Why is Whaling Illegal?

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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:55 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Ok, what I'm gathering is:

77% of Americans will be paying HIGHER taxes.
There was a minimal SPENDING cut.
Then there was a HUGE spending INCREASE.


OBAMA is DESTROYING this country (the sad part is, it isn't accidental)...... This will be evident in March when he increases the DEBT CEILING!!!!!!

And this has to do with whaling, how, exactly?


He is a food nazi trying to cover his trail.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby macbone on Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:49 am

See Japan for one country that still prizes whaling.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8564342.stm

Of course, they kill dolphins to eat, too.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/se ... apan-taiji

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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby jimboston on Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:31 am

CreepersWiener wrote:Why? Any particular reason? I would think if we ocean farmed whales we could feed a lot more people in the world than raising cattle. Cattle produce so much methane that they are screwing the Ozone Layer! When whales shit and fart, it just goes "Blub, Blub, Blub, Blub...and then the ocean cleans it up and little fishies eat all the whale poop!

We could also produce lots of oil from whale blubber! Diesel prices could be brought down and it would be a totally new renewable energy resource!


I think the problem stems from the fact that we have "over-fished" whales and many were threatened with extinction.

So the "fix" is to stop hunting them all together.

That makes sense when they are near extinction... but as the population rebonds fishing them and managing the population may make more sense.

At what point that makes sense is a question for experts, and likely debatable.


I do think also the methods used in the past may have been considered "cruel" by some. Perhaps with better technology we coudl find more "humane" ways to kill them.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby jimboston on Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:34 am

chang50 wrote:
CreepersWiener wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:We should arm the whales.


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Until they can do it themselves...The Sea Shepard will do it for them! LOL! What a bunch of overly righteous blabber!

Whales are meat, if you are against killing whales then you should also be against killing cows and chickens!


Equally if you are for eating whales,you should be for eating cats and dogs..



NO... you should be for "allowing" or "not objecting" to other people eating cats and dogs.

I love steak.

I also love MY dog.

You can got eat dog... just you can't eat my dog.

... nor should be forced to eat dog. I won't force you to eat cow, nor will I object to you eating dog (unless it's my Max).

make sense?
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby jimboston on Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:36 am

macbone wrote:
Of course, they kill dolphins to eat, too.



... so?
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby jimboston on Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:45 am

jay_a2j wrote:Ok, what I'm gathering is:

77% of Americans will be paying HIGHER taxes.
There was a minimal SPENDING cut.
Then there was a HUGE spending INCREASE.


OBAMA is DESTROYING this country (the sad part is, it isn't accidental)...... This will be evident in March when he increases the DEBT CEILING!!!!!!


What does this have to do with whaling?
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:58 am

jimboston wrote:
chang50 wrote:
CreepersWiener wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:We should arm the whales.


Image

Until they can do it themselves...The Sea Shepard will do it for them! LOL! What a bunch of overly righteous blabber!

Whales are meat, if you are against killing whales then you should also be against killing cows and chickens!


Equally if you are for eating whales,you should be for eating cats and dogs..



NO... you should be for "allowing" or "not objecting" to other people eating cats and dogs.

I love steak.

I also love MY dog.

You can got eat dog... just you can't eat my dog.

... nor should be forced to eat dog. I won't force you to eat cow, nor will I object to you eating dog (unless it's my Max).

make sense?


Yup, private property rights. Dolphins and whales live in areas called the commons, so no one actually owns them until they're in the boat or have been captured in some specific place where they can exclude others from the animals.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby AAFitz on Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:48 pm

jay_a2j wrote:????? how did that post end up here? I was in the fiscal cliff thread!!!!


That was a whale of a mistake.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:11 pm

jimboston wrote:
CreepersWiener wrote:Why? Any particular reason? I would think if we ocean farmed whales we could feed a lot more people in the world than raising cattle. Cattle produce so much methane that they are screwing the Ozone Layer! When whales shit and fart, it just goes "Blub, Blub, Blub, Blub...and then the ocean cleans it up and little fishies eat all the whale poop!

We could also produce lots of oil from whale blubber! Diesel prices could be brought down and it would be a totally new renewable energy resource!


I think the problem stems from the fact that we have "over-fished" whales and many were threatened with extinction.

So the "fix" is to stop hunting them all together.

That makes sense when they are near extinction... but as the population rebonds fishing them and managing the population may make more sense.

At what point that makes sense is a question for experts, and likely debatable.


I do think also the methods used in the past may have been considered "cruel" by some. Perhaps with better technology we coudl find more "humane" ways to kill them.

From a fisheries perspective, whales just don't reproduce enough to sustain a heavily impacted population. This is why though most whaling ended decades, even centuries ago in some cases, the population numbers are still low.

Also, the primary demand was for whale oil, not whale meat. Petroleum products have long since replaced almost all whale oil uses, thus lowering the demand.

Per management, they are managed, as much as any marine species is managed... that is, a few international treaties are enforced, but a lot is left up to various countries. Teh distance a country can "control" off its shores varies, but is dictated by international law.

Of course, any international law is by its nature weaker than more localized laws. Japan and Norway have used a scientific fishing exclusion to justify some small scale whaling, which is largely what Greenpeace, etc target. Ironically, the US is one country that has not (unless this changed in the past few years) signed onto the international bans on whaling, largely because they want to maintain the right of the Inuit to whale.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby CreepersWiener on Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:22 pm

AAFitz wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:????? how did that post end up here? I was in the fiscal cliff thread!!!!


That was a whale of a mistake.


I am sure jay didn't do it on porpoise.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby macbone on Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:17 am

jimboston wrote:
macbone wrote:
Of course, they kill dolphins to eat, too.



... so?


Seriously? Do you know how many human lives have been saved by dolphins over the years? And we reward them by clubbing them to death and feeding their mercury-ridden meat to schoolchildren?



How do you feel about shark-finning, jim?
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:41 pm

Yeah the whole ramming the shit out of sharks until they sink to the bottom a bloody pulp is pretty badass. Dolphins are cool beans.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:49 am

Funkyterrance wrote:Yeah the whole ramming the shit out of sharks until they sink to the bottom a bloody pulp is pretty badass. Dolphins are cool beans.


Actually, dolphins are fish.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby macbone on Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:28 am

No, sharks are fish. =)
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby Symmetry on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:48 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
jimboston wrote:
CreepersWiener wrote:Why? Any particular reason? I would think if we ocean farmed whales we could feed a lot more people in the world than raising cattle. Cattle produce so much methane that they are screwing the Ozone Layer! When whales shit and fart, it just goes "Blub, Blub, Blub, Blub...and then the ocean cleans it up and little fishies eat all the whale poop!

We could also produce lots of oil from whale blubber! Diesel prices could be brought down and it would be a totally new renewable energy resource!


I think the problem stems from the fact that we have "over-fished" whales and many were threatened with extinction.

So the "fix" is to stop hunting them all together.

That makes sense when they are near extinction... but as the population rebonds fishing them and managing the population may make more sense.

At what point that makes sense is a question for experts, and likely debatable.


I do think also the methods used in the past may have been considered "cruel" by some. Perhaps with better technology we coudl find more "humane" ways to kill them.

From a fisheries perspective, whales just don't reproduce enough to sustain a heavily impacted population. This is why though most whaling ended decades, even centuries ago in some cases, the population numbers are still low.

Also, the primary demand was for whale oil, not whale meat. Petroleum products have long since replaced almost all whale oil uses, thus lowering the demand.

Per management, they are managed, as much as any marine species is managed... that is, a few international treaties are enforced, but a lot is left up to various countries. Teh distance a country can "control" off its shores varies, but is dictated by international law.

Of course, any international law is by its nature weaker than more localized laws. Japan and Norway have used a scientific fishing exclusion to justify some small scale whaling, which is largely what Greenpeace, etc target. Ironically, the US is one country that has not (unless this changed in the past few years) signed onto the international bans on whaling, largely because they want to maintain the right of the Inuit to whale.


Aye, but there's a fair bit of background as to why Japan took that approach, although the hypocrisy of allowing whaling for Americans is certainly part of it-

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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby Army of GOD on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:13 am

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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby Funkyterrance on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:17 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:Yeah the whole ramming the shit out of sharks until they sink to the bottom a bloody pulp is pretty badass. Dolphins are cool beans.


Actually, dolphins are fish.

Damn, I'm going to demand a refund from the University for my Oceanology course.
Oddly enough, I looked it up and we're both wrong. They're actually marsupials.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby tzor on Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:36 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Actually, dolphins are fish.


In other places, the "Dolphinfish" is known as mahi-mahi
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:40 pm

Symmetry wrote:Aye, but there's a fair bit of background as to why Japan took that approach, although the hypocrisy of allowing whaling for Americans is certainly part of it-

Uh... could be I was giving a highly shortened synopse ;) (did I mention having sat in on a few international whaling commission meetings, not to mention a few other international fishery allocation meetings myself?)
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby gordon1975 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:27 pm

whaling is wrong!ive seen Star Trek IV,argument finished!!!
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby Symmetry on Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:21 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Aye, but there's a fair bit of background as to why Japan took that approach, although the hypocrisy of allowing whaling for Americans is certainly part of it-

Uh... could be I was giving a highly shortened synopse ;) (did I mention having sat in on a few international whaling commission meetings, not to mention a few other international fishery allocation meetings myself?)


I'm not surprised- the hypocrisy on the issue was a big thing in Japan too- and that goes for the Japanese pro-whaling lobby as much as the anti-whaling lobby.

It also goes both ways for much of the debate in the UK about fishing quotas in general.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:27 pm

Symmetry wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Aye, but there's a fair bit of background as to why Japan took that approach, although the hypocrisy of allowing whaling for Americans is certainly part of it-

Uh... could be I was giving a highly shortened synopse ;) (did I mention having sat in on a few international whaling commission meetings, not to mention a few other international fishery allocation meetings myself?)


I'm not surprised- the hypocrisy on the issue was a big thing in Japan too- and that goes for the Japanese pro-whaling lobby as much as the anti-whaling lobby.

It also goes both ways for much of the debate in the UK about fishing quotas in general.

I try to stick to the biology. My view is that the limits should be set by biological realities, not political wishes. Its funny, though, how many people seem to think that politics can dictate biology or environmental facts just because they wish it so.

I remember my professor talking about all the big players of that decade fighting over the Pollock fishery. In there was, I think Poland, wanting a mere fraction of what the other folks' wanted and very much dependent upon that small fraction to feed itself. It would have been easy for the big guys to just say "OK... let's just give the Poles their piece".. and move on, but it naturally could not happen that way.

I have no biological problem with allowing a few Inuit to take a couple of whales... or even allowing Japan to take a very few under certain limited conditions. I have a big problem with Japan and Norway each claiming to be doing scientific investigations, but somehow managing to sell the meat on the open market.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:44 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Aye, but there's a fair bit of background as to why Japan took that approach, although the hypocrisy of allowing whaling for Americans is certainly part of it-

Uh... could be I was giving a highly shortened synopse ;) (did I mention having sat in on a few international whaling commission meetings, not to mention a few other international fishery allocation meetings myself?)


I'm not surprised- the hypocrisy on the issue was a big thing in Japan too- and that goes for the Japanese pro-whaling lobby as much as the anti-whaling lobby.

It also goes both ways for much of the debate in the UK about fishing quotas in general.

I try to stick to the biology. My view is that the limits should be set by biological realities, not political wishes. Its funny, though, how many people seem to think that politics can dictate biology or environmental facts just because they wish it so.

I remember my professor talking about all the big players of that decade fighting over the Pollock fishery. In there was, I think Poland, wanting a mere fraction of what the other folks' wanted and very much dependent upon that small fraction to feed itself. It would have been easy for the big guys to just say "OK... let's just give the Poles their piece".. and move on, but it naturally could not happen that way.

I have no biological problem with allowing a few Inuit to take a couple of whales... or even allowing Japan to take a very few under certain limited conditions. I have a big problem with Japan and Norway each claiming to be doing scientific investigations, but somehow managing to sell the meat on the open market.


Of course the biological argument is that whales aren't an endangered species, indeed, not a species at all. And the majority of whales killed by the Japanese aren't endagered either. If you're ok with the Americans killing endangered whales, but your position is that it shouldn't be done if it's labelled in the wrong way, I don't think you have a reasonable point.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:15 am

Symmetry wrote: Of course the biological argument is that whales aren't an endangered species, indeed, not a species at all. And the majority of whales killed by the Japanese aren't endagered either. If you're ok with the Americans killing endangered whales, but your position is that it shouldn't be done if it's labelled in the wrong way, I don't think you have a reasonable point.

I admit it has been a few years since I researched this topic, so it is possible that some factors have changed.

However, I believe that the only people claiming whales are not endangered are those wanting to hunt them.

From the outset, I am not saying I utterly ignore the "moral" bit. I now enough about whales to say that while they are certainly not with human intelligence or anything close, they are intelligent. I am not comfortable with any hunting for those reasons... but, I am OK with hunting deer, eat pork and do recognize that this is an inconsistant view.

Its just that I think there are enough purely biological reasons right now to leave the discussion on those grounds... and let research develop on the other fronts, for the time being. The morality issue just has no firm answer.

Anyway, my understanding is that ALL cetaceans, with the possible exception of a couple of porpoises, are endangered. For the inuit, taking a whale is a big part of certain tribe's culture. I won't get into all that here, but when the whales go.. those tribes will simply no be, culturally, any more. That time of change is actually inevitable, may even be here for a variety of reasons. However, as long as the people are holding to traditions and living the basically traditional lifestyle (albiet with electricty, etc.), then I think they have a right to continue, even if it means hunting whales. The number of whales they have EVER taken was very few. It is within a sustainable limit, even for a highly depressed species. For both of those reasons, I think allowing specific "Eskimo" tribes to hunt whale is OK.

Japan and Norway, to contrast, essentially revel in the future. We are not talking about Sami, but modern, highly technical hunters. Then the question is one of biology. Either the population CAN sustain the hunt or it cannot. So far, the consensus is mostly "no", but these nations have skirted around that. I believe that discussion should be open, honest and up front. Either there is a sustainble population with fishing or not.

OH-- one more bit, while I try to avoid the whole "should we hunt whales at all [because they are "Flipper" or "Shamu", more or less),I DO think discussion of ethical, humane hunting techniques is warranted. When an animal is slaughtered on a farm, there are rules to make sure the animal is killed in a relatively painfree way, is held up until slaughter in reasonable conditions, etc. This is another reason why Japan rather stands out. Their methods have often been shown to be repulsive.
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Re: Why is Whaling Illegal?

Postby Symmetry on Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:42 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Symmetry wrote: Of course the biological argument is that whales aren't an endangered species, indeed, not a species at all. And the majority of whales killed by the Japanese aren't endagered either. If you're ok with the Americans killing endangered whales, but your position is that it shouldn't be done if it's labelled in the wrong way, I don't think you have a reasonable point.

I admit it has been a few years since I researched this topic, so it is possible that some factors have changed.

However, I believe that the only people claiming whales are not endangered are those wanting to hunt them.

From the outset, I am not saying I utterly ignore the "moral" bit. I now enough about whales to say that while they are certainly not with human intelligence or anything close, they are intelligent. I am not comfortable with any hunting for those reasons... but, I am OK with hunting deer, eat pork and do recognize that this is an inconsistant view.

Its just that I think there are enough purely biological reasons right now to leave the discussion on those grounds... and let research develop on the other fronts, for the time being. The morality issue just has no firm answer.

Anyway, my understanding is that ALL cetaceans, with the possible exception of a couple of porpoises, are endangered. For the inuit, taking a whale is a big part of certain tribe's culture. I won't get into all that here, but when the whales go.. those tribes will simply no be, culturally, any more. That time of change is actually inevitable, may even be here for a variety of reasons. However, as long as the people are holding to traditions and living the basically traditional lifestyle (albiet with electricty, etc.), then I think they have a right to continue, even if it means hunting whales. The number of whales they have EVER taken was very few. It is within a sustainable limit, even for a highly depressed species. For both of those reasons, I think allowing specific "Eskimo" tribes to hunt whale is OK.

Japan and Norway, to contrast, essentially revel in the future. We are not talking about Sami, but modern, highly technical hunters. Then the question is one of biology. Either the population CAN sustain the hunt or it cannot. So far, the consensus is mostly "no", but these nations have skirted around that. I believe that discussion should be open, honest and up front. Either there is a sustainble population with fishing or not.

OH-- one more bit, while I try to avoid the whole "should we hunt whales at all [because they are "Flipper" or "Shamu", more or less),I DO think discussion of ethical, humane hunting techniques is warranted. When an animal is slaughtered on a farm, there are rules to make sure the animal is killed in a relatively painfree way, is held up until slaughter in reasonable conditions, etc. This is another reason why Japan rather stands out. Their methods have often been shown to be repulsive.


I'm not sure if fishing under any form is really valid compared farming to farming in this argument.

Japanese whaling is pretty sustainable. While it is true that they do take some endangered species, or those that are threatened species. most of what they catch is the minke whale. Which isn't endangered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minke_whale#Population_and_conservation_status

Bluefin Tuna, however, is where Japan and the world is really in trouble, but it's not as interesting as a cause.
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