Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

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Should Schools Have an Armed Professional on Campus?

Yes
17
26%
Sounds like a good idea
5
8%
Maybe
2
3%
Sounds like a bad idea
9
14%
No
30
46%
IDK
2
3%
 
Total votes : 65

Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:25 pm

Symmetry wrote:Not at all, you've clarified none of your points, and made others murkier. The Fort Hood shooting does not indicate that anyone was "graduating" that day, certainly not the people who were targeted, although I do note that you're backing away from that claim with the quotation marks.


An extensive article on it I read last week at work spoke of graduating. If the article was wrong, so be it. My use of "Quotemarks" wasn't backing away from the claim. I think maybe it's your mind that's making things murky :lol:

Symmetry wrote:Clearly the base's civilian police were armed, as one of them shot him, which goes against your claim that only MP's were carrying firearms.


Not at all, the civilian officer wasn't assigned to the base but he responded when the shooting started.

Symmetry wrote:Furthermore, even a school not designated as a gun free zone can suffer mass shootings- Columbine notably had people with guns.
True.

Symmetry wrote:Finally, there really is no conclusive evidence that concealed carry laws decrease violence.

There is, albeit extensive studies have not been done.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby General Brock II on Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:02 pm

crispybits wrote:These shooters know that within minutes of starting to shoot armed cops will turn up in ever increasing numbers.

How is it a deterrant that they might get shot maybe 5 minutes quicker than they would without the guns in the school buildings?


Are we talking deterrent or safety of the children? Those five minutes would save dozens of lives. Not only that, but the police have to penetrate the building, which takes time. The teacher or principal would be able to nail the shooter from the inside - possibly before he even really got started.

It's like this... One person has the gun, many people die. If everybody has a gun, only the assailant and victims of crossfire will die.

Keeping an armed guard? Talk about expensive and impractical. We see how well armed guards work... You have got to have at least five teachers authorized to utilize a firearm and equipped to do so in the case of emergency.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Woodruff on Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:26 pm

What has become clear is that we obviously need to station armed guards at all firestations, so that those armed guards can go out with firemen when they respond to calls. This is clearly necessary in order to ensure the safety of our firefighters.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Symmetry on Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:32 pm

Woodruff wrote:What has become clear is that we obviously need to station armed guards at all firestations, so that those armed guards can go out with firemen when they respond to calls. This is clearly necessary in order to ensure the safety of our firefighters.


That's ridiculous, we need an armed guard in front of all flammable houses and buildings, including fire stations.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:45 pm

General Brock II wrote:
crispybits wrote:These shooters know that within minutes of starting to shoot armed cops will turn up in ever increasing numbers.

How is it a deterrant that they might get shot maybe 5 minutes quicker than they would without the guns in the school buildings?


Are we talking deterrent or safety of the children? Those five minutes would save dozens of lives. Not only that, but the police have to penetrate the building, which takes time. The teacher or principal would be able to nail the shooter from the inside - possibly before he even really got started.

It's like this... One person has the gun, many people die. If everybody has a gun, only the assailant and victims of crossfire will die.

Keeping an armed guard? Talk about expensive and impractical. We see how well armed guards work... You have got to have at least five teachers authorized to utilize a firearm and equipped to do so in the case of emergency.


I understand the cost issue. I have an idea to help with that. Let's relocate all the armed guards out of the social security offices and the welfare offices.

I think we can all agree our children, in their school, should be one of the safest places in the country.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Symmetry on Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:29 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
General Brock II wrote:
crispybits wrote:These shooters know that within minutes of starting to shoot armed cops will turn up in ever increasing numbers.

How is it a deterrant that they might get shot maybe 5 minutes quicker than they would without the guns in the school buildings?


Are we talking deterrent or safety of the children? Those five minutes would save dozens of lives. Not only that, but the police have to penetrate the building, which takes time. The teacher or principal would be able to nail the shooter from the inside - possibly before he even really got started.

It's like this... One person has the gun, many people die. If everybody has a gun, only the assailant and victims of crossfire will die.

Keeping an armed guard? Talk about expensive and impractical. We see how well armed guards work... You have got to have at least five teachers authorized to utilize a firearm and equipped to do so in the case of emergency.


I understand the cost issue. I have an idea to help with that. Let's relocate all the armed guards out of the social security offices and the welfare offices.

I think we can all agree our children, in their school, should be one of the safest places in the country.


Indeed, if each and every child is guarded with any less protection than that afforded to a nuclear warhead, the country is failing.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:30 pm

Symmetry wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:I like how the airlines do it. Pilots volunteer for an extensive program that, when completed, allows them to carry in the cockpit. Schools could, similarly, have teachers, administrators, etc., volunteer to complete a similar extensive training program to allow them to carry in the classroom.

"Who" is not publicly disclosed, so the potential is, any/all. Thus, schools are no longer totally defenseless, and maniac cowards might choose other targets.

Most assuredly, maniacs will always choose targets, and most assuredly, they'll find a way be it knives, guns, bombs, poison (remember Tylenol and other over-the-counter pill poisonings years back?) But at least kids in school would no longer be totally defenseless sitting ducks because the prof might be packing.


Sounds great! I fully back it!


After thinking about it, I'm not sure it'd work too well in a classroom. Kids these days are more and more violent in general. I wouldn't like to have a program like this in place to protect the kids who gang up on a "packing" professor, take his weapon, and use it against other kids in the classrooms or halls, but I'm sure it would happen if a program like this were instituted.

And what if we said "some principles" or "administrators" instead of some teachers? Well, the chance of kids getting to those arms is less, but would that fear-factor be enough to keep the maniacs at bay?

Then there are those who say, "hire more armed security/policemen to patrol the schools." Sounds great, right? Who wants double school real estate taxes to pay for this? Given the current "fiscal cliff" in the news about whether to raise taxes and reduce spending; raise taxes and not reduce spending; only reduce spending... seems pretty clear to me that no one really would wish to pay for this.

Maybe some parents could volunteer for a program where they get trained and registered and get to sit in their cars (locked) in front of the schools with their nearly-assault-but-not-quite-technically-assault-rifles ready to shoot any perp who'd come try to shoot the kids. Citizen patrol/neighborhood watch type. But wait, I live in Florida, where a citizen on neighborhood watch may or may not have illegally assaulted and killed someone who wasn't causing any trouble, out of fear he would, or racism (both arguments have been brought up about why he did it if it wasn't self-defense.) Trayvon Martin is the victim I'm referring to here, if you hadn't guessed.

There's no 100% solution.

But, signs, "gun free zone" really do make places like that targets for maniacal cowards who want to be violent and make the news.


I'm not sure that's the case. A person who enters a situation like this with the intent to die isn't going to be deterred by a sign, let alone one that says that it's not a place he'll be shot.


How do you know that?

I speculate it's highly likely the evil-doer will pick another location, possibly even just save us all the trouble and turn their weapon on themselves.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:32 pm

Symmetry wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:But, signs, "gun free zone" really do make places like that targets for maniacal cowards who want to be violent and make the news.

I'm not sure that's the case. A person who enters a situation like this with the intent to die isn't going to be deterred by a sign, let alone one that says that it's not a place he'll be shot.

One of the worst killing sprees in recent US history occurred at a military base- Fort Hood in 2009.


It's not the sign, it's the knowledge that they're sitting ducks. The Fort Hood shooting was a at a graduation ceremony, a time when the perp could be reasonably sure that most of the targets would not be well armed, so, again, "sitting ducks."


I'm pretty sure that a military base isn't a good target for "sitting ducks".

Could you restate your point? I don't know what you're saying about gun-free signs anymore.

stahrgazer wrote:But, signs, "gun free zone" really do make places like that targets for maniacal cowards who want to be violent and make the news.


stahrgazer wrote:It's not the sign, it's the knowledge that they're sitting ducks.


Are you saying they matter, or not?

You might also consider reading about the Fort Hood shooting for the "graduation ceremony" inaccuracy.


Maybe you should read about military bases. On most bases, only the MPs carry guns/ammo, the rest are usually locked away except when training is ongoing.

I did read about the Fort Hood shooting, An army psychologist with Muslim leanings didn't want to be deployed to the Middle East so "went postal." Some of the trainees were "graduating" the day he picked so it wasn't an inaccuracy, and since there was this ceremony going on there probably wasn't a lot of shooting training going on, so only a few MPs carrying to worry about at least until some damage was done.

To clarify my point about "gun free zones" - we all know what the "gun free zones" are, right? Areas where even those who have permits to carry concealed weapons, cannot legally bring them in. Thus, areas where there are likely to be no persons - or very few persons - shooting back. Thus, areas where there are a bunch of "sitting ducks," helpless in front of someone with the intention to do violence.

After 9/11 they instituted a program where pilots could volunteer to carry in the cockpit, so they have something to defend themselves, the passengers, the plane against folks intending to do violence with things like box cutters. It's a possible deterrent.

Few mass murders happen in police stations, because so many of them will be armed and the nutsoids know it, so they also know they cannot generate the fear they can where there's defenseless or nearly-defenseless "sitting ducks."

Get it now?


Not at all.


Gazer, meet Symmetry.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:34 pm

Question specifically for Player, or any other Americans.

Do you seriously trust this post-PatriotAct post-NDAA government tinkering with our rights?
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Symmetry on Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:39 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:But, signs, "gun free zone" really do make places like that targets for maniacal cowards who want to be violent and make the news.


I'm not sure that's the case. A person who enters a situation like this with the intent to die isn't going to be deterred by a sign, let alone one that says that it's not a place he'll be shot.


How do you know that?

I speculate it's highly likely the evil-doer will pick another location, possibly even just save us all the trouble and turn their weapon on themselves.


I've actually given you an article or two in the past about what constitutes a deterrent to suicide, suicidal thinkers tend to be very driven toward a single method. Especially those who chose something with a degree of spectacle. It's easily applied to a shooting spree where the shooter expects to die, and in many cases either is killed, or commits suicide.

Do you still have the NYTimes article I sent you about suicide? The findings it mentioned surprised me to be fair, as I said when I sent it to you, but the idea that a fixated individual will simply turn to something else doesn't pan out in the majority of cases.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:55 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:But, signs, "gun free zone" really do make places like that targets for maniacal cowards who want to be violent and make the news.


I'm not sure that's the case. A person who enters a situation like this with the intent to die isn't going to be deterred by a sign, let alone one that says that it's not a place he'll be shot.


How do you know that?

I speculate it's highly likely the evil-doer will pick another location, possibly even just save us all the trouble and turn their weapon on themselves.


I've actually given you an article or two in the past about what constitutes a deterrent to suicide, suicidal thinkers tend to be very driven toward a single method. Especially those who chose something with a degree of spectacle. It's easily applied to a shooting spree where the shooter expects to die, and in many cases either is killed, or commits suicide.

Do you still have the NYTimes article I sent you about suicide? The findings it mentioned surprised me to be fair, as I said when I sent it to you, but the idea that a fixated individual will simply turn to something else doesn't pan out in the majority of cases.


I think I remember that...makes sense to me. It just so happens to make sense to me that the reality you describe is not going to be prevented by having a "gun free zone" or any gun-control regulations.

Whatever we need to do about crazy people, let's do it. Neither the crazies nor is Progressive politicking going to dictate to the other 99.999% of us on how we live our lives, or what rights are going to be taken away from Americans.
Last edited by Phatscotty on Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:58 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Whatever we need to do about crazy people, let's do it. Neither the crazies nor Progressive strategy are not going to dictate to the other 99.999% of us on how we live our lives, or what rights are going to be taken away from us.


Again, as was pointed out, the principal reason you need to exercise those rights is precisely because of "the crazies." So they are exactly dictating how you act.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:06 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Whatever we need to do about crazy people, let's do it. Neither the crazies nor Progressive strategy are not going to dictate to the other 99.999% of us on how we live our lives, or what rights are going to be taken away from us.


Again, as was pointed out, the principal reason you need to exercise those rights is precisely because of "the crazies." So they are exactly dictating how you act.


hmm, pretty sure that burglars, car-jackers, rapists, muggers, drug dealers, stalkers, pussy husbands with fat wives that beat them, animal rights activists, and a tyrannical government are also just a little part of that "dictating".
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Symmetry on Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:30 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:But, signs, "gun free zone" really do make places like that targets for maniacal cowards who want to be violent and make the news.


I'm not sure that's the case. A person who enters a situation like this with the intent to die isn't going to be deterred by a sign, let alone one that says that it's not a place he'll be shot.


How do you know that?

I speculate it's highly likely the evil-doer will pick another location, possibly even just save us all the trouble and turn their weapon on themselves.


I've actually given you an article or two in the past about what constitutes a deterrent to suicide, suicidal thinkers tend to be very driven toward a single method. Especially those who chose something with a degree of spectacle. It's easily applied to a shooting spree where the shooter expects to die, and in many cases either is killed, or commits suicide.

Do you still have the NYTimes article I sent you about suicide? The findings it mentioned surprised me to be fair, as I said when I sent it to you, but the idea that a fixated individual will simply turn to something else doesn't pan out in the majority of cases.


I think I remember that...makes sense to me. It just so happens to make sense to me that the reality you describe is not going to be prevented by having a "gun free zone" or any gun-control regulations.

Whatever we need to do about crazy people, let's do it. Neither the crazies nor is Progressive politicking going to dictate to the other 99.999% of us on how we live our lives, or what rights are going to be taken away from Americans.


The thing is, Scotty, and this is solely regarding the suicide thing, death by cop, or security guard just isn't going to stop them. I find the argument that gun-free zones encourage mass shootings to be kind of silly. These people know they're going to die, and they know how. They're not intending to avoid being killed.

I can see your point, and you have been trolling a hell of a lot here, that perhaps armed presence would reduce casualties, but as I showed you in the stuff I sent you, easy accessibility to a means of suicide results in higher suicide rates. If it were widely known, as it increasingly seems to be now, that walking in to a school with a gun and shooting whoever you see will end your life and get you famous, what's to prevent walking into a school and shooting people becoming an easy way out for suicidal people?
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:03 pm

yeah but that isn't any different than saying the less water there is around, the less people will drown. Of course the answer is "well duh" but it's even duher to try to ban water.

All I'm saying is encourage teaching people how to swim, not close all the lakes, or only open on Sundays
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Symmetry on Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:05 pm

Phatscotty wrote:yeah but that isn't any different than saying the less water there is around, the less people will drown. Of course the answer is "well duh" but it's even duher to try to ban water.

All I'm saying is encourage teaching people how to swim, not close all the lakes, or only open on Sundays


Don't be fatuous Scotty.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:06 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:yeah but that isn't any different than saying the less water there is around, the less people will drown. Of course the answer is "well duh" but it's even duher to try to ban water.

All I'm saying is encourage teaching people how to swim, not close all the lakes, or only open on Sundays


Don't be fatuous Scotty.


You can still change your vote.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Symmetry on Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:12 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:yeah but that isn't any different than saying the less water there is around, the less people will drown. Of course the answer is "well duh" but it's even duher to try to ban water.

All I'm saying is encourage teaching people how to swim, not close all the lakes, or only open on Sundays


Don't be fatuous Scotty.


You can still change your vote.


I haven't voted, I consider the argument ridiculous. At the very best, I think that the idea of saying that guns aren't allowed in some areas is a good start to change the culture where guns mean killing people, but they don't mean much either way to prevent the kind of shootings this thread was set up to discuss.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:54 am

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WEST VALLEY CITY, Utah — Jessica Fiveash sees nothing wrong with arming teachers. She’s one herself, and learned Thursday how to safely use her 9 mm Ruger with a laser sight.

“If we have the ability to stop something, we should do it,” said the elementary school teacher, who along with nearly 200 other teachers in Utah took six hours of free gun training offered by the state’s leading gun lobby.

It is among the latest efforts to arm or train teachers to confront assailants after a gunman killed his mother and then went on a rampage through Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., killing 20 children and six adults before killing himself.

In Ohio, a firearms group said it was launching a test program in tactical firearms training for 24 teachers. In Arizona, the attorney general is proposing a change to state law that would allow an educator in each school to carry a gun.

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The moves to train teachers come after the National Rifle Association proposed placing an armed officer at each of the nation’s schools, though some schools already have police officers. Parents and educators have questioned how safe the proposal would keep kids and whether it would be economically feasible.

The group waived its $50 fee for the training. Instruction featured plastic guns and emphasized that people facing deadly threats should announce or show their gun and take cover before trying to shoot. They cautioned teachers about the liability that comes with packing a gun in public.

“It’s going to be a hassle. It’s another responsibility. You can’t just leave your gun lying around,” Aposhian said. “Not for a minute.”

The teachers at the basic gun training applied for a concealed-weapons permit, submitting fingerprints and a mug shot for a criminal background check. The class kicked off as an instructor in the “psychology of mass violence” offered various tactics to disrupt an assailant.

The first, the instructor said, was to start with the command: “Stop right there!”

“I wouldn’t hesitate to shoot if the danger was immediate,” said Fiveash, adding that her laser sight would make shooting in tight quarters safer.

English teacher Kevin Leatherbarrow said he often felt threatened while working at an inner-city school in Buffalo, N.Y., where he got a license to carry a pistol. He moved less than a year ago to Utah, where he feels safer. But he said gun violence can break out anywhere.

Leatherbarrow said he was highly trained in handling guns – and was taking criticism from parents who don’t appreciate his views on school safety.

“I’m in agreement not everybody should be carrying firearms in school. They’re not trained. But for some parents to think we’re cowboys, that frustrates me,” he said. “I wish parents would understand.”

In the U.S., the number of homicides at schools of children, ages 5-18, have been lower year-by-year in the 2000s than they were in the mid- to late-1990s, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics report on school crime released in 2012. At 32 deaths, the 2006-2007 school year was the only one that reached the levels from the 1990s. The manner of death was not listed.

Utah is among a few states that let people carry licensed concealed weapons into public schools without exception, the National Conference of State Legislatures says in a 2012 compendium of state gun laws.

Utah educators say they would ban guns if they could, but legislators left them with no choice. State law forbids schools, districts or college campuses from imposing their own gun restrictions.

Educators say they have no way of knowing how many teachers are armed. Gun-rights advocates estimate 1 percent of Utah teachers, or 240, are licensed to carry concealed weapons. It’s not known how many do so at school.

“I never felt threatened in 14 years of teaching, but I don’t think you can be too prepared,” said Tiffany Parry, a dance teacher in the Salt Lake City suburb of Sandy who applied for Thursday for a license to carry a concealed gun. “I think it could come in handy.”
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby stahrgazer on Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:41 pm

Symmetry wrote:The thing is, Scotty, and this is solely regarding the suicide thing, death by cop, or security guard just isn't going to stop them. I find the argument that gun-free zones encourage mass shootings to be kind of silly. These people know they're going to die, and they know how. They're not intending to avoid being killed.


You're missing the point as well as some statistics, Symmetry.

Yeah, those crazies want to die; and they want to take as many people with them as they can before they go.

So, they pick UNarmed targets to take down, because they can take more down before they're taken down themselves; and because it makes them feel more powerful for a few minutes because of the terror they cause to the defenseless.

Arming folks in defense does address two areas:
1) they're less likely to take more people down before they go down.
2) they can't generate quite as much terror, so can't feel quite as powerful.

Thus, according to some studies, they're less likely to pick armed targets, more likely to pick defenseless targets. The more probability the target is well-armed, the less likely these cowardly maniacal perverts are to choose that target.

Will it totally stop any violence whatsoever? Nope. About the only thing that could stop humans turning into monsters is being able to detect the monster in the womb and stop it before it happens.

Banning guns doesn't stop humans being violent.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby crispybits on Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:46 pm

stahrgazer wrote:Will it totally stop any violence whatsoever? Nope. About the only thing that could stop humans turning into monsters is being able to detect the monster in the womb and stop it before it happens.

Banning guns doesn't stop humans being violent.


So if we can't stop humans being violent, why does the US allow everyone to carry lethal weapons so that when they are violent they are also able to do massive damage to a lot of people very quickly?

Banning guns may not stop humans being violent, but if done effectively it sure as hell would stop humans being able to kill dozens of people in a very short space of time.

Why is allowing lethal force the default setting? Shouldn't restricting lethal force be the default setting?
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:59 pm

crispybits wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:Will it totally stop any violence whatsoever? Nope. About the only thing that could stop humans turning into monsters is being able to detect the monster in the womb and stop it before it happens.

Banning guns doesn't stop humans being violent.


So if we can't stop humans being violent, why does the US allow everyone to carry lethal weapons so that when they are violent they are also able to do massive damage to a lot of people very quickly?

Banning guns may not stop humans being violent, but if done effectively it sure as hell would stop humans being able to kill dozens of people in a very short space of time.

Why is allowing lethal force the default setting? Shouldn't restricting lethal force be the default setting?


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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby crispybits on Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:03 pm

I'm not stating facts there scotty, I'm asking questons. That's allowed remember :wink:
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Evil Semp on Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:46 pm

What happens when one of the teachers who is allowed to carry a weapon shoots one of the students? What is to stop the next person from shooting up a school bus? Are most of the shooters in school mass shootings either students or faculty?

Banning weapons and putting weapons in all schools are extremes that I don't want to see.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Woodruff on Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:41 pm

So this just wouldn't happen with a schoolteacher carrying a weapon, right Phatscotty. The schoolteachers would certainly be more trained than policemen, and students would never try to grab a gun from a schoolteacher:

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12 ... ation?lite

I still find it fascinating that Phatscotty doesn't think our teachers are capable of effectively teaching our nation's children, but that they are thoroughly capable of defending them with firearms. Quite the juxtaposition there.
Last edited by Woodruff on Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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