it when he says, "'IF' the theory is true."

"Attention Governor Perry: Evolution is a fact"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on- ... _blog.html
"Evolution is a fact, as securely established as any in science, and he who denies it betrays woeful ignorance and lack of education, which likely extends to other fields as well"
-Richard Dawkins wrote this response to Governor Perry for On Faith, the Washington Post’s forum for news and opinion on religion and politics.


At the 3:00 minute marker, Dawkins is telling a teenager that evolution is a fact and that any teacher not teaching that is doing a bad job at teaching. Not to mention that he feels "sorry for her" for not getting an adequate education.


The age of the earth has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. But by connecting the two you make the theory a fact. And that is what is being taught in schools. That evolution is a fact.


"The Taylor County School Board in Florida has voted to oppose evolution"
Posted by RB on January 9, 2008 · 40 Comments
http://theframeproblem.wordpress.com/20 ... evolution/
NOW THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED by the Taylor County School Board of Taylor County, Perry, Florida, that the Board urges the State Board of Education to direct the Florida Department of Education to revise the new Sunshine State Standards for Science such that evolution is not presented as fact, but as one of several theories.

I maintain that if the theory of evolution is a proven fact then why so much hubbub, bub? There should be no great a dissension if the Theory of evolution was a scientific and proven fact that even school teachers are arguing as to how to teach this and they are saying, "Not as fact, not in our school!" And if anyone should know better, it would be those teachers!

And BTW: To address an issue is not the same as posting your own opinion or the majority point of view on the subject.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby usernamer on Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:01 am

Neoteny wrote:And.. again, no other theory has been presented that better answers the data we have. This is significant. Its one thing to say that evolution might not be true.. fine, few will disagree. But for it to matter, you have to present a competing theory that equally answers ALL the evidence. Just saying "we cannot fully prove evolution right now" isn't enough.

:?: no... of course you don't need to. Providing an alternate theory / hypothesis / conjecture / whatever u wanna call it only matters if you want to get someone to accept that another specific view is more likely. It's not needed to show the existing theory (evolution) isn't as solid as is currently thought by most people, and they shouldn't be so sure that it's necessarily correct.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Viceroy63 on Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:56 am

Thank you Username! Also I might add that even if you have a better theory to put in the current theory's place, you still have to destroy the current theory first in order to put the better theory in it's place.

So a theory is set forth to explain all the observable facts but then is discovered that some of the facts are not answered. So the theory is adapted or changed altogether until eventually you find a theory that explains all of the observable facts.

The funny thing is that there is a theory that explains all of the observable fact but no one wants to even look at the evidence because there is a God in there as the cause of it all. And in a way, man wants to be god and can't because there is already a God and so this God must first be destroyed first in order for man to put himself in God's place.

It's natural logic that you first must tear down the old barns if you want to build the new barns in the same place.

":16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
:17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
:18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater;..."
-Luke 12:16-18
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby tzor on Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:58 am

Viceroy63 wrote:The word Theory means Theory and not fact. No matter how badly Darwinist may want it to mean so or how often they use the word fact instead of theory.


Dawkins is ... well Dawkins. He does not represent every scientist who believes in evolution. He is also deliberately using the English language in a sloppy way because he is countering the sloppy way to consider a "theory" as something vague and unproven. So let's consider the legal definition of the terms.

You must determine the facts in this case based solely on the evidence or those inferences which can be reasonably drawn from the evidence.

Direct evidence is the communication of a fact by witnesses who testify that they obtained knowledge of such a fact through one of their five senses.

Circumstantial evidence is evidence that tends to prove a fact in issue by proof of other facts from which the fact may be inferred.


So is evolution a "fact?" It's still hard to say that. Evolution is supported by the facts that are derived from evidence, direct and circumstantial.

The question is similar to the the question of whether a person is guilty or innocent is a "fact." No, but it is supported on facts.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Neoteny on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:15 pm

usernamer wrote:
Neoteny wrote:And.. again, no other theory has been presented that better answers the data we have. This is significant. Its one thing to say that evolution might not be true.. fine, few will disagree. But for it to matter, you have to present a competing theory that equally answers ALL the evidence. Just saying "we cannot fully prove evolution right now" isn't enough.

:?: no... of course you don't need to. Providing an alternate theory / hypothesis / conjecture / whatever u wanna call it only matters if you want to get someone to accept that another specific view is more likely. It's not needed to show the existing theory (evolution) isn't as solid as is currently thought by most people, and they shouldn't be so sure that it's necessarily correct.


I didn't actually write that. It was written by PLAYER during the first five pages of this thread. I just reposted it as evidence that Viceroy is a liar, like so many creationists. He said this:

Viceroy63 wrote:Player; Not one issue from the OP was ever addressed here in this thread! How then can you make a statement like that? And I dare you to show me where rather than just to say so!


Here are more people who specifically addressed points made in the OP. This doesn't include all the others who addressed individual issues without megaposts (like a couple of my responses).

Metsfanmax wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:[15] This foundationless theory of evolution is what is being taught as "fact" in children schools and Universities in the United States and around the world. And many so called "intellectual" people buy it with out ever really questioning the Theory. They simply accept it as fact. The fact is that if you don't accept this theory as fact, then you are looked down upon by the majority of the intellectual world as being ignorant of the so called facts of the so called "truth of evolution" or are just plain stupid. You take your pick.


No one who is being careful with their terminology claims that the theory of evolution is a "fact." (Sometimes people describe the theory of evolution as a fact, but they are not using that word in the sense that it is an objectively measurable quantity, they are using it in the sense that few or zero respected biologists disagree with it.) The theory of evolution is a scientific theory (see below), which means that to describe it as fact is, well, factually incorrect. It is much different from the realm of actual facts (e.g. the fossils we have collected). What science class teaches you always is, and always has been, is the accepted consensus of the scientific community at large of a reasoned explanation for the facts we observe. Physics class is not just about learning that it is a fact that if you throw something upwards, it will fall down; it is about quantifying how long it will take to fall down, given a particular scientific theory explaining gravity. Chemistry class is not just about learning that molecules have electrons; it is quantifying how certain molecules react, using a particular understanding of intermolecular forces. Earth science/geology class is not just about learning that earthquakes happen; it is describing the theory of plate tectonics that we believe explains why earthquakes happen. Similarly, biology class is not just about learning that we have collected certain fossils; it is about learning how all of those fossils are related, in a coherent framework. The purpose of science class is not so much to teach facts as it is to teach the scientific method -- how scientists take a set of data and analyze it to come to a conclusion.

But the theory of evolution has as much acceptance among professional biologists as the theory of plate tectonics has among professional geologists, so it is perfectly reasonable to teach it in the science classroom. If you believe that there should also be a class that teaches about religious outlook on the world, you are welcome to push for it. Or if you believe that we should not teach science in high school, you are welcome to push for that too. But it is absurd to suggest that we should not teach what the vast majority of scientists believe, in science class.

[16] Some do not even acknowledge the word "Theory" as simply an idea or a thought and use words like "Unproven Hypothesis?" Whaaat? Yes, the word theory does not simply mean theory but a fact that has yet to be proven??? What ever that means. I always that that a fact is proven already, but watch out now, Don't you be ignorant of the difference between the two???


The word "theory" just means something specific in science. It is not a reasonable argument to suggest that because you have a different definition of it, that the arguments of scientists is moot. In science, a theory is a hypothesis that explains a set of a data in a coherent manner and, as far as we know, is not in dispute with any other data. In other words, a theory is a hypothesis that actually explains known data. A hypothesis is under no such restriction, which is why "theory" is reserved for better-tested ideas. If you would indict evolution as an "unproven hypothesis," so you must indict Newton's theory of gravity and all the other ones I mentioned above, and more.


DoomYoshi wrote:Viceroy, the evolution of the horse family is an old concept. It used to be that eyes were taken as a perfect example of convergent evolution, and now we know that it is divergent evolution. I could bring up old posts about the evolution of eyes, and prove that they are wrong, but why bother? Why not argue against current evidence?

1 - Different animals in each series.

Scientists very often disagree about how a phylogeny fits together. Eventually, a consensus will be reached, but even long accepted phylogenies are frequently overturned. Sometimes they are upheld though (Protostomes and Deuterostomes were predicted by Dev. Biologists and upheld by molecular evidence).

2 - Imaginary, not real.

Oh?

3 - Number of rib bones

This is controlled by a single group of genes called the Hox genes. If you turn one on later, or earlier, the number of rib bones change. It's not as if there is a gene called Rib18 and it turns into Rib19 only.

4 - No transitional teeth. The teeth of the "horse" animals are either grazing or browsing types. There are no transitional types

Why would there be?...

5 - Not from in-order strata.

Something evolving to be larger doesn't mean it can't later evolve smaller. The whole concept of Natural Selection is that you will evolve to whatever the conditions are, not some ideal form. You must remember that the "goal" of evolution was not to make a perfect Horse. There is no "goal" which is why it is almost impossible to predict what is upcoming.


6 - Calling a badger a horse.

Just because people aren't sure of an exact phylogeny doesn't mean that evolution is wrong.

7 - Horse series exists only in museums.

This really is a weird point. The authors are grasping at straws, to put it politely.

8 - Each one distinct from others.

Once again, I ask you to define intermediate species. Also, I want you to write a list of the exact conditions required for fossilization over millions of years. You need to understand that not everything that dies becomes a fossil.

9 - Bottom found at the top.

FIrst, I repeat that we don't need to know the phylogeny for evolution to be correct. Second, just because one species derives from another doesn't mean that the parent species dies off.

10 - Gaps below as well as above.

At this point, the article becomes trolling. Most of the points are about why constructing phylogenies isn't perfect. I can't find somebody who says they are though.


11 - Recent ones below earlier ones.

This point is exactly the same as point 9.

12 - Never found in consecutive strata.

This is a repeat of point 7.

13 - Heavily keyed to size.

This one is bordering on an outright lie.

14 - Bones, an inadequate basis.

So, what is the point of the preceding 13 arguments. If bones can never find anything, why bother arguing any specifics? Why not just posit: "Since bones are useless for developing phylogenies, no evidence of evolution can ever be found".

VIceroy, you are being scammed. These people are performing a legerdemain by relying on your incomplete knowledge of what is being proposed by evolutionary theories.


Just because you don't like it, or don't like the tone, or even if the response is outright wrong, it is a lie, and you are a liar, for saying that no issues were ever addressed from your OP.

Please, stop lying, Viceroy.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby crispybits on Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:20 pm

Viceroy:

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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Viceroy63 on Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:14 pm

Neoteny wrote:
usernamer wrote:
Neoteny wrote:And.. again, no other theory has been presented that better answers the data we have. This is significant. Its one thing to say that evolution might not be true.. fine, few will disagree. But for it to matter, you have to present a competing theory that equally answers ALL the evidence. Just saying "we cannot fully prove evolution right now" isn't enough.

:?: no... of course you don't need to. Providing an alternate theory / hypothesis / conjecture / whatever u wanna call it only matters if you want to get someone to accept that another specific view is more likely. It's not needed to show the existing theory (evolution) isn't as solid as is currently thought by most people, and they shouldn't be so sure that it's necessarily correct.


I didn't actually write that. It was written by PLAYER during the first five pages of this thread. I just reposted it as evidence that Viceroy is a liar, like so many creationists....


Right; Don't you mean like so many Darwinists with their evolution of the horse exhibit, A proven hoax and Lie, or the Darwinists who presented the The Australopithecus Sediba Hoax (Short Youtube Video - 5 minutes long), And they have yet to present any bones for that one yet. You mean "Liar" as in that kind of a lie?

Or do you mean "Liar" as in the Darwinist Liars who presented The Archaeopteryx Lithographica Hoax!, that kind of "Liar?"

Or do you mean "Liar" as in the Darwinist Liars who wrote in the internet the Lies that the Kachina Bridge Dinosaurs were not really drawings of Dinosaurs but they themselves never really bother to even look at those carvings close up but with Binoculars and "psychic readings" or what not (really scientific), only to have real observers of the truth go up there, bringing an actual ladder with them so that they could get a close up and personal look at this with their own eyes and write this articles with Pictures about what liars they were, these two Darwinsts liars who were trying to convince people that these carvings were anything other than dinosaurs carvings? You mean that kind of Liar?

Here is the article again in case you forgot to notice the lies that these Darwinists Liars said about the carvings on Dinosaurs not being true. The Kachina Bridge Dinosaur Carving Has Been Authenticated and is NO FRAUD!!

And I have yet to post the misleading lies about the "Sedimentary Layers" being manipulated and misrepresented so as not to tell the whole story of the fossil records. Is that the kind of liar that we are talking about? Because the list goes on and on my friend. It's like the list that never ends. Some Darwinists start spouting all them lies and no one stops to question them because their ignorance cries to high heaven!!!

All that evidence around you and you still can't figure out the math. Man!
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Lootifer on Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:25 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:Or do you mean "Liar" as in the Darwinist Liars who wrote in the internet the Lies that the Kachina Bridge Dinosaurs were not really drawings of Dinosaurs but they themselves never really bother to even look at those carvings close up but with Binoculars and "psychic readings" or what not (really scientific), only to have real observers of the truth go up there, bringing an actual ladder with them so that they could get a close up and personal look at this with their own eyes and write this articles with Pictures about what liars they were, these two Darwinsts liars who were trying to convince people that these carvings were anything other than dinosaurs carvings? You mean that kind of Liar?

Here is the article again in case you forgot to notice the lies that these Darwinists Liars said about the carvings on Dinosaurs not being true. The Kachina Bridge Dinosaur Carving Has Been Authenticated and is NO FRAUD!!


Viceroy63 wrote:Image
http://www.generalforum.com/science/did ... 94028.html

The above drawing is found in Utah, USA. It was made by American Indians 500 years ago. At the time the Indian people were nomadic tribesmen. That means that they moved around a lot. They were nomads by choice because the hunting of the American Buffalo was their main concern. Well, that and the smoking of the peace pipe. Who can blame them.

The Buffalo never stayed put in just one place. So where ever the Buffalo roamed the Indians followed. They had no cities or high technology and certainly did not have spare scientist digging for bones and collecting the bones where ever they went. Spending the night dancing and singing songs around the camp fire to their gods was the height of their scientific endeavors.

So my question is...

If no one has seen a dinosaur in over 60,000,000 million years, Then just what the hell were they drawing in the cave walls?

There is an image of a man which is certainly definable but what creature even remotely resembles that of a large Horse with a tail the size of a tree and an obvious bump on it's head which we now know that some dinosaurs had atop their heads?

Image


The painting was made 500 years ago.

Lets for a minute assume that we have only been here for a few thousand years (thats inline with your belief Viceroy? take few thousand to mean anything between 3 and 30).

We certainly havent observed a living Dinosaur in human history, and certainly not in the last 2000 years.

So you are saying that a random nomadic tribe that is best known for smoking opiates managed to somehow keep an accurate picture of anything, dinosaur or otherwise, in their memory/records for no less than 1500 years?

You must be a pretty boring person to play chinese whispers with if that is the case...
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