Oh Posterity!

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Oh Posterity!

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:46 pm

"You will never know how much it cost us to preserve your freedom. I hope that you will make a good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that I ever took half the pains to preserve it."

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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby Juan_Bottom on Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:44 pm

John Adams was a Christian Liberal. And probably the best president we've ever had, all things considered.
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby Juan_Bottom on Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:45 pm

And certainly it's hard to say who was the biggest hero of the Revolution, but I think most historians and learned people would have to agree that it was either George Washington or John Adams.
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby chang50 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:40 am

Phatscotty wrote:"You will never know how much it cost us to preserve your freedom. I hope that you will make a good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that I ever took half the pains to preserve it."



Another golden age that only exists in fertile imaginations,Adams did nothing to preserve the freedom of millions of slaves and native Americans..
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby Juan_Bottom on Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:06 am

That's not true,
and if you added together all of the slaves and Native Americans in our country during Adams time it wouldn't have been anywhere near a million. Even using America's current borders you still wouldn't hit a million.
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby chang50 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:28 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:That's not true,
and if you added together all of the slaves and Native Americans in our country during Adams time it wouldn't have been anywhere near a million. Even using America's current borders you still wouldn't hit a million.


So how do you preserve the freedom of a slave?According to the 1800 census there were 893,000 slaves in the US,which added to the estimated 600,000 native Americans within the current borders is nearly 1.5 million.Less than I thought I will admit,but well over a million.
The pre-Columbus estimate for the current US borders is 12 million,I hadn't realised how effective the genocide had been 1492-1800.
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:53 pm

chang50 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:"You will never know how much it cost us to preserve your freedom. I hope that you will make a good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that I ever took half the pains to preserve it."



Another golden age that only exists in fertile imaginations,Adams did nothing to preserve the freedom of millions of slaves and native Americans..



Juan_Bottom wrote:That's not true,
and if you added together all of the slaves and Native Americans in our country during Adams time it wouldn't have been anywhere near a million. Even using America's current borders you still wouldn't hit a million.


I agree with Juan. Say what you want about him, he is knowledgeable.

It's not true for other reasons also. John Adams was strongly against slavery, and so was his wife Abigal, and in fact his oldest son, John Quincy Adams, was an abolitionist mentor to none-other than Abraham Lincoln. At this point you google dictionary "abolitionist" and "posterity"

Just a word from experience to you Chang: You carry a lot of weight in homosexual discussions, but hear me when I say, ignorant shit like this will follow you from here to there, even though they have nothing to do with each other.

Oh wait, Conservatives don't go that low. Nevermind...

And as for your ignorant slavery comments, my country abolished slavery within it's first born generation.
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby Juan_Bottom on Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:12 pm

chang50 wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:That's not true,
and if you added together all of the slaves and Native Americans in our country during Adams time it wouldn't have been anywhere near a million. Even using America's current borders you still wouldn't hit a million.


So how do you preserve the freedom of a slave? According to the 1800 census there were 893,000 slaves in the US,which added to the estimated 600,000 native Americans within the current borders is nearly 1.5 million. Less than I thought I will admit,but well over a million.
The pre-Columbus estimate for the current US borders is 12 million,I hadn't realized how effective the genocide had been 1492-1800.


Ok, well, I'll write a book.

It is a well-known fact that both John and Abigail were ardently against slavery, and both were outspoken about it, which goes without saying. When they were married, they received a pair of slave children as a wedding gift. Horrified, John and Abigail immediately set them free. Years later when Abigail moved to France/Netherlands/England where John worked as our Ambassador, Abigail left their home and grounds in the care of a recently married black couple. Abigale even had them move into the bedroom she shared with John; no big deal, but not behavior you'd expect from any racist. When Abigail traveled to Virginia to see our new Capitol under construction, she had a lot to write home about what she saw... In fact, I would argue that except for maybe Lincoln, no other president or first lady has ever been so opposed to slavery. What you don't understand, and nobody does anymore, is that politics during Adam's time were incomparable to today. Massachusetts could not exist without total cooperation from Virginia, and vice versa. Literally until just before Lincoln's election the South could have seceded at any time and the North couldn't have have stopped them. This dependency was ever greater during the Revolutionary and post-Revolutionary years.
And about his politics; John Adam's wrote the world's oldest serving Constitution. He was our busiest member of Congress, probably ever. He braved traveling to France, through a British Blockade, during storm season, while fully aware that the crown had named him to be hanged if captured. We aren't talking about Barack Obama interpreting the Constitution this way or that. This was the originator... the man who literally designed our system of government* from the bottom up, and then threw away a successful career and risked his life over and over again for his cause of freedom.
You know, John Adam's liked to say in private that Thomas Pain was wonderful at tearing down the British Government, but knew nothing about building a new government in it's place.

But what you're wondering is, if John Adam's loved freedom so much, why didn't he end slavery?
Well for starters, he did end slavery for Americans. And I'm talking from both the British and the ominous threat of the French... He was the Declaration of Independence's first and loudest champion, and later refused to give in to any threats of occupation or war from both France and England.

But as for the slaves and indentured servants the answer is quite simply that he had no ability, power, or authority to do so. But there are some steps that he did take entirely on his own. He was asked to write Massachusetts' Constitution alone, which was a monumental task that he soberly accepted. And in Adam's Constitution (again, the oldest serving Constitution in the world) he went out of his way to state that all men were born free equals**. This allowed Massachusetts, Adam's home state, to end slavery all the frickin' way back in 1783. It was pretty obvious, I think, what Adam's intention was when the Constitution was ratified in 1780***, which is why slavery was so soon ended. I don't know of any opposition or discussion about that part either during the ratification process.
Adams was in France when England finally decided to ask for peace, and since he was aptly placed and qualified, he was trusted by Congress to lead in the peace talks. However, France was not interested in a free and independent America, and demanded that Congress grant the final approval of any treatys to His most Christian Majesty, the King of France. This would have rendered America a French puppet state. Yet Congress agreed. Adams however, was as mad as he'd ever been in all his life, and acting with rare support from Benjamin Franklin, he ignored Congress and told the French to gfy. Then with John Jay in tow he went out and brokered a peace that included, astonishingly, full American Independence from Britain. It was far more than anyone actually expected, and it was John Adams who made it happen, and set you free.
Adams remained in Europe for some time, negotiating loans and acting as Ambassador to England, the Netherlands, and sometimes France. And he was in Europe when Congress created our American Constitution. He had no participation in the process, aside from some personal letters that he wrote, and his highly influential book about how to construct a Republic. But those men that did write the American Constitution, adopted in 1787, prevented Congress from even regulating the importation of slaves and tied the president's hands on the matter as well.
Now, in 1789 Adams became the President of the Senate (VP of the US). So he wasn't allowed to debate policies or bills. Although he sometimes did and also cast a crapload of tie-breaking votes.... but anyway that's not the point... as president of the Senate he did nothing but call names and break ties. He served two terms as Washington's VP and then was elected president himself, and as the POTUS Adams made several speeches exposing his adamant belief in cooperation and peace with Europe and with the American tribes. He kept his word where the tribes were concerned, but again he was forced to defend America from France. The new post-revolution french government had been capturing American ships on the seas and slaving their crews, using the ships and any cargo to fund the French war in Europe. They sometimes tortured merchant captains until and unless the captain said that their ship's cargo was actually British property. Adams showed some real backbone here, and against Congresses wishes was able to fund the building of new American warships. Then he ordered our old ones to defend our merchant shipping lanes. Although Adam's argued, again and again, that what he meant for was peace, he also insisted that America needed to be able to defend herself in order to make that peace a reality. Adams was skewered in the press as a war monger. Yet it was this navy that influenced the French to back off and even helped convince Napoleon to sell Louisiana to us. For this reason, and for his time drafting our Navy's laws (which I won't devote any time to), Adam's is known as the Grandfather of the American Navy. But the lesson is that Adams himself gave all of us the wisdom and tools to live forever free.


As for my numbers on slaves & Natives - I was going by memory. As I recalled it was estimated that there were between 300,000 and 600,000 Native Americans living in America's present borders when we ratified the Constitution. And that there were an estimated 300,000 slaves in the states in the 1770s. It makes sense that there wouldn't be many slaves in the colonies at that time, because a small yet significant number went over to the British hoping for their freedom (who wouldn't?), and there was an embargo going on, so new slaves couldn't be imported. Furthermore, any resources normally spent in the slave trade would have been put toward the war effort. I read this number in a book somewhere, though I can't remember which or when. Six and three would still keep us just under a million, but I checked wiki and I cannot find slave numbers for the 1770s. I don't think it's something to quibble over, and it's beside the point. Even when Adams was president America was only East of the Mississippi, but did not even include Florida. He wasn't the president of massive territory and didn't have the power to end slavery.
I don't believe that it is fair to blame Adams for not freeing the slaves while he was in Europe or after he returned, because he didn't have the authority or power. He never owned a slave and he was outspoken against it. The only time he could have done anything to stop slavery was when he was a Congressman in the 1770s, and that's why I was using those dates. But at that time the States were still independent.
Anecdote-ally though, Thomas Jefferson gave Adams a copy of his book Notes on the State of Virginia. Adams read the entire book out loud to his wife and daughter Nabby. I've always wondered what Adam's and his family thought while reading Jefferson's explanation that Negros smell terribly because they excrete part of their body's waste through their pores and that Jefferson "could only speculate" that white's were indeed the superior race. You know that they did not believe such nonsense, but how would they have felt hearing such careless words from such a beloved family friend? Whatever the case, we do know from personal correspondences that Abigail really let Jefferson have it when the sex scandal between Jefferson and his slave broke, and that Adam's too, believed it and was greatly disappointed, though he wasn't talking to Jefferson about it.

Also, it probably just slipped your mind, but disease was the number one killer of Native Americans. This has to be especially true up until the migration west. Louis and Clarke wrote that even sick tribes were still warring with each other, even as everyone was dying or bedridden. Tribal politics were intense and confusing.



*Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America & he also wrote Thoughts on Government which influenced every state Constitution.

**Adam's was not a sexist and said many times over that his wife was his equal and that she would have made as good of a politician as anyone he ever knew. Indeed he meant it; she was his political adviser.

*** Well before the US Constitution was ratified
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby Juan_Bottom on Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:14 pm

All of that was from memory btw, but I did have to check some of the dates.
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:29 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:All of that was from memory btw, but I did have to check some of the dates.



Don't forget about Franklin...

But Jefferson did, in a way, make Juan's point, and Adam's as well, and he did so publicly. These were serious guys dealing with serious issues, and creating a new world...the way I try to make that point is "there is no slavery switch that you can turn on and off. it needed to be invented, created, nurtured, brought to adulthood and at the right time..."



another clip I think you would enjoy. Franklin's response to Adams after he told France to gfy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-PtozBKSBE&t=6m45s

I love John Adams! still working on his autobiography and looking forward to the one DoomYoshi recco'd. JB how or why is it you happen to know so much about all this?
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby chang50 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:41 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:
chang50 wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:That's not true,
and if you added together all of the slaves and Native Americans in our country during Adams time it wouldn't have been anywhere near a million. Even using America's current borders you still wouldn't hit a million.


So how do you preserve the freedom of a slave? According to the 1800 census there were 893,000 slaves in the US,which added to the estimated 600,000 native Americans within the current borders is nearly 1.5 million. Less than I thought I will admit,but well over a million.
The pre-Columbus estimate for the current US borders is 12 million,I hadn't realized how effective the genocide had been 1492-1800.


Ok, well, I'll write a book.

It is a well-known fact that both John and Abigail were ardently against slavery, and both were outspoken about it, which goes without saying. When they were married, they received a pair of slave children as a wedding gift. Horrified, John and Abigail immediately set them free. Years later when Abigail moved to France/Netherlands/England where John worked as our Ambassador, Abigail left their home and grounds in the care of a recently married black couple. Abigale even had them move into the bedroom she shared with John; no big deal, but not behavior you'd expect from any racist. When Abigail traveled to Virginia to see our new Capitol under construction, she had a lot to write home about what she saw... In fact, I would argue that except for maybe Lincoln, no other president or first lady has ever been so opposed to slavery. What you don't understand, and nobody does anymore, is that politics during Adam's time were incomparable to today. Massachusetts could not exist without total cooperation from Virginia, and vice versa. Literally until just before Lincoln's election the South could have seceded at any time and the North couldn't have have stopped them. This dependency was ever greater during the Revolutionary and post-Revolutionary years.
And about his politics; John Adam's wrote the world's oldest serving Constitution. He was our busiest member of Congress, probably ever. He braved traveling to France, through a British Blockade, during storm season, while fully aware that the crown had named him to be hanged if captured. We aren't talking about Barack Obama interpreting the Constitution this way or that. This was the originator... the man who literally designed our system of government* from the bottom up, and then threw away a successful career and risked his life over and over again for his cause of freedom.
You know, John Adam's liked to say in private that Thomas Pain was wonderful at tearing down the British Government, but knew nothing about building a new government in it's place.

But what you're wondering is, if John Adam's loved freedom so much, why didn't he end slavery?
Well for starters, he did end slavery for Americans. And I'm talking from both the British and the ominous threat of the French... He was the Declaration of Independence's first and loudest champion, and later refused to give in to any threats of occupation or war from both France and England.

But as for the slaves and indentured servants the answer is quite simply that he had no ability, power, or authority to do so. But there are some steps that he did take entirely on his own. He was asked to write Massachusetts' Constitution alone, which was a monumental task that he soberly accepted. And in Adam's Constitution (again, the oldest serving Constitution in the world) he went out of his way to state that all men were born free equals**. This allowed Massachusetts, Adam's home state, to end slavery all the frickin' way back in 1783. It was pretty obvious, I think, what Adam's intention was when the Constitution was ratified in 1780***, which is why slavery was so soon ended. I don't know of any opposition or discussion about that part either during the ratification process.
Adams was in France when England finally decided to ask for peace, and since he was aptly placed and qualified, he was trusted by Congress to lead in the peace talks. However, France was not interested in a free and independent America, and demanded that Congress grant the final approval of any treatys to His most Christian Majesty, the King of France. This would have rendered America a French puppet state. Yet Congress agreed. Adams however, was as mad as he'd ever been in all his life, and acting with rare support from Benjamin Franklin, he ignored Congress and told the French to gfy. Then with John Jay in tow he went out and brokered a peace that included, astonishingly, full American Independence from Britain. It was far more than anyone actually expected, and it was John Adams who made it happen, and set you free.
Adams remained in Europe for some time, negotiating loans and acting as Ambassador to England, the Netherlands, and sometimes France. And he was in Europe when Congress created our American Constitution. He had no participation in the process, aside from some personal letters that he wrote, and his highly influential book about how to construct a Republic. But those men that did write the American Constitution, adopted in 1787, prevented Congress from even regulating the importation of slaves and tied the president's hands on the matter as well.
Now, in 1789 Adams became the President of the Senate (VP of the US). So he wasn't allowed to debate policies or bills. Although he sometimes did and also cast a crapload of tie-breaking votes.... but anyway that's not the point... as president of the Senate he did nothing but call names and break ties. He served two terms as Washington's VP and then was elected president himself, and as the POTUS Adams made several speeches exposing his adamant belief in cooperation and peace with Europe and with the American tribes. He kept his word where the tribes were concerned, but again he was forced to defend America from France. The new post-revolution french government had been capturing American ships on the seas and slaving their crews, using the ships and any cargo to fund the French war in Europe. They sometimes tortured merchant captains until and unless the captain said that their ship's cargo was actually British property. Adams showed some real backbone here, and against Congresses wishes was able to fund the building of new American warships. Then he ordered our old ones to defend our merchant shipping lanes. Although Adam's argued, again and again, that what he meant for was peace, he also insisted that America needed to be able to defend herself in order to make that peace a reality. Adams was skewered in the press as a war monger. Yet it was this navy that influenced the French to back off and even helped convince Napoleon to sell Louisiana to us. For this reason, and for his time drafting our Navy's laws (which I won't devote any time to), Adam's is known as the Grandfather of the American Navy. But the lesson is that Adams himself gave all of us the wisdom and tools to live forever free.


As for my numbers on slaves & Natives - I was going by memory. As I recalled it was estimated that there were between 300,000 and 600,000 Native Americans living in America's present borders when we ratified the Constitution. And that there were an estimated 300,000 slaves in the states in the 1770s. It makes sense that there wouldn't be many slaves in the colonies at that time, because a small yet significant number went over to the British hoping for their freedom (who wouldn't?), and there was an embargo going on, so new slaves couldn't be imported. Furthermore, any resources normally spent in the slave trade would have been put toward the war effort. I read this number in a book somewhere, though I can't remember which or when. Six and three would still keep us just under a million, but I checked wiki and I cannot find slave numbers for the 1770s. I don't think it's something to quibble over, and it's beside the point. Even when Adams was president America was only East of the Mississippi, but did not even include Florida. He wasn't the president of massive territory and didn't have the power to end slavery.
I don't believe that it is fair to blame Adams for not freeing the slaves while he was in Europe or after he returned, because he didn't have the authority or power. He never owned a slave and he was outspoken against it. The only time he could have done anything to stop slavery was when he was a Congressman in the 1770s, and that's why I was using those dates. But at that time the States were still independent.
Anecdote-ally though, Thomas Jefferson gave Adams a copy of his book Notes on the State of Virginia. Adams read the entire book out loud to his wife and daughter Nabby. I've always wondered what Adam's and his family thought while reading Jefferson's explanation that Negros smell terribly because they excrete part of their body's waste through their pores and that Jefferson "could only speculate" that white's were indeed the superior race. You know that they did not believe such nonsense, but how would they have felt hearing such careless words from such a beloved family friend? Whatever the case, we do know from personal correspondences that Abigail really let Jefferson have it when the sex scandal between Jefferson and his slave broke, and that Adam's too, believed it and was greatly disappointed, though he wasn't talking to Jefferson about it.

Also, it probably just slipped your mind, but disease was the number one killer of Native Americans. This has to be especially true up until the migration west. Louis and Clarke wrote that even sick tribes were still warring with each other, even as everyone was dying or bedridden. Tribal politics were intense and confusing.



*Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America & he also wrote Thoughts on Government which influenced every state Constitution.

**Adam's was not a sexist and said many times over that his wife was his equal and that she would have made as good of a politician as anyone he ever knew. Indeed he meant it; she was his political adviser.

*** Well before the US Constitution was ratified


Juan I fully accept that it was impossible for Adams to abolish slavery during his presidency,it was a totally different age. My only point was,and is,that however enlightened he was for the times,he did not preserve the freedom of a significant number of Americans, because nobody could.It's also true that disease and inter tribal war was a major killer of Native Americans,but surely you would concede a lot of this disease was introduced to the Americas by the invading Europeans,and was particularly virulent because the indigineous population had little or no resistance.Whether they intended to do this is irrelevant,it was certainly highly useful in decimating any resistance.
Please understand I am not saying what happened in your country was worse than what happened in colonial Africa or Australia,or in most of the world,my own country Britain has a truly shameful and indefensible record.I just don't believe in 'golden ages',anywhere or anytime,and it rankles with me to see people employ cheap appeals to patriotism to glorify a past that was largely barbaric and cruel,in order to score modern day political points.
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby chang50 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:08 am

Phatscotty wrote:
chang50 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:"You will never know how much it cost us to preserve your freedom. I hope that you will make a good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that I ever took half the pains to preserve it."



Another golden age that only exists in fertile imaginations,Adams did nothing to preserve the freedom of millions of slaves and native Americans..



Juan_Bottom wrote:That's not true,
and if you added together all of the slaves and Native Americans in our country during Adams time it wouldn't have been anywhere near a million. Even using America's current borders you still wouldn't hit a million.


I agree with Juan. Say what you want about him, he is knowledgeable.

It's not true for other reasons also. John Adams was strongly against slavery, and so was his wife Abigal, and in fact his oldest son, John Quincy Adams, was an abolitionist mentor to none-other than Abraham Lincoln. At this point you google dictionary "abolitionist" and "posterity"

Just a word from experience to you Chang: You carry a lot of weight in homosexual discussions, but hear me when I say, ignorant shit like this will follow you from here to there, even though they have nothing to do with each other.

Oh wait, Conservatives don't go that low. Nevermind...

And as for your ignorant slavery comments, my country abolished slavery within it's first born generation.


What happened to not responding to foreigners??Guess you just can't help it..next step is to make your responses coherent,intelligible and relevant.I'm up for it..
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:13 am

Juan is made in the USA.

Oh shit! I responded again! Maybe I do respect you?!
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby chang50 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:20 am

Phatscotty wrote:Juan is made in the USA.

Oh shit! I responded again! Maybe I do respect you?!


Better than running away,no???
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:23 am

chang50 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Juan is made in the USA.

Oh shit! I responded again! Maybe I do respect you?!


Better than running away,no???


much better
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Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (3) Random Map Achievement (2)
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