Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby crispybits on Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:42 am

What would you rather the thread title was Funky T?
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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby daddy1gringo on Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:28 am

I think FT is referring to the claim that he is saying that it is gay marriage, and not the proposed legal action, that is undemocratic.

As I have said before, nobody is advocating laws that would prevent anyone from marrying whom they like. That is, to "love" whom they like, live with whom they like, sleep with whom they like, and to go to one of the many clergy who will perform the ceremony. All that people are saying is that there will be negative consequences from the government officially declaring that legally equal to traditional marriage.

You can, as always happens, go on to say that that is still unjust, and we could debate that point, but it is not the same thing and it is disingenuous to go on speaking as if it is.

Now in what I just said, I am speaking about the United States, but I believe it also applies to the UK, despite the different relationship between the church and the secular government.
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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby crispybits on Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:35 am

Couple of absolutely genuine questions from that post:

daddy1gringo wrote:All that people are saying is that there will be negative consequences from the government officially declaring that legally equal to traditional marriage.

You can, as always happens, go on to say that that is still unjust, and we could debate that point, but it is not the same thing and it is disingenuous to go on speaking as if it is.


What negative consequences will there be from making homosexual marriage legally equal to heterosexual marriage?

Why is homosexual marriage not the same thing as heterosexual marriage?

Edit - our government is less secular than yours - bishops of the church of england get seats in one of our parliament houses (house of lords) purely because they are bishops
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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby daddy1gringo on Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:54 am

crispybits wrote:Couple of absolutely genuine questions from that post:

daddy1gringo wrote:All that people are saying is that there will be negative consequences from the government officially declaring that legally equal to traditional marriage.

You can, as always happens, go on to say that that is still unjust, and we could debate that point, but it is not the same thing and it is disingenuous to go on speaking as if it is.


What negative consequences will there be from making homosexual marriage legally equal to heterosexual marriage?

Why is homosexual marriage not the same thing as heterosexual marriage?
I could legitimately get out of answering by saying, "you'd have to ask the archbishop who made the staement." Technically, I wasn't taking that position, but only pointing out a problem with the way the debate was framed up to this point (and usually is). However, although that would be true and legitimate, it would be a wussy thing to do.

Give me some time to get back to you with an answer worthy of absolutely genuine questions; this is a complex and sensitive subject.
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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby MeDeFe on Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:42 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Is the Queen the head of the Church of England?

Yes, but the C of E and the catholic church are different sects of christianity.
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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:48 pm

ITT: Phatscotty, who routinely tells Symmetry that he doesn't understand how America works because he is from the UK, tells Symmetry that he doesn't understand how England works either.
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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:49 pm

daddy1gringo wrote:
...a problem with the way the debate was framed up to this point (and usually is).


Yes, this.
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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:05 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Is the Queen the head of the Church of England?

Yes, ostentiably.
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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby jonesthecurl on Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:06 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:ITT: Phatscotty, who routinely tells Symmetry that he doesn't understand how America works because he is from the UK, tells Symmetry that he doesn't understand how England works either.


Do correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't England swing like a pendulum do?
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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby crispybits on Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:31 pm

If you means wing in a sexual sense, then I think we're one of the most self-suppressed nations in the developed world. Most of Europe has far more relaxed and comfortable relationships with sex than the brits do. We've still got a little bit of the Victorian era in our psyche. That said there are also plenty who have learned to ignore that bit of our identity too :)
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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby jonesthecurl on Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:35 pm

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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby stahrgazer on Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:31 pm

crispybits wrote:What negative consequences will there be from making homosexual marriage legally equal to heterosexual marriage?
Why is homosexual marriage not the same thing as heterosexual marriage?


Hey, while you're asking, why isn't poly-marriage legal? If it's okay for a man to marry a man, and a woman to marry a woman, why isn't okay for a couple of one sex to marry one of the other, as long as they all agree?
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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby jonesthecurl on Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:01 pm

Westminster Abbey, the tower of Big Ben.
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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:03 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:ITT: Phatscotty, who routinely tells Symmetry that he doesn't understand how America works because he is from the UK, tells Symmetry that he doesn't understand how England works either.


Clearly, I have been asking him. I stated nothing

see how ya are?

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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby crispybits on Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:38 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
crispybits wrote:What negative consequences will there be from making homosexual marriage legally equal to heterosexual marriage?
Why is homosexual marriage not the same thing as heterosexual marriage?


Hey, while you're asking, why isn't poly-marriage legal? If it's okay for a man to marry a man, and a woman to marry a woman, why isn't okay for a couple of one sex to marry one of the other, as long as they all agree?


Personally I'd let anyone marrry anyone, so long as they are an adult, consenting, and informed of all other marriage contracts their spouse currently has active. If they are fine with that, then who am I to say they can't. There would need to be some rewriting of some laws, particularly tax laws so that marriage is not simply used as a way to get extra allowances, but that extra work shouldn't be allowed to be a barrier to a fair legal system which treats people of all genders, disabilities, ages, sexualities and races equally.

The below refers to US law rather than UK law but it's relevant just the same (just substitute the word "legal" in there instead of "constitutional"):

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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby spurgistan on Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:52 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
crispybits wrote:What negative consequences will there be from making homosexual marriage legally equal to heterosexual marriage?
Why is homosexual marriage not the same thing as heterosexual marriage?


Hey, while you're asking, why isn't poly-marriage legal? If it's okay for a man to marry a man, and a woman to marry a woman, why isn't okay for a couple of one sex to marry one of the other, as long as they all agree?


No reason. In terms of political economics, it's probably because of the relatively small number of people who want to enter into group marriages. Also, probably because we first need to convince a lot of people that it's ok for a dude to enter into a marriage with one dudes, or at least wait for those opposed to die off. But there's no ethical reason why we should expand the definition of marriage to include dudes marrying dudes but hold the line at dudes marrying dudes and ladies (in much the same way there's no real ethical reason to allow dudes to marry ladies but not allow them to marry dudes), and most people who've accepted gay marriage also accept poly, by my rough polling.
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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:04 pm

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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby Woodruff on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:39 am

Symmetry wrote:
crispybits wrote:Technically the Queen is still sovereign ruler, but all the power is with parliament and she's no more than a figurehead. The queens speech (well, the policy element) gets written for her by the government and she just adds in the personal and family elements (or her speechwriter does)

I think that's much the same in the church of england. Technically she's the top bod, but I don't think she ever exercises that power to actually do anything.

The royal family are in such a precarious political and economic position, and so reliant on public good will to stay on their gravy train, that they really don't have the power to make even the smallest of waves unless theyre supporting an extremely populist view (and supporting an extremely populist view isn't going to make too many waves anwyays)

But as Symmetry just pointed out she has no authority over the catholic religion


To be fair, I'm pretty sure she could take him in a knife fight.


After which, Phatscotty would claim it's a clear indication that gun proliferation is necessary in order to stop these knife-wielding thugs.
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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby crispybits on Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:28 am

spurgistan wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
crispybits wrote:What negative consequences will there be from making homosexual marriage legally equal to heterosexual marriage?
Why is homosexual marriage not the same thing as heterosexual marriage?


Hey, while you're asking, why isn't poly-marriage legal? If it's okay for a man to marry a man, and a woman to marry a woman, why isn't okay for a couple of one sex to marry one of the other, as long as they all agree?


No reason. In terms of political economics, it's probably because of the relatively small number of people who want to enter into group marriages. Also, probably because we first need to convince a lot of people that it's ok for a dude to enter into a marriage with one dudes, or at least wait for those opposed to die off. But there's no ethical reason why we should expand the definition of marriage to include dudes marrying dudes but hold the line at dudes marrying dudes and ladies (in much the same way there's no real ethical reason to allow dudes to marry ladies but not allow them to marry dudes), and most people who've accepted gay marriage also accept poly, by my rough polling.


+1 to that 100%, but the point you and a lot of the objectors are missing is that this isn't an ethical argument. it's a legal one. As such it's not interested in right and wrong or godly and ungodly or moral and immoral, but simply fair and unfair.

The law change being brought in is fully democratic because it is a necessary change to comply with other laws, other laws that were democratically passed. We have gender and sexuality equality laws in the UK, and denying a large minority access to state endowed rights bestowed to married couples based solely on their gender or sexuality breaks those laws. The bishop, I suspect, never objected to those laws about everyone being free from discrimination based on gender or sexuality, he is coming into the argument far too late, with points that don't actually address the legal argument sufficiently (consultation and green papers are not legally necessary before a law is passed, especially if it's a change to an older law to bring it out of direct conflict with newer laws).

That's not to say there isn't a moral argument being put forward by both sides, simply that this moral argument is totally irrelevant. And while it might be fun to highlight the hypocrisy inherent in many of the moral anti arguments, it's a distraction from the fact the legal argument has already been won for several years now, and what we're going through in the UK isn't bringing in brand new laws or rights or whatever, but simply cleaning up the statute books to ensure that the law is fully compliant with itself.
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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby gordon1975 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:00 pm

mybe the catholic church should put more effort in to stopping child abuse,in there own ranks,before they tell the rest or us whats moral in the world
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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:32 pm

gordon1975 wrote:Blah blah bandwagon comment blah blah blah
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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby gordon1975 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:42 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
gordon1975 wrote:Blah blah bandwagon comment blah blah blah


another blind catholic by any chance?my boys not going to your play groups
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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby crispybits on Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:43 pm

I wouldn't be surprised Gordon.

I love the way a lot of catholics are now trying to "break" the stereotype of catholic priests as padeophiles and child abusers. Nobody is seriously saying that all catholic priests are padeophiles or child abusers, but the stereotype only exists because the catholic church has a real and documented problem with this and has repeatedly covered it up rather than address the issue. It wouldn't exist at all if there had never been widespread abuse, and using the "you're just stereotyping" kinda defence is frankly highly offensive because it denies the problem exists. Much better would be to admit to past sins and actually take action to prevent them from ever happening again, but that seems to be beyond a large portion of them.

I saw a youtube video ages ago where someone much more effectively demonstrates the above argument but I can't find it now because I don't remember the primary subject matter being discussed.
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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:49 pm

I'm not Catholic you morons, lol. I just don't like hearing the same unoriginal crap every time I turn around. Just stop trying to fit in with your peers for two seconds and you might be able to see the issue from more than one angle.
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Re: Catholic Archbishop attacks gay marriage as undemocratic

Postby jonesthecurl on Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:14 pm

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