Oh Posterity!

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Oh Posterity!

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:46 pm

"You will never know how much it cost us to preserve your freedom. I hope that you will make a good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that I ever took half the pains to preserve it."

"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby Juan_Bottom on Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:44 pm

John Adams was a Christian Liberal. And probably the best president we've ever had, all things considered.
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby Juan_Bottom on Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:45 pm

And certainly it's hard to say who was the biggest hero of the Revolution, but I think most historians and learned people would have to agree that it was either George Washington or John Adams.
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby chang50 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:40 am

Phatscotty wrote:"You will never know how much it cost us to preserve your freedom. I hope that you will make a good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that I ever took half the pains to preserve it."



Another golden age that only exists in fertile imaginations,Adams did nothing to preserve the freedom of millions of slaves and native Americans..
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby Juan_Bottom on Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:06 am

That's not true,
and if you added together all of the slaves and Native Americans in our country during Adams time it wouldn't have been anywhere near a million. Even using America's current borders you still wouldn't hit a million.
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby chang50 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:28 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:That's not true,
and if you added together all of the slaves and Native Americans in our country during Adams time it wouldn't have been anywhere near a million. Even using America's current borders you still wouldn't hit a million.


So how do you preserve the freedom of a slave?According to the 1800 census there were 893,000 slaves in the US,which added to the estimated 600,000 native Americans within the current borders is nearly 1.5 million.Less than I thought I will admit,but well over a million.
The pre-Columbus estimate for the current US borders is 12 million,I hadn't realised how effective the genocide had been 1492-1800.
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:53 pm

chang50 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:"You will never know how much it cost us to preserve your freedom. I hope that you will make a good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that I ever took half the pains to preserve it."



Another golden age that only exists in fertile imaginations,Adams did nothing to preserve the freedom of millions of slaves and native Americans..



Juan_Bottom wrote:That's not true,
and if you added together all of the slaves and Native Americans in our country during Adams time it wouldn't have been anywhere near a million. Even using America's current borders you still wouldn't hit a million.


I agree with Juan. Say what you want about him, he is knowledgeable.

It's not true for other reasons also. John Adams was strongly against slavery, and so was his wife Abigal, and in fact his oldest son, John Quincy Adams, was an abolitionist mentor to none-other than Abraham Lincoln. At this point you google dictionary "abolitionist" and "posterity"

Just a word from experience to you Chang: You carry a lot of weight in homosexual discussions, but hear me when I say, ignorant shit like this will follow you from here to there, even though they have nothing to do with each other.

Oh wait, Conservatives don't go that low. Nevermind...

And as for your ignorant slavery comments, my country abolished slavery within it's first born generation.
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby Juan_Bottom on Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:12 pm

chang50 wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:That's not true,
and if you added together all of the slaves and Native Americans in our country during Adams time it wouldn't have been anywhere near a million. Even using America's current borders you still wouldn't hit a million.


So how do you preserve the freedom of a slave? According to the 1800 census there were 893,000 slaves in the US,which added to the estimated 600,000 native Americans within the current borders is nearly 1.5 million. Less than I thought I will admit,but well over a million.
The pre-Columbus estimate for the current US borders is 12 million,I hadn't realized how effective the genocide had been 1492-1800.


Ok, well, I'll write a book.

It is a well-known fact that both John and Abigail were ardently against slavery, and both were outspoken about it, which goes without saying. When they were married, they received a pair of slave children as a wedding gift. Horrified, John and Abigail immediately set them free. Years later when Abigail moved to France/Netherlands/England where John worked as our Ambassador, Abigail left their home and grounds in the care of a recently married black couple. Abigale even had them move into the bedroom she shared with John; no big deal, but not behavior you'd expect from any racist. When Abigail traveled to Virginia to see our new Capitol under construction, she had a lot to write home about what she saw... In fact, I would argue that except for maybe Lincoln, no other president or first lady has ever been so opposed to slavery. What you don't understand, and nobody does anymore, is that politics during Adam's time were incomparable to today. Massachusetts could not exist without total cooperation from Virginia, and vice versa. Literally until just before Lincoln's election the South could have seceded at any time and the North couldn't have have stopped them. This dependency was ever greater during the Revolutionary and post-Revolutionary years.
And about his politics; John Adam's wrote the world's oldest serving Constitution. He was our busiest member of Congress, probably ever. He braved traveling to France, through a British Blockade, during storm season, while fully aware that the crown had named him to be hanged if captured. We aren't talking about Barack Obama interpreting the Constitution this way or that. This was the originator... the man who literally designed our system of government* from the bottom up, and then threw away a successful career and risked his life over and over again for his cause of freedom.
You know, John Adam's liked to say in private that Thomas Pain was wonderful at tearing down the British Government, but knew nothing about building a new government in it's place.

But what you're wondering is, if John Adam's loved freedom so much, why didn't he end slavery?
Well for starters, he did end slavery for Americans. And I'm talking from both the British and the ominous threat of the French... He was the Declaration of Independence's first and loudest champion, and later refused to give in to any threats of occupation or war from both France and England.

But as for the slaves and indentured servants the answer is quite simply that he had no ability, power, or authority to do so. But there are some steps that he did take entirely on his own. He was asked to write Massachusetts' Constitution alone, which was a monumental task that he soberly accepted. And in Adam's Constitution (again, the oldest serving Constitution in the world) he went out of his way to state that all men were born free equals**. This allowed Massachusetts, Adam's home state, to end slavery all the frickin' way back in 1783. It was pretty obvious, I think, what Adam's intention was when the Constitution was ratified in 1780***, which is why slavery was so soon ended. I don't know of any opposition or discussion about that part either during the ratification process.
Adams was in France when England finally decided to ask for peace, and since he was aptly placed and qualified, he was trusted by Congress to lead in the peace talks. However, France was not interested in a free and independent America, and demanded that Congress grant the final approval of any treatys to His most Christian Majesty, the King of France. This would have rendered America a French puppet state. Yet Congress agreed. Adams however, was as mad as he'd ever been in all his life, and acting with rare support from Benjamin Franklin, he ignored Congress and told the French to gfy. Then with John Jay in tow he went out and brokered a peace that included, astonishingly, full American Independence from Britain. It was far more than anyone actually expected, and it was John Adams who made it happen, and set you free.
Adams remained in Europe for some time, negotiating loans and acting as Ambassador to England, the Netherlands, and sometimes France. And he was in Europe when Congress created our American Constitution. He had no participation in the process, aside from some personal letters that he wrote, and his highly influential book about how to construct a Republic. But those men that did write the American Constitution, adopted in 1787, prevented Congress from even regulating the importation of slaves and tied the president's hands on the matter as well.
Now, in 1789 Adams became the President of the Senate (VP of the US). So he wasn't allowed to debate policies or bills. Although he sometimes did and also cast a crapload of tie-breaking votes.... but anyway that's not the point... as president of the Senate he did nothing but call names and break ties. He served two terms as Washington's VP and then was elected president himself, and as the POTUS Adams made several speeches exposing his adamant belief in cooperation and peace with Europe and with the American tribes. He kept his word where the tribes were concerned, but again he was forced to defend America from France. The new post-revolution french government had been capturing American ships on the seas and slaving their crews, using the ships and any cargo to fund the French war in Europe. They sometimes tortured merchant captains until and unless the captain said that their ship's cargo was actually British property. Adams showed some real backbone here, and against Congresses wishes was able to fund the building of new American warships. Then he ordered our old ones to defend our merchant shipping lanes. Although Adam's argued, again and again, that what he meant for was peace, he also insisted that America needed to be able to defend herself in order to make that peace a reality. Adams was skewered in the press as a war monger. Yet it was this navy that influenced the French to back off and even helped convince Napoleon to sell Louisiana to us. For this reason, and for his time drafting our Navy's laws (which I won't devote any time to), Adam's is known as the Grandfather of the American Navy. But the lesson is that Adams himself gave all of us the wisdom and tools to live forever free.


As for my numbers on slaves & Natives - I was going by memory. As I recalled it was estimated that there were between 300,000 and 600,000 Native Americans living in America's present borders when we ratified the Constitution. And that there were an estimated 300,000 slaves in the states in the 1770s. It makes sense that there wouldn't be many slaves in the colonies at that time, because a small yet significant number went over to the British hoping for their freedom (who wouldn't?), and there was an embargo going on, so new slaves couldn't be imported. Furthermore, any resources normally spent in the slave trade would have been put toward the war effort. I read this number in a book somewhere, though I can't remember which or when. Six and three would still keep us just under a million, but I checked wiki and I cannot find slave numbers for the 1770s. I don't think it's something to quibble over, and it's beside the point. Even when Adams was president America was only East of the Mississippi, but did not even include Florida. He wasn't the president of massive territory and didn't have the power to end slavery.
I don't believe that it is fair to blame Adams for not freeing the slaves while he was in Europe or after he returned, because he didn't have the authority or power. He never owned a slave and he was outspoken against it. The only time he could have done anything to stop slavery was when he was a Congressman in the 1770s, and that's why I was using those dates. But at that time the States were still independent.
Anecdote-ally though, Thomas Jefferson gave Adams a copy of his book Notes on the State of Virginia. Adams read the entire book out loud to his wife and daughter Nabby. I've always wondered what Adam's and his family thought while reading Jefferson's explanation that Negros smell terribly because they excrete part of their body's waste through their pores and that Jefferson "could only speculate" that white's were indeed the superior race. You know that they did not believe such nonsense, but how would they have felt hearing such careless words from such a beloved family friend? Whatever the case, we do know from personal correspondences that Abigail really let Jefferson have it when the sex scandal between Jefferson and his slave broke, and that Adam's too, believed it and was greatly disappointed, though he wasn't talking to Jefferson about it.

Also, it probably just slipped your mind, but disease was the number one killer of Native Americans. This has to be especially true up until the migration west. Louis and Clarke wrote that even sick tribes were still warring with each other, even as everyone was dying or bedridden. Tribal politics were intense and confusing.



*Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America & he also wrote Thoughts on Government which influenced every state Constitution.

**Adam's was not a sexist and said many times over that his wife was his equal and that she would have made as good of a politician as anyone he ever knew. Indeed he meant it; she was his political adviser.

*** Well before the US Constitution was ratified
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby Juan_Bottom on Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:14 pm

All of that was from memory btw, but I did have to check some of the dates.
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:29 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:All of that was from memory btw, but I did have to check some of the dates.



Don't forget about Franklin...

But Jefferson did, in a way, make Juan's point, and Adam's as well, and he did so publicly. These were serious guys dealing with serious issues, and creating a new world...the way I try to make that point is "there is no slavery switch that you can turn on and off. it needed to be invented, created, nurtured, brought to adulthood and at the right time..."



another clip I think you would enjoy. Franklin's response to Adams after he told France to gfy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-PtozBKSBE&t=6m45s

I love John Adams! still working on his autobiography and looking forward to the one DoomYoshi recco'd. JB how or why is it you happen to know so much about all this?
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby chang50 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:41 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:
chang50 wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:That's not true,
and if you added together all of the slaves and Native Americans in our country during Adams time it wouldn't have been anywhere near a million. Even using America's current borders you still wouldn't hit a million.


So how do you preserve the freedom of a slave? According to the 1800 census there were 893,000 slaves in the US,which added to the estimated 600,000 native Americans within the current borders is nearly 1.5 million. Less than I thought I will admit,but well over a million.
The pre-Columbus estimate for the current US borders is 12 million,I hadn't realized how effective the genocide had been 1492-1800.


Ok, well, I'll write a book.

It is a well-known fact that both John and Abigail were ardently against slavery, and both were outspoken about it, which goes without saying. When they were married, they received a pair of slave children as a wedding gift. Horrified, John and Abigail immediately set them free. Years later when Abigail moved to France/Netherlands/England where John worked as our Ambassador, Abigail left their home and grounds in the care of a recently married black couple. Abigale even had them move into the bedroom she shared with John; no big deal, but not behavior you'd expect from any racist. When Abigail traveled to Virginia to see our new Capitol under construction, she had a lot to write home about what she saw... In fact, I would argue that except for maybe Lincoln, no other president or first lady has ever been so opposed to slavery. What you don't understand, and nobody does anymore, is that politics during Adam's time were incomparable to today. Massachusetts could not exist without total cooperation from Virginia, and vice versa. Literally until just before Lincoln's election the South could have seceded at any time and the North couldn't have have stopped them. This dependency was ever greater during the Revolutionary and post-Revolutionary years.
And about his politics; John Adam's wrote the world's oldest serving Constitution. He was our busiest member of Congress, probably ever. He braved traveling to France, through a British Blockade, during storm season, while fully aware that the crown had named him to be hanged if captured. We aren't talking about Barack Obama interpreting the Constitution this way or that. This was the originator... the man who literally designed our system of government* from the bottom up, and then threw away a successful career and risked his life over and over again for his cause of freedom.
You know, John Adam's liked to say in private that Thomas Pain was wonderful at tearing down the British Government, but knew nothing about building a new government in it's place.

But what you're wondering is, if John Adam's loved freedom so much, why didn't he end slavery?
Well for starters, he did end slavery for Americans. And I'm talking from both the British and the ominous threat of the French... He was the Declaration of Independence's first and loudest champion, and later refused to give in to any threats of occupation or war from both France and England.

But as for the slaves and indentured servants the answer is quite simply that he had no ability, power, or authority to do so. But there are some steps that he did take entirely on his own. He was asked to write Massachusetts' Constitution alone, which was a monumental task that he soberly accepted. And in Adam's Constitution (again, the oldest serving Constitution in the world) he went out of his way to state that all men were born free equals**. This allowed Massachusetts, Adam's home state, to end slavery all the frickin' way back in 1783. It was pretty obvious, I think, what Adam's intention was when the Constitution was ratified in 1780***, which is why slavery was so soon ended. I don't know of any opposition or discussion about that part either during the ratification process.
Adams was in France when England finally decided to ask for peace, and since he was aptly placed and qualified, he was trusted by Congress to lead in the peace talks. However, France was not interested in a free and independent America, and demanded that Congress grant the final approval of any treatys to His most Christian Majesty, the King of France. This would have rendered America a French puppet state. Yet Congress agreed. Adams however, was as mad as he'd ever been in all his life, and acting with rare support from Benjamin Franklin, he ignored Congress and told the French to gfy. Then with John Jay in tow he went out and brokered a peace that included, astonishingly, full American Independence from Britain. It was far more than anyone actually expected, and it was John Adams who made it happen, and set you free.
Adams remained in Europe for some time, negotiating loans and acting as Ambassador to England, the Netherlands, and sometimes France. And he was in Europe when Congress created our American Constitution. He had no participation in the process, aside from some personal letters that he wrote, and his highly influential book about how to construct a Republic. But those men that did write the American Constitution, adopted in 1787, prevented Congress from even regulating the importation of slaves and tied the president's hands on the matter as well.
Now, in 1789 Adams became the President of the Senate (VP of the US). So he wasn't allowed to debate policies or bills. Although he sometimes did and also cast a crapload of tie-breaking votes.... but anyway that's not the point... as president of the Senate he did nothing but call names and break ties. He served two terms as Washington's VP and then was elected president himself, and as the POTUS Adams made several speeches exposing his adamant belief in cooperation and peace with Europe and with the American tribes. He kept his word where the tribes were concerned, but again he was forced to defend America from France. The new post-revolution french government had been capturing American ships on the seas and slaving their crews, using the ships and any cargo to fund the French war in Europe. They sometimes tortured merchant captains until and unless the captain said that their ship's cargo was actually British property. Adams showed some real backbone here, and against Congresses wishes was able to fund the building of new American warships. Then he ordered our old ones to defend our merchant shipping lanes. Although Adam's argued, again and again, that what he meant for was peace, he also insisted that America needed to be able to defend herself in order to make that peace a reality. Adams was skewered in the press as a war monger. Yet it was this navy that influenced the French to back off and even helped convince Napoleon to sell Louisiana to us. For this reason, and for his time drafting our Navy's laws (which I won't devote any time to), Adam's is known as the Grandfather of the American Navy. But the lesson is that Adams himself gave all of us the wisdom and tools to live forever free.


As for my numbers on slaves & Natives - I was going by memory. As I recalled it was estimated that there were between 300,000 and 600,000 Native Americans living in America's present borders when we ratified the Constitution. And that there were an estimated 300,000 slaves in the states in the 1770s. It makes sense that there wouldn't be many slaves in the colonies at that time, because a small yet significant number went over to the British hoping for their freedom (who wouldn't?), and there was an embargo going on, so new slaves couldn't be imported. Furthermore, any resources normally spent in the slave trade would have been put toward the war effort. I read this number in a book somewhere, though I can't remember which or when. Six and three would still keep us just under a million, but I checked wiki and I cannot find slave numbers for the 1770s. I don't think it's something to quibble over, and it's beside the point. Even when Adams was president America was only East of the Mississippi, but did not even include Florida. He wasn't the president of massive territory and didn't have the power to end slavery.
I don't believe that it is fair to blame Adams for not freeing the slaves while he was in Europe or after he returned, because he didn't have the authority or power. He never owned a slave and he was outspoken against it. The only time he could have done anything to stop slavery was when he was a Congressman in the 1770s, and that's why I was using those dates. But at that time the States were still independent.
Anecdote-ally though, Thomas Jefferson gave Adams a copy of his book Notes on the State of Virginia. Adams read the entire book out loud to his wife and daughter Nabby. I've always wondered what Adam's and his family thought while reading Jefferson's explanation that Negros smell terribly because they excrete part of their body's waste through their pores and that Jefferson "could only speculate" that white's were indeed the superior race. You know that they did not believe such nonsense, but how would they have felt hearing such careless words from such a beloved family friend? Whatever the case, we do know from personal correspondences that Abigail really let Jefferson have it when the sex scandal between Jefferson and his slave broke, and that Adam's too, believed it and was greatly disappointed, though he wasn't talking to Jefferson about it.

Also, it probably just slipped your mind, but disease was the number one killer of Native Americans. This has to be especially true up until the migration west. Louis and Clarke wrote that even sick tribes were still warring with each other, even as everyone was dying or bedridden. Tribal politics were intense and confusing.



*Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America & he also wrote Thoughts on Government which influenced every state Constitution.

**Adam's was not a sexist and said many times over that his wife was his equal and that she would have made as good of a politician as anyone he ever knew. Indeed he meant it; she was his political adviser.

*** Well before the US Constitution was ratified


Juan I fully accept that it was impossible for Adams to abolish slavery during his presidency,it was a totally different age. My only point was,and is,that however enlightened he was for the times,he did not preserve the freedom of a significant number of Americans, because nobody could.It's also true that disease and inter tribal war was a major killer of Native Americans,but surely you would concede a lot of this disease was introduced to the Americas by the invading Europeans,and was particularly virulent because the indigineous population had little or no resistance.Whether they intended to do this is irrelevant,it was certainly highly useful in decimating any resistance.
Please understand I am not saying what happened in your country was worse than what happened in colonial Africa or Australia,or in most of the world,my own country Britain has a truly shameful and indefensible record.I just don't believe in 'golden ages',anywhere or anytime,and it rankles with me to see people employ cheap appeals to patriotism to glorify a past that was largely barbaric and cruel,in order to score modern day political points.
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby chang50 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:08 am

Phatscotty wrote:
chang50 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:"You will never know how much it cost us to preserve your freedom. I hope that you will make a good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that I ever took half the pains to preserve it."



Another golden age that only exists in fertile imaginations,Adams did nothing to preserve the freedom of millions of slaves and native Americans..



Juan_Bottom wrote:That's not true,
and if you added together all of the slaves and Native Americans in our country during Adams time it wouldn't have been anywhere near a million. Even using America's current borders you still wouldn't hit a million.


I agree with Juan. Say what you want about him, he is knowledgeable.

It's not true for other reasons also. John Adams was strongly against slavery, and so was his wife Abigal, and in fact his oldest son, John Quincy Adams, was an abolitionist mentor to none-other than Abraham Lincoln. At this point you google dictionary "abolitionist" and "posterity"

Just a word from experience to you Chang: You carry a lot of weight in homosexual discussions, but hear me when I say, ignorant shit like this will follow you from here to there, even though they have nothing to do with each other.

Oh wait, Conservatives don't go that low. Nevermind...

And as for your ignorant slavery comments, my country abolished slavery within it's first born generation.


What happened to not responding to foreigners??Guess you just can't help it..next step is to make your responses coherent,intelligible and relevant.I'm up for it..
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:13 am

Juan is made in the USA.

Oh shit! I responded again! Maybe I do respect you?!
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby chang50 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:20 am

Phatscotty wrote:Juan is made in the USA.

Oh shit! I responded again! Maybe I do respect you?!


Better than running away,no???
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:23 am

chang50 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Juan is made in the USA.

Oh shit! I responded again! Maybe I do respect you?!


Better than running away,no???


much better
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:38 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:All of that was from memory btw, but I did have to check some of the dates.

ah, but Jaun.. no one understands FREEDOM better than Phattscotty, don't ya know.. its all about guns and telling other people to live like he wants!!!
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:08 am

chang50 wrote:Juan I fully accept that it was impossible for Adams to abolish slavery during his presidency,it was a totally different age.


I don't think it was that different, when we are speaking about racism endorsed by our government today. Institutional and integrated racism actually came into it's own after the Revolutionary War. So Racism spread further and faster after Adams' time. Which even sounds weird as I type it.... but! Many blacks came to America as indentured servants, and the Southern plantation practice of owning hundreds of thousands of people cropped up around the desire for cheap skilled labor that wouldn't leave after 4 years. That damned four year mark would be right around the time a worker would start to gain some value. But after the War America still happily (sometimes desperately) made trade agreements with black/Arabian nations. We even helped out in a little slave revolt in the Caribbean... A racist country hell-bent on social Darwinism or race subjugation would not help a group of black slaves fight for their freedom as well. I would venture to guess that if not for the Southern States, slavery might not have been a question for any of the Congresses.


chang50 wrote:My only point was,and is,that however enlightened he was for the times,he did not preserve the freedom of a significant number of Americans, because nobody could.

Well what you said was that he did nothing to preserve their freedom, and that's why I took exception. Because it's not even close to true and John Adams was awesome.

chang50 wrote:It's also true that disease and inter tribal war was a major killer of Native Americans,but surely you would concede a lot of this disease was introduced to the Americas by the invading Europeans,and was particularly virulent because the indigineous population had little or no resistance.Whether they intended to do this is irrelevant,it was certainly highly useful in decimating any resistance.

I was just saying that it was these accidental diseases that killed of the majority of these Native Americans, the pogrom of meticulous categorizing and genocide didn't start until the western migration. Had there been 1 million Native Americans instead of 600,000, then there would have been 1 million slaughtered. I don't doubt that. As a point however, as POTUS John Adams actually worked to improve peaceful relations between Americans and Native Americans. The Louisiana Purchase was made by our third president, Thomas Jefferson, and it was then that the rush West began in earnest. That purchase literally wouldn't have happened if our second president, Adams, hadn't built a Navy, but he had no hand in Genocide. In fact Adams shrwedly worked to shrink our standing American Army.


Phatscotty wrote:another clip I think you would enjoy. Franklin's response to Adams after he told France to gfy.

Basically Franklin's philosophy of ambassadorship is "never ask for anything and be gracious even as when nothing is offered." Adams had a different approach, because he believed in the reason he was sent there. To get help. So he rustled jimmies and he did something Franklin would never do - he actually asked for more assistance.
It was because of this that Franklin actually worked secretly to get rid of Adams, possibly with support from the Comte de Vergennes. And of course the Comte de Vergennes wanted Adams gone too, because he found Franklin to be delightfully controllable. Another thing Franklin haplessly did to help the French and English; he unwittingly surrounded himself with their spys. And that made him even easier to control. But Franklin wrote his secret letters to Congress asking fro Adams' removal, and the Comte set political traps. In the end, it worked out better for America when they finally forced Adams out of France. Acting entirely on his own, he traveled to the Netherlands and there he succeeded in getting the type of support we really needed - money.
When Adams angrily ignored Congress' orders about who could approve the peace treaty, that was one blessedly rare time when Franklin supported Adams. The Comte de Vergennes was privately very pleased by Adams decision, but he still tried hard to stop him. The Comte was a French Monarchist who did such things for his king.

Phatscotty wrote:I love John Adams! still working on his autobiography and looking forward to the one DoomYoshi recco'd. JB how or why is it you happen to know so much about all this?

I am actually just as surprised as you are. I didn't know that I knew this much either.

Once, in England, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams decided to take a long tour of English country gardens together. It was a long trip that lasted for a few days, and was the only long period of time that they spent together. While on this tour, they visited a couple of battle sites from the English Civil War. At the final site, where the Parliamentarians won their victory against the King's men, Adam's stopped some local Englishmen to ask them some questions about the battle field. But when Adams asked these men they didn't know anything about the battle!
Adams was deeply moved (as you would expect)... Adams chastised them: 'Do Englishmen so soon forget the grounds on which liberty was fought for!? Run and tell your children that this is holy ground! All of England should pilgrimage here!'
That's an approximate quote, but my point is this: America has sacred grounds, but far above that, we have sacred ideals. And like Adams, I will remember them. We were born into them, we accept them, and we ascend. I think that's why I remember so much about this time period and them men who defined it. Because they were that important that they must never be forgotten. They did some amazing sh*t and it was awesome.
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby chang50 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:10 am

chang50 wrote:My only point was,and is,that however enlightened he was for the times,he did not preserve the freedom of a significant number of Americans, because nobody could.

Well what you said was that he did nothing to preserve their freedom, and that's why I took exception. Because it's not even close to true and John Adams was awesome.

I was talking about slaves as a group not individual slaves,perhaps I should have made this clearer.I still think it's definitionally impossible to preserve the freedom of a slave, as long as they remain a slave,so a significant number of Americans were excluded from his fine words..



Once, in England, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams decided to take a long tour of English country gardens together. It was a long trip that lasted for a few days, and was the only long period of time that they spent together. While on this tour, they visited a couple of battle sites from the English Civil War. At the final site, where the Parliamentarians won their victory against the King's men, Adam's stopped some local Englishmen to ask them some questions about the battle field. But when Adams asked these men they didn't know anything about the battle!
Adams was deeply moved (as you would expect)... Adams chastised them: 'Do Englishmen so soon forget the grounds on which liberty was fought for!? Run and tell your children that this is holy ground! All of England should pilgrimage here!'
That's an approximate quote, but my point is this: America has sacred grounds, but far above that, we have sacred ideals. And like Adams, I will remember them. We were born into them, we accept them, and we ascend. I think that's why I remember so much about this time period and them men who defined it. Because they were that important that they must never be forgotten. They did some amazing sh*t and it was awesome.[/quote]

At the risk of over-generalising perhaps you have hit on an important difference between Americans and Europeans,maybe,at least from my perspective you would be better to accept less and question more your 'sacred ideals',in fact this devotion sounds almost religious.Just an opinion...
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:50 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:
chang50 wrote:Juan I fully accept that it was impossible for Adams to abolish slavery during his presidency,it was a totally different age.


I don't think it was that different, when we are speaking about racism endorsed by our government today. Institutional and integrated racism actually came into it's own after the Revolutionary War. So Racism spread further and faster after Adams' time. Which even sounds weird as I type it.... but! Many blacks came to America as indentured servants, and the Southern plantation practice of owning hundreds of thousands of people cropped up around the desire for cheap skilled labor that wouldn't leave after 4 years. That damned four year mark would be right around the time a worker would start to gain some value. But after the War America still happily (sometimes desperately) made trade agreements with black/Arabian nations. We even helped out in a little slave revolt in the Caribbean... A racist country hell-bent on social Darwinism or race subjugation would not help a group of black slaves fight for their freedom as well. I would venture to guess that if not for the Southern States, slavery might not have been a question for any of the Congresses.


Interesting. I would want to add that there was also another, just as much real and important perspective.

To the English, to King George, there were 26 colonies, not 13. The 26 colonies extended all the way down to Venezuelan waters, and the Queen of England's face is still on their money to this day.

In the Northern 13, slavery was in many cases abolished in their state Constitutions, during the times of the Articles of Confederation, and I think Massachusetts even before that. That is to say before the Constitution, but definitely post-Declaration.

Anyways, the Southern 13 colonies (Carribean all the way to Antigua) slavery was institutionalized under the direct authority of King George and England (even as many want to credit England for abolishing slavery the soonest, or something). That resulted in trade wars similar to the tensions today between the USA and China, but over the age-old problem of how to compete against slave labor. Sadly, still to this day, the answer seems to be, as it was then, to lower the standards, pay, of the competitors. The only way to compete in tobacco and cotton and rum was to run a slave plantation, and given that slavery had already existed for generations and even centuries in some cases on French, English, and Spanish plantations on their colonies in the 1500's and 1600's, so that was the world pre-Americans were born into, and I don't care what is happening on the planet, whatever is going on when you are born and raised as a child, that is seen as "normal" because there is no way to know otherwise....

That's why I have so much respect for the road the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution paved. And why I also take issue with Chang stating "he did nothing for freedom...." I would love to just be able to say "dude, you don't have any idea" and call some names, but I never fault anyone when there is room to learn and help learn on all sides
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby chang50 on Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:59 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:
chang50 wrote:Juan I fully accept that it was impossible for Adams to abolish slavery during his presidency,it was a totally different age.


I don't think it was that different, when we are speaking about racism endorsed by our government today. Institutional and integrated racism actually came into it's own after the Revolutionary War. So Racism spread further and faster after Adams' time. Which even sounds weird as I type it.... but! Many blacks came to America as indentured servants, and the Southern plantation practice of owning hundreds of thousands of people cropped up around the desire for cheap skilled labor that wouldn't leave after 4 years. That damned four year mark would be right around the time a worker would start to gain some value. But after the War America still happily (sometimes desperately) made trade agreements with black/Arabian nations. We even helped out in a little slave revolt in the Caribbean... A racist country hell-bent on social Darwinism or race subjugation would not help a group of black slaves fight for their freedom as well. I would venture to guess that if not for the Southern States, slavery might not have been a question for any of the Congresses.


Interesting. I would want to add that there was also another, just as much real and important perspective.

To the English, to King George, there were 26 colonies, not 13. The 26 colonies extended all the way down to Venezuelan waters, and the Queen of England's face is still on their money to this day.

In the Northern 13, slavery was in many cases abolished in their state Constitutions, during the times of the Articles of Confederation, and I think Massachusetts even before that. That is to say before the Constitution, but definitely post-Declaration.

Anyways, the Southern 13 colonies (Carribean all the way to Antigua) slavery was institutionalized under the direct authority of King George and England (even as many want to credit England for abolishing slavery the soonest, or something). That resulted in trade wars similar to the tensions today between the USA and China, but over the age-old problem of how to compete against slave labor. Sadly, still to this day, the answer seems to be, as it was then, to lower the standards, pay, of the competitors. The only way to compete in tobacco and cotton and rum was to run a slave plantation, and given that slavery had already existed for generations and even centuries in some cases on French, English, and Spanish plantations on their colonies in the 1500's and 1600's, so that was the world pre-Americans were born into, and I don't care what is happening on the planet, whatever is going on when you are born and raised as a child, that is seen as "normal" because there is no way to know otherwise....

That's why I have so much respect for the road the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution paved. And why I also take issue with Chang stating "he did nothing for freedom...." I would love to just be able to say "dude, you don't have any idea" and call some names, but I never fault anyone when there is room to learn and help learn on all sides


But Chang never said that,go back and check my first post and if you can find those words I will apologise for my error.Now will you please explain to me what he did to preserve the freedom of the slaves in the US that he was unable to free personally and who remained slaves?Try as I might I just can't see how anyone can preserve the freedom of a slave who remains a slave.Thus I think it is fair to say Adams did not preserve the freedom of a significant number of Americans,which was my point all along.Can you refute this without resorting to strawmen arguments?
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby Juan_Bottom on Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:25 am

chang50 wrote:At the risk of over-generalising perhaps you have hit on an important difference between Americans and Europeans,maybe,at least from my perspective you would be better to accept less and question more your 'sacred ideals',in fact this devotion sounds almost religious.Just an opinion...


Which sacred ideals should I question? Freedom of Religion? Freedom of Speech? Of Movement? Surely even Europeans have sacred ideals, for every ideal that Adams espoused as American, came, at some point in history, from Europe. Even the Right to Bear Arms came from mother England, though she had banned the practice for some by then. That's the most controversial "right," well at least today it is, and I'll grant anyone that. And I've been very outspoken against it. But in Adam's time the only thing controversial about it was when the King took that right away from his subjects. Other ideals, like our Freedom of Speech, were only questioned by Europeans... which is sad because that high ideal came from old Greece.
My point is only that our sacred ideals were once your sacred ideals.

Phatscotty wrote: The only way to compete in tobacco and cotton and rum was to run a slave plantation, and given that slavery had already existed for generations and even centuries in some cases on French, English, and Spanish plantations on their colonies in the 1500's and 1600's, so that was the world pre-Americans were born into, and I don't care what is happening on the planet, whatever is going on when you are born and raised as a child, that is seen as "normal" because there is no way to know otherwise....

This is how Jefferson explained it in his Notes on the State of Virginia. He said that the child of the slave and the child of the master will grow up watching their fathers, and they will just follow their father's examples until you have the next slave and the next master.

chang50 wrote:Now will you please explain to me what he did to preserve the freedom of the slaves in the US that he was unable to free personally and who remained slaves?

You're pulling so far away from the argument when you say that he did nothing for the people he could do nothing for. What's the point of even saying that? I might as well say that you do nothing to help the Vietnamese Sex Slaves that exist all over southeast Asia. And would it be fair to accuse you of not helping them?
Adams did do everything that could be expected of a man to free the slaves in his own state. In the 1700s the states still considered themselves independent from each other. One of the few times that Thomas Jefferson ever spoke in Congress (as a Congressmen he only spoke twice, I think) was to argue that Virginia state's lawful boundary extended so far out into the Atlantic (I don't remember how far exactly, and it's not important), and that other state's shouldn't be allowed to fish out there without permission. The argument didn't go anywhere in Congress, and the states eventually did get pulled together by the Federal Government. But it wasn't until well after the Revolutionary war, and it happened in baby steps, beginning with the Federal government's assumption of each state's individual war debts. But I bring up Jefferson's argument to illustrate just how independent our United States really were.
After serving as a Massachusetts Congressman, Adams wrote the Massachusetts Constitution that declared all men were born free and equal. He was also a member of the Congressional Committee that wrote the Declaration of Independence that also declared all men were created equal. When you compare the phrasing of the two Constitutions you can see that Adam's wording was much stronger, and the reasoning for that is obvious. But then Adams moved to France as an Ambassador, and upon his return to America he was voted into office as the Vice President. He served two terms as the VP then one term as the President. There was never any part of his career where he was a dictator or had the authority to end slavery, even in his own state. But he did work with others to end slavery in Massachusetts.
Adams never once owned a slave, though he could easily afford them AND he was a lifelong farmer --- After the election of Thomas Jefferson as president, Adams said that for the rest of his life he only wanted to be known as "farmer Adams." And he meant it, because he only rarely left his farm after that. And furthermore he did personally free the slaves that were given to him. So it's not fair to blame him for not personally ending slavery in another country, which is how Georgia would have been seen in 1776, when he's ending slavery in his own country of Massachusetts. Abigail and John Adams both separately wrote about their one visit to Virginia as if it were another country. You just picked on the one founding father who did do something with the goal in mind of ending slavery for everybody.
Well, ok that's not true because others did too, but Adams played the biggest role.
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby chang50 on Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:35 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:
chang50 wrote:At the risk of over-generalising perhaps you have hit on an important difference between Americans and Europeans,maybe,at least from my perspective you would be better to accept less and question more your 'sacred ideals',in fact this devotion sounds almost religious.Just an opinion...


Which sacred ideals should I question? Freedom of Religion? Freedom of Speech? Of Movement? Surely even Europeans have sacred ideals, for every ideal that Adams espoused as American, came, at some point in history, from Europe. Even the Right to Bear Arms came from mother England, though she had banned the practice for some by then. That's the most controversial "right," well at least today it is, and I'll grant anyone that. And I've been very outspoken against it. But in Adam's time the only thing controversial about it was when the King took that right away from his subjects. Other ideals, like our Freedom of Speech, were only questioned by Europeans... which is sad because that high ideal came from old Greece.
My point is only that our sacred ideals were once your sacred ideals.

And my only point is that no ideals should be so sacred that they go totally unquestioned,nothing more,I'm not suggesting they should neccessarily be abandoned..



chang50 wrote:Now will you please explain to me what he did to preserve the freedom of the slaves in the US that he was unable to free personally and who remained slaves?

You're pulling so far away from the argument when you say that he did nothing for the people he could do nothing for. What's the point of even saying that? I might as well say that you do nothing to help the Vietnamese Sex Slaves that exist all over southeast Asia. And would it be fair to accuse you of not helping them?
Adams did do everything that could be expected of a man to free the slaves in his own state. In the 1700s the states still considered themselves independent from each other. One of the few times that Thomas Jefferson ever spoke in Congress (as a Congressmen he only spoke twice, I think) was to argue that Virginia state's lawful boundary extended so far out into the Atlantic (I don't remember how far exactly, and it's not important), and that other state's shouldn't be allowed to fish out there without permission. The argument didn't go anywhere in Congress, and the states eventually did get pulled together by the Federal Government. But it wasn't until well after the Revolutionary war, and it happened in baby steps, beginning with the Federal government's assumption of each state's individual war debts. But I bring up Jefferson's argument to illustrate just how independent our United States really were.
After serving as a Massachusetts Congressman, Adams wrote the Massachusetts Constitution that declared all men were born free and equal. He was also a member of the Congressional Committee that wrote the Declaration of Independence that also declared all men were created equal. When you compare the phrasing of the two Constitutions you can see that Adam's wording was much stronger, and the reasoning for that is obvious. But then Adams moved to France as an Ambassador, and upon his return to America he was voted into office as the Vice President. He served two terms as the VP then one term as the President. There was never any part of his career where he was a dictator or had the authority to end slavery, even in his own state. But he did work with others to end slavery in Massachusetts.
Adams never once owned a slave, though he could easily afford them AND he was a lifelong farmer --- After the election of Thomas Jefferson as president, Adams said that for the rest of his life he only wanted to be known as "farmer Adams." And he meant it, because he only rarely left his farm after that. And furthermore he did personally free the slaves that were given to him. So it's not fair to blame him for not personally ending slavery in another country, which is how Georgia would have been seen in 1776, when he's ending slavery in his own country of Massachusetts. Abigail and John Adams both separately wrote about their one visit to Virginia as if it were another country. You just picked on the one founding father who did do something with the goal in mind of ending slavery for everybody.
Well, ok that's not true because others did too, but Adams played the biggest role.


So which argument am I pulling away from,not one I advanced for sure? It's obvious when Adams,who I admire as well btw,was talking about preserving freedom he was excluding some Americans,because through NO FAILURE OF HIS,lots of Americans had no freedom in his lifetime,being slaves.Seems a simple and innocuous point to make.Not once have I remotely blamed him or said he did nothing to help slaves,if you had read what I said carefully,you would not be raising strawmen about Vietnamese sex-slaves.Seems like your admiration of the man has clouded your judgement somewhat..
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby Juan_Bottom on Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:12 pm

chang50 wrote:Another golden age that only exists in fertile imaginations,Adams did nothing to preserve the freedom of millions of slaves and native Americans..


chang50 wrote:So which argument am I pulling away from,not one I advanced for sure? It's obvious when Adams,who I admire as well btw,was talking about preserving freedom he was excluding some Americans,because through NO FAILURE OF HIS,lots of Americans had no freedom in his lifetime,being slaves.Seems a simple and innocuous point to make.Not once have I remotely blamed him or said he did nothing to help slaves,if you had read what I said carefully,you would not be raising strawmen about Vietnamese sex-slaves.Seems like your admiration of the man has clouded your judgement somewhat..


Then you're just being dumb. Adams penned the very words that were used legally to end slavery in Massachusetts, and he was married to an abolitionist. He responded to several abolitionists letters during his presidency and he stated that he wanted to see the gradual end of slavery in America. Why gradual? Because he wanted a peaceful end. He never made a public statement about slavery before his election, no, and he never would have been elected president if he had. But he did write about it, and he did support the cause of freedom for everyone. Numerous founding fathers did join anti-slavery abolitionist groups, Benjamin Franklin and John Jay are two of the better known, but because of this they got no support from Southerners.
I re-iterate that someone from the Carolina's or Georgia would see themselves as a Carolinian, or Georgian before they saw themselves as an American. These were not the same united country. My straw-man argument was your argument.
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby NoSurvivors on Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:19 pm

I never take the time to read most of these threads, because the posts are so dang long, but hey, I am glad you guys seem to be havin fun in the politics forum :D
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Re: Oh Posterity!

Postby chang50 on Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:39 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:
chang50 wrote:Another golden age that only exists in fertile imaginations,Adams did nothing to preserve the freedom of millions of slaves and native Americans..


chang50 wrote:So which argument am I pulling away from,not one I advanced for sure? It's obvious when Adams,who I admire as well btw,was talking about preserving freedom he was excluding some Americans,because through NO FAILURE OF HIS,lots of Americans had no freedom in his lifetime,being slaves.Seems a simple and innocuous point to make.Not once have I remotely blamed him or said he did nothing to help slaves,if you had read what I said carefully,you would not be raising strawmen about Vietnamese sex-slaves.Seems like your admiration of the man has clouded your judgement somewhat..


Then you're just being dumb. Adams penned the very words that were used legally to end slavery in Massachusetts, and he was married to an abolitionist. He responded to several abolitionists letters during his presidency and he stated that he wanted to see the gradual end of slavery in America. Why gradual? Because he wanted a peaceful end. He never made a public statement about slavery before his election, no, and he never would have been elected president if he had. But he did write about it, and he did support the cause of freedom for everyone. Numerous founding fathers did join anti-slavery abolitionist groups, Benjamin Franklin and John Jay are two of the better known, but because of this they got no support from Southerners.
I re-iterate that someone from the Carolina's or Georgia would see themselves as a Carolinian, or Georgian before they saw themselves as an American. These were not the same united country. My straw-man argument was your argument.


Ok I'll give you the last word if you want it.My parting shot is only to doubtless commit heresy for many of your countrymen and humbly suggest the USA's blind,dogmatic reverence for its founding fathers/constitution/version of freedom,does not always serve the country well in the nuanced,modern world.Call me dumb if you please but that is my opinion..
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