Should Laws Expire?

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Should Laws Expire?

Postby / on Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:53 pm

Thomas Jefferson believed that it was the right of every generation to self govern, making laws and constitutions that suit the needs and wants of the people of their own era, rather than being forced to follow laws that suited previous generations.

On similar ground it may be proved that no society can make a perpetual constitution, or even a perpetual law. The earth belongs always to the living generation. They may manage it then, and what proceeds from it, as they please, during their usufruct. They are masters too of their own persons, and consequently may govern them as they please. But persons and property make the sum of the objects of government. The constitution and the laws of their predecessors extinguished then in their natural course with those who gave them being. This could preserve that being till it ceased to be itself, and no longer. Every constitution then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of 19 years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force, and not of right.--It may be said that the succeeding generation exercising in fact the power of repeal, this leaves them as free as if the constitution or law has been expressly limited to 19 years only. In the first place, this objection admits the right, in proposing an equivalent. But the power of repeal is not an equivalent. It might be indeed if every form of government were so perfectly contrived that the will of the majority could always be obtained fairly and without impediment. But this is true of no form. The people cannot assemble themselves. Their representation is unequal and vicious. Various checks are opposed to every legislative proposition. Factions get possession of the public councils. Bribery corrupts them. Personal interests lead them astray from the general interests of their constituents: and other impediments arise so as to prove to every practical man that a law of limited duration is much more manageable than one which needs a repeal.


http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders ... h2s23.html


He believed it was best for all laws and constitutions to expire every 19 years. Do you believe the laws should expire, and if so how long should any given law last?
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Re: Should Laws Expire?

Postby saxitoxin on Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:14 pm

Maybe tzor can clarify this, but I thought New York's constitution expired every 20 years unless it's extended in a referendum. Or maybe I'm thinking of New Jersey?
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Re: Should Laws Expire?

Postby Night Strike on Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:35 pm

I've always thought that one of the biggest violations of the Constitution with current laws is the "automatic spending (increases)" that takes place every year in regards to Medicare, Medicaid, welfare, etc. No Congress should be able to force future Congresses into spending as each Congress should be passing their own spending bills. Of course, that's also why every Congress should be balancing the budget every year: so future Congresses aren't forced to pay principle and interest on the previous spending.
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Re: Should Laws Expire?

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:39 pm

"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: Should Laws Expire?

Postby / on Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:01 pm

Because of outdated default regulatory laws, and the current lawmaking deadlock; dairy and other grocery prices could skyrocket, using production cost models that no longer exist.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-575 ... farm-bill/



The "dairy cliff" is just the most immediate of what would be gradual price increases on foods across grocery stores if Congress doesn't pass a farm bill to replace the one that expired nearly three months ago. Technically, farm regulations since the end of September have been operating under a 1949 "permanent" law. Because the 2008 law covered all crops planted in 2012, though, and federal funding for many agricultural programs is assured through March 2013, lawmakers have enjoyed a bit of a grace period until Jan. 1, when products like milk could skyrocket to prices based on dairy farm production costs 64 years ago.
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Re: Should Laws Expire?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:09 pm

I heard 7$ a gallon for milk.
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Re: Should Laws Expire?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:29 pm

/ wrote:Thomas Jefferson believed that it was the right of every generation to self govern, making laws and constitutions that suit the needs and wants of the people of their own era, rather than being forced to follow laws that suited previous generations.

On similar ground it may be proved that no society can make a perpetual constitution, or even a perpetual law. The earth belongs always to the living generation. They may manage it then, and what proceeds from it, as they please, during their usufruct. They are masters too of their own persons, and consequently may govern them as they please. But persons and property make the sum of the objects of government. The constitution and the laws of their predecessors extinguished then in their natural course with those who gave them being. This could preserve that being till it ceased to be itself, and no longer. Every constitution then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of 19 years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force, and not of right.--It may be said that the succeeding generation exercising in fact the power of repeal, this leaves them as free as if the constitution or law has been expressly limited to 19 years only. In the first place, this objection admits the right, in proposing an equivalent. But the power of repeal is not an equivalent. It might be indeed if every form of government were so perfectly contrived that the will of the majority could always be obtained fairly and without impediment. But this is true of no form. The people cannot assemble themselves. Their representation is unequal and vicious. Various checks are opposed to every legislative proposition. Factions get possession of the public councils. Bribery corrupts them. Personal interests lead them astray from the general interests of their constituents: and other impediments arise so as to prove to every practical man that a law of limited duration is much more manageable than one which needs a repeal.


http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders ... h2s23.html


He believed it was best for all laws and constitutions to expire every 19 years. Do you believe the laws should expire, and if so how long should any given law last?


It doesn't make sense to re-argue every single point constantly. That would just be a waste of time and energy. I mean, our roads are designed for people to drive on the right, even kids know that "red means stop", etc. Basic contracts would have little validity if the law could utterly change everything everyt 2 decades.

However, each generation should, and does, have the opportunity to change the rules when needed. If there is a problem, its in the difficulty of changing laws or in the fact that current law is so very complex most individuals cannot really and truly understand but small pieces of it.
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Re: Should Laws Expire?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:33 pm

Night Strike wrote:I've always thought that one of the biggest violations of the Constitution with current laws is the "automatic spending (increases)" that takes place every year in regards to Medicare, Medicaid, welfare, etc. No Congress should be able to force future Congresses into spending as each Congress should be passing their own spending bills. Of course, that's also why every Congress should be balancing the budget every year: so future Congresses aren't forced to pay principle and interest on the previous spending.

I could go for that.. if the money for those programs were actually set aside for those programs and not just put into the general fund and used to supply more and more basic needs.

Why is it that your type of "responsibility" applies so forcefully to individuals, but not to groups or corporations. The deficite problem is not kids eating food stamp food or retirees getting healthcare. Its we having to carry more and more of the burden encurred by OTHERS.. not individuals primarily, but corporations and political entities that have no heart, no brain, no morals... just legislative guidelines and contracts. No blood, just paper creations.
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Re: Should Laws Expire?

Postby Night Strike on Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:54 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:However, each generation should, and does, have the opportunity to change the rules when needed. If there is a problem, its in the difficulty of changing laws or in the fact that current law is so very complex most individuals cannot really and truly understand but small pieces of it.


That's what happens when the executive branch is making the laws alongside Congress while both branches are using the federal government to consolidate their own power and hand out favors to others. Stop passing dozens of new regulations for every law passed and the law will be much less complex and much easier to decipher and update when necessary.
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