Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby stahrgazer on Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:22 pm

KoolBak wrote:I believe Star referred ONLY to Gun Control regs that punish honest people and do nothing to criminals. The seatbelt / helmet was an example, which I also DETEST. I taught my children to be safe but, dammit, I don't want to have to wear that shit all the time. I did learn, however, WHY they passed those laws.....

I got a seatbelt ticket and could either pay $200 or pay $20 and take a class. So, this class was hours of preaching and a horrendous triple-R rated real movie of people fucked up in accidents. 2 people in the class ran out to puke....several were crying...it was awful. But in the end, the Doctor (yes Doctor) that was teaching the class said in a nutshell, the law was passed so the govt ends up footing the bill for fewer living vegetables subsequent to lack of seatbelt / helmet accidents. Apparently it's a multi billion dollar annual expense......makes sense; it's not for our safety, it's for their checkbook.....lol.

Anyway...I liked your post Star....back to the ropes.


Legalized Euthanasia would help those things.

I mean, if someone's family can foot the bill to keep a vegetable alive, fine; otherwise, let the person move on.. and if there is no "on" well, how many of you would really like to exist like that, being force-fed via stomach tube and intravenous sugar, with machines pumping your lungs? Dr. Kavorkian understood that there are MANY who don't want to continue with whatever conditions they had, and I'd think that was much more humanitarian than what the laws currently force.

But, Mets, if they do have stiffer gun control, you'd better believe our taxes will go up in order to pay for more enforcers (police, sheriffs, FBI, ATF, etc.) to sniff out those with the wrong firearm or wrong ammo clips.
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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby Symmetry on Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:10 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
KoolBak wrote:I believe Star referred ONLY to Gun Control regs that punish honest people and do nothing to criminals. The seatbelt / helmet was an example, which I also DETEST. I taught my children to be safe but, dammit, I don't want to have to wear that shit all the time. I did learn, however, WHY they passed those laws.....

I got a seatbelt ticket and could either pay $200 or pay $20 and take a class. So, this class was hours of preaching and a horrendous triple-R rated real movie of people fucked up in accidents. 2 people in the class ran out to puke....several were crying...it was awful. But in the end, the Doctor (yes Doctor) that was teaching the class said in a nutshell, the law was passed so the govt ends up footing the bill for fewer living vegetables subsequent to lack of seatbelt / helmet accidents. Apparently it's a multi billion dollar annual expense......makes sense; it's not for our safety, it's for their checkbook.....lol.

Anyway...I liked your post Star....back to the ropes.


Legalized Euthanasia would help those things.

I mean, if someone's family can foot the bill to keep a vegetable alive, fine; otherwise, let the person move on.. and if there is no "on" well, how many of you would really like to exist like that, being force-fed via stomach tube and intravenous sugar, with machines pumping your lungs? Dr. Kavorkian understood that there are MANY who don't want to continue with whatever conditions they had, and I'd think that was much more humanitarian than what the laws currently force.

But, Mets, if they do have stiffer gun control, you'd better believe our taxes will go up in order to pay for more enforcers (police, sheriffs, FBI, ATF, etc.) to sniff out those with the wrong firearm or wrong ammo clips.


Why? Wouldn't responsible gun owners try to follow the law?
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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby Night Strike on Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:21 pm

Symmetry wrote:Why? Wouldn't responsible gun owners try to follow the law?


They're the only ones who WILL be following the law. The criminals will just keep doing what they are doing knowing there will be fewer victims with guns around.
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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby Ray Rider on Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:32 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Why? Wouldn't responsible gun owners try to follow the law?


They're the only ones who WILL be following the law. The criminals will just keep doing what they are doing knowing there will be fewer victims with guns around.

In general yes, although I have many friends who are normally law-abiding citizens in every way; but when the Canadian government passed the long-gun registry law a number of years ago, many of them simply refused to register simply because they believed the government was overstepping its bounds and infringing on their rights and freedoms. Some organizations estimated that around 70% of firearms were never registered.

And as Stargazer mentioned, costs drastically increased from the initial estimate of $2 million to over $2 billion dollars and rising before our current government scrapped it (thankfully).

If that was the result in the relatively non-violent and liberal nation of Canada, what do you think the result would be if a similar program were attempted in the US?
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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby unscrupulous2013 on Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:07 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:We aren't even talking about taking away all guns. We're talking about controlling what guns can be sold and who can have access to them.

1) No more handgun sales to the public, but handguns that are already in private ownership can still be bought, sold, inherited, and traded.

2) No more sales of military/assault weapons, clips, jackets, ect.

3) Most guns sold are sold through gun shows where sales are not controlled. There are no background checks, allowing gun manufacturers to sell indirectly to criminals. So either we need to:
    a) strictly enforce background checks
    b) allow victims of gun violence to sue gun manufacturers
    c) ban gun shows

4) Anyone who houses or has an unsound or unstable mind may not have a gun in the home. No exceptions.


Is this not a respectable compromise? This is fair and addresses the problems that both sides have. Gun enthusiasts can keep all the rifles and shotguns that they like, while liberals can rest easier knowing that insane and violent people wont have access to handguns or assault rifles. You even get to keep your hand guns.
If you don't budge an inch you wont get anything you want at all. Because Democrats have repeatedly shown, over and over, that if you wont compromise then we will wait and wait until we have the majority. And then Conservatives get nothing.

I just thought we could all take a sec to LAUGH OUT-FUCKING LOUD :lol:
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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby Woodruff on Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:13 am

Night Strike wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Also, regulation is perfectly constitutional and legitimate. So I'm not sure why there's outrage against these types of items. Let me ask you this Night Strike - are you in favor of waiting periods and restrictions comparable to regular purchases of guns for gun show purchases of guns? If not, why not? What is the constitutional difference between purchasing a gun from a store and purchasing a gun from a gun show?


Regulations cannot infringe on Constitutional rights


This is a dumb position, Night Strike. There are perfectly valid reasons why the right to, for instance, free speech is infringed on. There is nothing wrong with this.

Night Strike wrote:especially when the 2nd amendment specifically states "shall not be infringed". We cannot continue regulating our right to own and carry guns until that right is gone.


Yet you FAVOR infringing on the 2nd Amendment rights of some people THAT YOU HAPPEN TO THINK SHOULDN'T HAVE THE RIGHT. You SUPPORT the infringement. Therefore, you have no leg to stand on in regards to stating that infringement of the 2nd Amendment cannot happen.

Night Strike wrote:As for background checks, I already stated that forcing every private individual to call up the FBI and wait for a background check is quite onerous.


Tough shit. Price of doing business.
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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby Woodruff on Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:19 am

stahrgazer wrote:But, Mets, if they do have stiffer gun control, you'd better believe our taxes will go up in order to pay for more enforcers (police, sheriffs, FBI, ATF, etc.) to sniff out those with the wrong firearm or wrong ammo clips.


Maybe they could get them from the failed War on Drugs.
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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:20 am

but of course, ask someone to show their ID when it comes time to elect our leaders who make policy that affects our everyday life and pocketbooks and workplace as well as countless other areas, and it's screaming bloody murder and racism....
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby Woodruff on Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:21 am

Phatscotty wrote:but of course, ask someone to show their ID when it comes time to elect our leaders who make policy that affects our everyday life, and it's screaming bloody murder and racism....


Yes, why ARE you a hypocrite in that arena, Phatscotty?
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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby Night Strike on Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:48 am

Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:As for background checks, I already stated that forcing every private individual to call up the FBI and wait for a background check is quite onerous.


Tough shit. Price of doing business.


Most aren't interstate commerce, so the federal government doesn't hold jurisdiction.
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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:18 am

Night Strike wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:As for background checks, I already stated that forcing every private individual to call up the FBI and wait for a background check is quite onerous.


Tough shit. Price of doing business.


Most aren't interstate commerce, so the federal government doesn't hold jurisdiction.
One of the biggst problems is that a lot of online and interperson trade IS done to people out of state, and its not just a casual problem when someone simply traveling trhough a state (perhaps only because of an emergency) can be arrested for unknowingly not following a state's laws.

And, no, ... it doesn't take a long time to get a check. Usually it takes less than 5 minutes. If it takes longer, then there likely is something to find.

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Why? Wouldn't responsible gun owners try to follow the law?


They're the only ones who WILL be following the law. The criminals will just keep doing what they are doing knowing there will be fewer victims with guns around.

You have no evidence to back your statements, only beliefs.
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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:27 am

I heard an interesting proposal by one of the lesser known gun advocate groups. I only got part of the interview, but what I heard sounded intriguing.

Basically, they proposed having people who want to buy guns from a private person, anyone NOT a licensed dealer, would get a card to prove that they can buy guns. The onus would be on the purchaser, not the seller to do it. ALONG with that, they proposed simplifying the system.


I can see some issues, but it seems like it might be a better proposal than the one that was just rejected. People could still go to licensed dealers, but others could use this online program.
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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby Night Strike on Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:40 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:As for background checks, I already stated that forcing every private individual to call up the FBI and wait for a background check is quite onerous.


Tough shit. Price of doing business.


Most aren't interstate commerce, so the federal government doesn't hold jurisdiction.
One of the biggst problems is that a lot of online and interperson trade IS done to people out of state, and its not just a casual problem when someone simply traveling trhough a state (perhaps only because of an emergency) can be arrested for unknowingly not following a state's laws.

And, no, ... it doesn't take a long time to get a check. Usually it takes less than 5 minutes. If it takes longer, then there likely is something to find.


That's because some states decide it's okay to ignore the 2nd amendment and the federal government has rarely stepped in and remedied those actions.

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Why? Wouldn't responsible gun owners try to follow the law?


They're the only ones who WILL be following the law. The criminals will just keep doing what they are doing knowing there will be fewer victims with guns around.

You have no evidence to back your statements, only beliefs.[/quote]

Chicago. Both the movie theater in Aurora, Colorado and Sandy Hook Elementary were "gun free zones".
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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:56 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
patches70 wrote:Suicide is not against the law. You won't find anyone in prison for attempted suicide. .

That's not true, though the exact laws vary by state. Jail may be less common than a psychiatric institution, but it definitely is illegal to commit suicide in most areas, mostly because it involves extra use of emergency services.. particularly things like jumping off a bridge.
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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:00 am

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:As for background checks, I already stated that forcing every private individual to call up the FBI and wait for a background check is quite onerous.


Tough shit. Price of doing business.


Most aren't interstate commerce, so the federal government doesn't hold jurisdiction.
One of the biggst problems is that a lot of online and interperson trade IS done to people out of state, and its not just a casual problem when someone simply traveling trhough a state (perhaps only because of an emergency) can be arrested for unknowingly not following a state's laws.

And, no, ... it doesn't take a long time to get a check. Usually it takes less than 5 minutes. If it takes longer, then there likely is something to find.


That's because some states decide it's okay to ignore the 2nd amendment and the federal government has rarely stepped in and remedied those actions.

Not even close to true.. and not relevant. You claimed it takes an onerous amount of time to get a gun check. Less than 5 minutes hardly qualifies as an undoamount of time.

And per the different state laws, particularly carry laws, nothing at all to do with the second amendment. You cannot have it bother ways... claim the federal government has no jurisdiction AND that states are not protecting the second amendment properly.
Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Why? Wouldn't responsible gun owners try to follow the law?


They're the only ones who WILL be following the law. The criminals will just keep doing what they are doing knowing there will be fewer victims with guns around.

You have no evidence to back your statements, only beliefs.[/quote]

Chicago. Both the movie theater in Aurora, Colorado and Sandy Hook Elementary were "gun free zones".[/quote]
Definitely not proof of the above, at all.

NO ONE is claiming that any check will stop crime, particularly not those who are truly intent. The claim, and the one you cannot truly refute with evidence is that registering guns or restricting guns will not mean fewer gun crimes. Also, there is a HUGE difference between small, independent "gun free" zones and a widespread, uniform set of rules. Also, by-the way, neither Aurora nor Sandy Hook truly were "gun free zones" -- unless you mean JUST the school and movie theatres.

See, having a lot less crime is significant, demanding NO crime is just unreasonable.
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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby -Maximus- on Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:36 pm

Night Strike wrote: Both the movie theater in Aurora, Colorado and Sandy Hook Elementary were "gun free zones".


FALSE! I live in Colorado and actually it was not a "gun free zone". If you were being sarcastic because of the quotations you do not need to read the rest of what I posted.

If that was a statement:
The CO state regs do not have any language that a conceal carry permit holder cannot conceal carry in that Aurora theater. A gun buster sign is not enough to keep a law abiding citizen from carrying into a business in Colorado. It is merely a rule that the business owner implies. It is not against the law to break a rule because a rule is not law. Now if the business ghosts your firearm and they ask you to leave, you are subject to trespassing by not leaving.

The same applies for the Denver International Airport, as long as a concealed weapons permit holder does not pass through security, that same person can be anywhere in baggage claim, check in, etc. Yes they have gun buster signs entering the airport, these do not meet state requirements to keep a conceal weapon holder from entering (unless they want to pass through security, have fun with that!)
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/colorado.pdf (Page 5) But we cannot just assume some website posted correct language, so on to the next URL I have added.
http://www.rmgo.org/firearms/concealed-carry/313-colorado-s-concealed-carry-law (download Colorado SENATE BILL 03-024, look at 18-12-214)

Please don't post false statements about when and where concealed carry permit holders can carry in this or that state unless you know the law for that state.
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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby Woodruff on Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:47 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:As for background checks, I already stated that forcing every private individual to call up the FBI and wait for a background check is quite onerous.


Tough shit. Price of doing business.


Most aren't interstate commerce, so the federal government doesn't hold jurisdiction.


It's certainly not unusual for individuals to travel to another state to purchase firearms, Night Strike. I have students who have gone to gun shows in Iowa and Kansas.
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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby Woodruff on Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:48 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:Basically, they proposed having people who want to buy guns from a private person, anyone NOT a licensed dealer, would get a card to prove that they can buy guns. The onus would be on the purchaser, not the seller to do it. ALONG with that, they proposed simplifying the system.


This is not a bad idea, but then we have to worry about counterfeit proof.
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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby Woodruff on Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:50 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
patches70 wrote:Suicide is not against the law. You won't find anyone in prison for attempted suicide. .

That's not true, though the exact laws vary by state. Jail may be less common than a psychiatric institution, but it definitely is illegal to commit suicide in most areas, mostly because it involves extra use of emergency services.. particularly things like jumping off a bridge.


There's typically a difference seen between attempted suicide and successful suicide. I know that it used to be illegal in Florida (I'm not sure if the law has changed since I moved out of the state) to commit suicide (yeah, I know), but it was not illegal to attempt suicide. I'm not sure WHY there's a distinction, to be honest.
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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby Woodruff on Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:54 pm

-Maximus- wrote:Now if the business ghosts your firearm


I've never heard this particular term - what does it mean?

I presume it has something to do with being able to tell you're carrying in some fashion?
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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby -Maximus- on Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:15 pm

Woodruff wrote:
-Maximus- wrote:Now if the business ghosts your firearm


I've never heard this particular term - what does it mean?

I presume it has something to do with being able to tell you're carrying in some fashion?


Yes, for example, you bend over and the firearm "prints." It was actually illegal to print in Oklahoma a few years ago but they passed open carry and fixed it. Printing would be different from brandishing. Brandishing would be taking it out of holster and waving around or showing someone to scare. Brandishing is not good and usually illegal, although sometimes tough to prove in an open carry state.

I tell people all the time I can see them carrying. They either adjust so it hides easier or they don't care anyway.
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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby Woodruff on Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:17 pm

-Maximus- wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
-Maximus- wrote:Now if the business ghosts your firearm


I've never heard this particular term - what does it mean?

I presume it has something to do with being able to tell you're carrying in some fashion?


Yes, for example, you bend over and the firearm "prints." It was actually illegal to print in Oklahoma a few years ago but they passed open carry and fixed it. Printing would be different from brandishing. Brandishing would be taking it out of holster and waving around or showing someone to scare. Brandishing is not good and usually illegal, although sometimes tough to prove in an open carry state.

I tell people all the time I can see them carrying. They either adjust so it hides easier or they don't care anyway.


Thanks.
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Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:16 pm

Woodruff wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
patches70 wrote:Suicide is not against the law. You won't find anyone in prison for attempted suicide. .

That's not true, though the exact laws vary by state. Jail may be less common than a psychiatric institution, but it definitely is illegal to commit suicide in most areas, mostly because it involves extra use of emergency services.. particularly things like jumping off a bridge.


There's typically a difference seen between attempted suicide and successful suicide. I know that it used to be illegal in Florida (I'm not sure if the law has changed since I moved out of the state) to commit suicide (yeah, I know), but it was not illegal to attempt suicide. I'm not sure WHY there's a distinction, to be honest.

It varies greatly by state. My knowledge is mostly as a first responder/volunteer. In some cases it is the action, such as jumping off a bridge that is illegal, because of the public safety/risk of emergency personnel, etc. In other cases, it is the act itself -- mostly to give law enforcement a way to hold people who are a threat to themselves or others. A big reason is the "or others" bit, because too often suicides are not just private situations. When they are -- those are generally not the ones you see on the news, they are the ones the family deals with on their own, mostly.
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