Why is Whaling Illegal?

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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:34 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Then you have the food argument itself---Cows eat grass, the "chaff" or parts that are inedible to human beings, like goats and sheep (but pigs, to contrast eat "human-viable" food).
...
In short, many of the most classic arguments about why folks should be vegetarien are actually wrong when it comes to ruminents


Many cows are fed grains and other things that humans could eat, at 10% efficiency in conversion.

This is true, but it is not necessary, is not why we have come to depend so heavily upon ruminents.


It is very clearly not necessary, but it is necessary if Americans insist on making animal flesh a regular part of their diet instead of a special occasion food. If we stopped factory farming, meat would get a lot more expensive and the supply would drop drastically. Since most people seem to consider meat a required part of a balanced diet, you cannot avoid the fact that the capitalist system will respond by producing meat in the cheapest and largest-scale way possible.

You are attacking 3 different concepts in a way that avoids the real answers.

The unsustainability/market argument applies to crops just as much as to factory livestock
farms. The problem is that the so-called "free market" is not really so free when it comes to long term impacts, but there is no inbuilt mechanism to get people to recognize that fact. Instead, we have a mishmash of regulations and subsidides faught for by various interest groups. In some cases, the rules and fights made a lot of sense, but too often, people fight for what THEY want and then justify what they want with all kinds of "sensible arguments."

Traditional agricultural systems of all types went through a very different process of design. People did what worked, what kept them alive and kept their society going. Unlike factory farms, a herdsman or land-farmer each had great stock in passing things on to the next generation. The most henious act a conquerer could do, even beyond slaughtering children and women, was to destroy the land itself. "salting the earth" and so forth. Today, farming in most arid regions is doing exactly that. Maybe increasing alkalinity instead of salt, but the same effect. They are, perhaps not happy, but willing to destroy their land to make a profit. This is even more true when the land is owned by a corporation run by people who may live far away or know little of agriculture other than what they see in their accounting books.

In many arid areas, growing crops sufficient to support humanity is not possible. That is the flat truth. We have altered this somewhat by irrigating and fertilizing, but they each have problems. Is it really and truly better to turn desert into fields of grain or to let some cattle, sheep or goats graze in a sustainable manner? I would absolutely argue that the sustainable range life is far better all around, for the animals, for the people, etc. Simply eating vegetable matter does not ensure that it is raised properly or sustainably. Rice and cotton in CA, for example are anything but sustainable!

Furthermore, growing crops, sustainably, for the long term requires some kind of fertilizer. Compost works to a point, particularly on smaller scale. However, constantly putting what amounts to the dead waste of vegetable matter over a very long term can cause its own problems. Certain nutrients get removed by the vegetables and grain we need for our bodies. They may not be removed completely, but they are removed. Worse, the chance of developing a pathogen that will persist is far greater than if the waste passes through an animal. If the animal waste is, in turn properly composted ("cooked" or dried), then you have a pretty good system.

Saying "lets eat vegetables" is a quick and simplistic answer. In many areas that would mean importing even more food than they now do. Even in places that can grow good and varied crops, when meat and dairy don't make up large a large quantity of the diet, it provides an important asset.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:41 am

Ok, except we live in the United States and that is what I am talking about here. We have enough farmland to sustainably support our population on crops alone, and furthermore the world's food problem could be solved straight out if we collectively stopped wasting 90% of the crops that we feed to animals raised in factory farms. The fact that has to be done "sustainably" is not an attack on the idea, it's just a qualification on how that needs to be achieved.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:12 am

Metsfanmax wrote:Ok, except we live in the United States and that is what I am talking about here. We have enough farmland to sustainably support our population on crops alone, and furthermore the world's food problem could be solved straight out if we collectively stopped wasting 90% of the crops that we feed to animals raised in factory farms. The fact that has to be done "sustainably" is not an attack on the idea, it's just a qualification on how that needs to be achieved.

I am talking about nothing but the US, though what I say does apply elsewhere.

We have "more than enough farmland" because we heavily irrigate, fertilize with petroleum based fertilizer, use levies to limit flooding (and ironically resulting in higher need for fertilizer), etc. Texas, large swaths of the west, including CA long produced cattle... and often still do, when pressure to build houses, NOT CROPS, but houses and factories, doesn't drive up the prices too high. On that note, agriculture is now being painted as the "bad guy" when it comes to water usage, particularly in CA. ( Water, after all is for people to put in their glasses and swimming pools. ) This, too is driving farmers out of business.


The real fact is that if things don't chagne, we will be heading toward a time when the US will have to import food.. not just a few crops that are less effectively grown here, in exchange for things large areas of the US produce well, but basic food because we no longer have the ability to produce it ourselves.

NOwhere in all that is eating meat the problem. It just isn't. Pretending it is, fighting animal growers causes far more harm than it solves. If you want to stop factory farming, then buy food that is sustainably produced... be it meat or crops. Telling everyone to be vegetarien does nothing real at all, and actually causes harm.. if for no other reason than it gives people the illusion of "doing good". There are plenty of reasons not to eat meat or to eat far less, health reasons, etc. However, lack of sustainability is not one of them.

AND... just doing without meat is not the route to true sustainability.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby tzor on Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:28 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:We have "more than enough farmland" because we heavily irrigate, fertilize with petroleum based fertilizer, use levies to limit flooding (and ironically resulting in higher need for fertilizer), etc.


Absolutely and positively FALSE. Yes we do all of the above, but we also export a significant amount of food and we also pay farmers a significant amount not to grow. Even then, many farmers keep their fields fallow because it is not profitable for them to farm, given all the requirements for labor and the very small profit margins small farms make.

I know enough about my own state of New York to know that your statement does not apply to a lot of the country.

If we did things right we would still have more than enough farmland to feed our nation. We would not have massive exports, but we would not be paying (or regulating) anyone not to farm.

Of course, if we started growing the right crops, we would be exporting again.

We are not India; there is no threat of a "green revolution" backlash.

We are merely stuck with stupid agro-corps that ironically don't actually farm effectively.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:36 pm

tzor wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:We have "more than enough farmland" because we heavily irrigate, fertilize with petroleum based fertilizer, use levies to limit flooding (and ironically resulting in higher need for fertilizer), etc.


Absolutely and positively FALSE. Yes we do all of the above, but we also export a significant amount of food and we also pay farmers a significant amount not to grow.[ Even then, many farmers keep their fields fallow because it is not profitable for them to farm, given all the requirements for labor and the very small profit margins small farms make.

While what you are saying is true, it doesn't contradict what I am saying.
tzor wrote: I know enough about my own state of New York to know that your statement does not apply to a lot of the country.
Then you know that New York cannot possibly feed itself....
tzor wrote:
If we did things right we would still have more than enough farmland to feed our nation. We would not have massive exports, but we would not be paying (or regulating) anyone not to farm.
True, but "doing things right" does NOT mean just doing away with meat and going vegetarien.

tzor wrote: Of course, if we started growing the right crops, we would be exporting again.

We are not India; there is no threat of a "green revolution" backlash.

We are merely stuck with stupid agro-corps that ironically don't actually farm effectively.

Uh, no... we are beholded to the big chemical companies and seed companies in ways you seem to not understand. I can get into this more at another time, but probably should be in another thread since its pretty far from the whaling topic. I have to go eat dinner now, though.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby tzor on Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:54 pm

This post is getting too long, apologies if I over trim it.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Then you know that New York cannot possibly feed itself....


Actually I think it is you who should prove that the state cannot feed itself.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Uh, no... we are beholded to the big chemical companies and seed companies in ways you seem to not understand.


I understand them very well, but seed companies are into pesticide control. I mentioned India's Green Revolution, which also included significant attempts to over boost the system through fertilizer and irrigation.

Fertilizer abuse was a significant problem in New York and especially on Long Island where it would continue past the plants, into the subsoil and eventually contaminate the water supply.

Irrigation, on the other hand is not a significant problem in New York (unlike the case of west coast states). Most of the state has plenty of water sources that are massed during the cold snows of winter.

Optimally done, the state has enough resources to keep the people fed. Probably not enough to keep them horribly obese, but who really wants that anyway/
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:57 pm

Whaling is illegal cuz them fat chicks keep trying to trap you by having your kids. It's a form of paternalism.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby stahrgazer on Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:32 pm

CreepersWiener wrote:Why? Any particular reason? I would think if we ocean farmed whales we could feed a lot more people in the world than raising cattle. Cattle produce so much methane that they are screwing the Ozone Layer! When whales shit and fart, it just goes "Blub, Blub, Blub, Blub...and then the ocean cleans it up and little fishies eat all the whale poop!

We could also produce lots of oil from whale blubber! Diesel prices could be brought down and it would be a totally new renewable energy resource!


Whaling is illegal because whales were hunted nearly to extinction. Farming whales sounds neat, but whales rarely breed in captivity.

As for those who've hypothesized that there may be a link between whale hunting being illegal ... well, they're nearly extinct. Maybe when mankind is equally nearly extinct, people won't shoot each other so much, either.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby Funkyterrance on Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:01 pm

CreepersWiener wrote:Why? Any particular reason? I would think if we ocean farmed whales we could feed a lot more people in the world than raising cattle. Cattle produce so much methane that they are screwing the Ozone Layer! When whales shit and fart, it just goes "Blub, Blub, Blub, Blub...and then the ocean cleans it up and little fishies eat all the whale poop!

We could also produce lots of oil from whale blubber! Diesel prices could be brought down and it would be a totally new renewable energy resource!


Sounds good on paper but even if there were enough whales to support our crazy levels of fuel consumption, there would be so many of them that they would most likely affect our planet in many adverse ways.
I've got nothing against farming whales if it's a sustainable idea but I'm doubtful. There's simply nothing out there that can satiate the gluttony of the world as we know it for any prolonged amount of time.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:09 am

DoomYoshi wrote:Whaling is illegal cuz them fat chicks keep trying to trap you by having your kids. It's a form of paternalism.


I cannot tolerate food Nazis. How about you?
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:55 pm

Yea, as someone who eschews animal products, food nazis cut me to the quick.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby jay_a2j on Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:28 pm

Ok, what I'm gathering is:

77% of Americans will be paying HIGHER taxes.
There was a minimal SPENDING cut.
Then there was a HUGE spending INCREASE.


OBAMA is DESTROYING this country (the sad part is, it isn't accidental)...... This will be evident in March when he increases the DEBT CEILING!!!!!!
THE DEBATE IS OVER...
PLAYER57832 wrote:Too many of those who claim they don't believe global warming are really "end-timer" Christians.

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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby jay_a2j on Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:31 pm

????? how did that post end up here? I was in the fiscal cliff thread!!!!
THE DEBATE IS OVER...
PLAYER57832 wrote:Too many of those who claim they don't believe global warming are really "end-timer" Christians.

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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:25 pm

tzor wrote:This post is getting too long, apologies if I over trim it.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Then you know that New York cannot possibly feed itself....


Actually I think it is you who should prove that the state cannot feed itself.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Uh, no... we are beholded to the big chemical companies and seed companies in ways you seem to not understand.


I understand them very well, but seed companies are into pesticide control. I mentioned India's Green Revolution, which also included significant attempts to over boost the system through fertilizer and irrigation.

Fertilizer abuse was a significant problem in New York and especially on Long Island where it would continue past the plants, into the subsoil and eventually contaminate the water supply.

Irrigation, on the other hand is not a significant problem in New York (unlike the case of west coast states). Most of the state has plenty of water sources that are massed during the cold snows of winter.

Optimally done, the state has enough resources to keep the people fed. Probably not enough to keep them horribly obese, but who really wants that anyway/

It does not have enough land to feed New York city unless intensive agriculture is used, things well beyond standard. Even back when transportation was limited, it relied upon PA to supply the city. And, remember, people did not eat all that well.

But like I said, this is getting way, way off topic.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:26 pm

jay_a2j wrote:Ok, what I'm gathering is:

77% of Americans will be paying HIGHER taxes.
There was a minimal SPENDING cut.
Then there was a HUGE spending INCREASE.


OBAMA is DESTROYING this country (the sad part is, it isn't accidental)...... This will be evident in March when he increases the DEBT CEILING!!!!!!

And this has to do with whaling, how, exactly?
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:55 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Ok, what I'm gathering is:

77% of Americans will be paying HIGHER taxes.
There was a minimal SPENDING cut.
Then there was a HUGE spending INCREASE.


OBAMA is DESTROYING this country (the sad part is, it isn't accidental)...... This will be evident in March when he increases the DEBT CEILING!!!!!!

And this has to do with whaling, how, exactly?


He is a food nazi trying to cover his trail.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby macbone on Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:49 am

See Japan for one country that still prizes whaling.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8564342.stm

Of course, they kill dolphins to eat, too.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/se ... apan-taiji

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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby jimboston on Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:31 am

CreepersWiener wrote:Why? Any particular reason? I would think if we ocean farmed whales we could feed a lot more people in the world than raising cattle. Cattle produce so much methane that they are screwing the Ozone Layer! When whales shit and fart, it just goes "Blub, Blub, Blub, Blub...and then the ocean cleans it up and little fishies eat all the whale poop!

We could also produce lots of oil from whale blubber! Diesel prices could be brought down and it would be a totally new renewable energy resource!


I think the problem stems from the fact that we have "over-fished" whales and many were threatened with extinction.

So the "fix" is to stop hunting them all together.

That makes sense when they are near extinction... but as the population rebonds fishing them and managing the population may make more sense.

At what point that makes sense is a question for experts, and likely debatable.


I do think also the methods used in the past may have been considered "cruel" by some. Perhaps with better technology we coudl find more "humane" ways to kill them.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby jimboston on Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:34 am

chang50 wrote:
CreepersWiener wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:We should arm the whales.


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Until they can do it themselves...The Sea Shepard will do it for them! LOL! What a bunch of overly righteous blabber!

Whales are meat, if you are against killing whales then you should also be against killing cows and chickens!


Equally if you are for eating whales,you should be for eating cats and dogs..



NO... you should be for "allowing" or "not objecting" to other people eating cats and dogs.

I love steak.

I also love MY dog.

You can got eat dog... just you can't eat my dog.

... nor should be forced to eat dog. I won't force you to eat cow, nor will I object to you eating dog (unless it's my Max).

make sense?
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby jimboston on Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:36 am

macbone wrote:
Of course, they kill dolphins to eat, too.



... so?
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby jimboston on Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:45 am

jay_a2j wrote:Ok, what I'm gathering is:

77% of Americans will be paying HIGHER taxes.
There was a minimal SPENDING cut.
Then there was a HUGE spending INCREASE.


OBAMA is DESTROYING this country (the sad part is, it isn't accidental)...... This will be evident in March when he increases the DEBT CEILING!!!!!!


What does this have to do with whaling?
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:58 am

jimboston wrote:
chang50 wrote:
CreepersWiener wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:We should arm the whales.


Image

Until they can do it themselves...The Sea Shepard will do it for them! LOL! What a bunch of overly righteous blabber!

Whales are meat, if you are against killing whales then you should also be against killing cows and chickens!


Equally if you are for eating whales,you should be for eating cats and dogs..



NO... you should be for "allowing" or "not objecting" to other people eating cats and dogs.

I love steak.

I also love MY dog.

You can got eat dog... just you can't eat my dog.

... nor should be forced to eat dog. I won't force you to eat cow, nor will I object to you eating dog (unless it's my Max).

make sense?


Yup, private property rights. Dolphins and whales live in areas called the commons, so no one actually owns them until they're in the boat or have been captured in some specific place where they can exclude others from the animals.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby AAFitz on Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:48 pm

jay_a2j wrote:????? how did that post end up here? I was in the fiscal cliff thread!!!!


That was a whale of a mistake.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:11 pm

jimboston wrote:
CreepersWiener wrote:Why? Any particular reason? I would think if we ocean farmed whales we could feed a lot more people in the world than raising cattle. Cattle produce so much methane that they are screwing the Ozone Layer! When whales shit and fart, it just goes "Blub, Blub, Blub, Blub...and then the ocean cleans it up and little fishies eat all the whale poop!

We could also produce lots of oil from whale blubber! Diesel prices could be brought down and it would be a totally new renewable energy resource!


I think the problem stems from the fact that we have "over-fished" whales and many were threatened with extinction.

So the "fix" is to stop hunting them all together.

That makes sense when they are near extinction... but as the population rebonds fishing them and managing the population may make more sense.

At what point that makes sense is a question for experts, and likely debatable.


I do think also the methods used in the past may have been considered "cruel" by some. Perhaps with better technology we coudl find more "humane" ways to kill them.

From a fisheries perspective, whales just don't reproduce enough to sustain a heavily impacted population. This is why though most whaling ended decades, even centuries ago in some cases, the population numbers are still low.

Also, the primary demand was for whale oil, not whale meat. Petroleum products have long since replaced almost all whale oil uses, thus lowering the demand.

Per management, they are managed, as much as any marine species is managed... that is, a few international treaties are enforced, but a lot is left up to various countries. Teh distance a country can "control" off its shores varies, but is dictated by international law.

Of course, any international law is by its nature weaker than more localized laws. Japan and Norway have used a scientific fishing exclusion to justify some small scale whaling, which is largely what Greenpeace, etc target. Ironically, the US is one country that has not (unless this changed in the past few years) signed onto the international bans on whaling, largely because they want to maintain the right of the Inuit to whale.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby CreepersWiener on Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:22 pm

AAFitz wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:????? how did that post end up here? I was in the fiscal cliff thread!!!!


That was a whale of a mistake.


I am sure jay didn't do it on porpoise.
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