Questions for Evolutionists

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Questions for Evolutionists

Postby premio53 on Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:55 pm

I have never been to this forum before. I just happened to stumble on it and noticed a couple of threads concerning God, evolution etc. Here is a list of questions for someone who considers himself an athiest or agnostic. Faith in evolution is as much a "religion" as judaism, Hinduism or any other system.

1. Where did the space for the universe come from?

2. Where did matter come from?

3. Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)?

4. How did matter get so perfectly organized?

5. Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing?

6. When, where, why, and how did life come from dead matter?

7. When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?

8. With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?

9. Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to survive, or the species? How do you explain this?)

10. How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books.)

11. Is it possible that similarities in design between different animals prove a common Creator instead of a common ancestor?

12. Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occurred if evolution were true?

13. When, where, why, and how did: a) Single-celled plants become multicelled? (Where are the two- and threecelled intermediates?) b) Single-celled animals evolve? c) Fish change to amphibians? d) Amphibians change to reptiles? e) Reptiles change to birds? (The lungs, bones, eyes, reproductive organs, heart, method of locomotion, body covering, etc., are all very different!) How did the intermediate forms live?

14. When, where, why, how, and from what did: a) Whales evolve? b) Sea horses evolve? c) Bats evolve? d) Eyes evolve? e) Ears evolve? f) Hair, skin, feathers, scales, nails, claws, etc., evolve?

15. Which evolved first (how, and how long, did it work without the others)? a) The digestive system, the food to be digested, the appetite, the ability to find and eat the food, the digestive juices, or the body’s resistance to its own digestive juice (stomach, intestines, etc.)? b) The drive to reproduce or the ability to reproduce? c) The lungs, the mucus lining to protect them, the throat, or the perfect mixture of gases to be breathed into the lungs? d) DNA or RNA to carry the DNA message to cell parts? e) The termite or the flagella in its intestines that actually digest the cellulose? f) The plants or the insects that live on and pollinate the plants? g) The bones, ligaments, tendons, blood supply, or muscles to move the bones? h) The nervous system, repair system, or hormone system? i) The immune system or the need for it? (Taken from "The Evidence Bible")
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Re: Questions for Evolutionists

Postby JJM on Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:04 pm

Those first few Questions say it all, atheists deny what they deem unreasonable and then they replace it with something even more unreasonable.
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Re: Questions for Evolutionists

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:16 pm

premio53 wrote:I have never been to this forum before. I just happened to stumble on it and noticed a couple of threads concerning God, evolution etc. Here is a list of questions for someone who considers himself an athiest or agnostic. Faith in evolution is as much a "religion" as judaism, Hinduism or any other system.


This statement is the crux of the issue, so the following is relevant:



Various sciences or explanations (e.g. from religion) rely upon different standards of objectivity.

So, "Even a lot of what IS proven is really only conditionally proven." -PLAYER


For example, we have two competing theories for gravity.

(1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitation

(2) Jonesthecurlian Theory of Badger-Gravity

But note the difference between law and theory:
(this is relevant to evolution)

While the law lets us calculate quite a bit about what happens, notice that it does not tell us anything about why it happens. That is what theories are for. In the language of science, the word "theory" is used to describe an explanation of why and how things happen. For gravity, we use Einstein's Theory of General Relativity to explain why things fall.

A theory starts as one or more hypotheses, untested ideas about why something happens. For example, I might propose a hypothesis that the object that you released fell because it was pulled by the Earth's magnetic field. Once we started testing, it would not take long to find out that my hypothesis was not supported by the evidence. Non-magnetic objects fall at the same rate as magnetic objects. Because it was not supported by the evidence, my hypothesis does not gain the status of being a theory. To become a scientific theory, an idea must be thoroughly tested, and must be an accurate and predictive description of the natural world.

While laws rarely change, theories change frequently as new evidence is discovered. Instead of being discarded due to new evidence, theories are often revised to include the new evidence in their explanation. The Theory of General Relativity has adapted as new technologies and new evidence have expanded our view of the universe.

http://thehappyscientist.com/science-ex ... ory-or-law


(1) So, with "conditional proof" (or rather a criteria for objectivity and truth) in mind, which theory of gravity should be discarded? #1 or #2? Why?


(I'd be impressed if the anti-creationists read this post).
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Re: Questions for Evolutionists

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:47 pm

First of all, evolutionist is the wrong term in the title because a lot of your question have nothing to do with evolution.
Try: "Questions for Naturalists" (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy) )

Second of all, if the thread does address naturalists as it seems from the questions, then all the "why" questions are meaningless. Naturalists believe there is no ultimate purpose, stuff just happens.

Third of all:
Faith in evolution is as much a "religion" as judaism, Hinduism or any other system.

What are the testable predictions made by judaism and hinduism ?

Anyway, here's my answers.

1. Where did the space for the universe come from?
I don't know.

2. Where did matter come from?
I don't know.

3. Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)?
I don't know.

4. How did matter get so perfectly organized?
What does that even mean? How is matter perfectly organized?

5. Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing?
See above.

6. When, where, why, and how did life come from dead matter?
When:Best guess: about 3.5 billion
Where: on Earth probably. or maybe on another planet and it hitched a ride on an asteroid to get here.
Why: N/A
How: don't know for sure. Best guess: "dead stuff" randomly moved around for a couple hundred million years until it somewhere a clump of dead stuff was formed that could mesh against other dead stuff and create a copy of itself. At that point we start calling the dead stuff living stuff and evolution takes over.

7. When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?
Reproduction is one of the necessary conditions for something to be considered "life". So this is included in the above.

8. With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?
I don't know. Many possible scenarios are presented here.. I'm not a biologist, but from what I understand one possibility is that a mechanism that allows sexual reproduction actually evolved for repairing the genetic material inside the cell and once this mutation had spread, exchange of genetic material between cells also started. There's many other theories on that page.

9. Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to survive, or the species? How do you explain this?)
The gene has a drive to survive. This explains, among others, the rearing of children, altruism, loyalty and love. see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene-centered_view_of_evolution

10. How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books.)
That's a terrible metaphor, a chinese book is not made of english letters whereas both the old and the new genetic varieties are made of the same stuff. It's more like how can recombining a shitty lego boat lead to an awesome lego car. Btw. we've already done this in the lab: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment

11. Is it possible that similarities in design between different animals prove a common Creator instead of a common ancestor?
Anything is possible. However, I haven't heard any convincing argument in favour of that hypothesis.

12. Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occurred if evolution were true?
Why do you say natural selection tends to keep a species stable? I've never heard such an argument before.
Mutations can duplicate DNA and then modify chunks of the duplication, thus adding complexity. This is well established. see http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB102.html

13. When, where, why, and how did: a) Single-celled plants become multicelled? (Where are the two- and threecelled intermediates?) b) Single-celled animals evolve? c) Fish change to amphibians? d) Amphibians change to reptiles? e) Reptiles change to birds? (The lungs, bones, eyes, reproductive organs, heart, method of locomotion, body covering, etc., are all very different!) How did the intermediate forms live?
I don't know. You can't expect me to answer such a barrage of detailed questions. Try your luck with an evolutionary biologist or, even better, do your own research Here's a starting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils
You might also want to read something like Climbing Mount Improbable

14. When, where, why, how, and from what did: a) Whales evolve? b) Sea horses evolve? c) Bats evolve? d) Eyes evolve? e) Ears evolve? f) Hair, skin, feathers, scales, nails, claws, etc., evolve?
See above. People have dedicated their careers to answering questions like this, if you are interested you can find the answers. For instance, googling "how did whales evolve" gives you this

15. Which evolved first (how, and how long, did it work without the others)? a) The digestive system, the food to be digested, the appetite, the ability to find and eat the food, the digestive juices, or the body’s resistance to its own digestive juice (stomach, intestines, etc.)? b) The drive to reproduce or the ability to reproduce? c) The lungs, the mucus lining to protect them, the throat, or the perfect mixture of gases to be breathed into the lungs? d) DNA or RNA to carry the DNA message to cell parts? e) The termite or the flagella in its intestines that actually digest the cellulose? f) The plants or the insects that live on and pollinate the plants? g) The bones, ligaments, tendons, blood supply, or muscles to move the bones? h) The nervous system, repair system, or hormone system? i) The immune system or the need for it? (Taken from "The Evidence Bible")
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2000-03/953848950.Ev.r.html
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Re: Questions for Evolutionists

Postby crispybits on Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:02 pm

Do we have to have another new thread for this, can't you just join in with viceroy on his, it would save us all a lot of time pointing out the many ways you'e both wrong twice.
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Re: Questions for Evolutionists

Postby Neoteny on Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:04 pm

If we merged the viceroy thread with the Lionz threads with the jay_a2j thread with the Widowmakers thread, we would have one huge, awesome thread. Oh yeah, also the Creepersweiner thread.
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Re: Questions for Evolutionists

Postby Symmetry on Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:55 pm

The Evidence Bible? Seriously? By Franklin Graham, of all people. The guy who predicted that the Japanese Tsunami was the second coming of Christ.
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Re: Questions for Evolutionists

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:15 pm

premio53 wrote:I have never been to this forum before. I just happened to stumble on it and noticed a couple of threads concerning God, evolution etc. Here is a list of questions for someone who considers himself an athiest or agnostic. Faith in evolution is as much a "religion" as judaism, Hinduism or any other system.

1. Where did the space for the universe come from?
This has nothing to do with Evolution, but we don't know.

2. Where did matter come from?
This has nothing to do with Evolution, but we don't know.

3. Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)?
This has nothing to do with Evolution, but the answer is a lot of fun. The answer is "it depends."

4. How did matter get so perfectly organized?
It's not. It's chaos all over the universe.

5. Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing?
The sun?/we don't know.
I'm not sure what the question means. Organizing of RNA or ?


6. When, where, why, and how did life come from dead matter?
This has nothing to do with evolution, but we don't know. There are some really fascinating hypothesis out there about RNA and crystalline self-replication of protein, but they are still only hypotheses.

7. When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?
We don't know. RNA and DNA both self replicate as a matter of existence, but we don't know exactly how either got their start. It is also far more likely that RNA existed before DNA. And this is because RNA is a lot easier to.... well, lets say it's less difficult.

8. With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?
We don't know. But it wasn't a single cell.

9. Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to survive, or the species? How do you explain this?)
This question doesn't make sense to me. Because of an unavoidable extinction? Some animals actually need others of their kind to sacrifice to predators. For example, Gazelles don't try to outrun lions, they try to outrun other Gazelles.

10. How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books.)
In every single species those that pass on their genes are the ones who have the best equipment to survive and to reproduce. So every gene pool tends to become packed with genes that help for survival. Over a long period of time, those mutations that help with survival/reproduction can pyramid downward to the original organism's descendants. For multi-cellular organisms, evolution through mutation takes place over a long period of time in very small steps. And that's because this pyramiding takes place over a long period of time, and is driven by competition and other factors.
That said, every single individual in that species is subject to a total bombardment of mutations; except that, almost all of them are neutral. When I say neutral, I mean that they have no effect on the organism's chances for survival or ability to reproduce. DNA also helps to correct any mutations that occur, keeping the pace that animals evolve quite slow. Mutations occur because organisms are so complex, and they don't replicate in the best way.
But for these reasons there is a variety among every species. Some people have the ability to drink milk, others do not. Some others have blue eyes, or buck teeth. The only time these changes become standard, is when they effect the survival of the species as a population. Therefore, even if a mutation is good, for example it makes your bones denser, and stronger... it still may not get passed on... not if it effects something else needed in a negative way. Maybe that bone density takes vitamins away from your eyes, and you go blind at a young age and are eaten by a lion. There has to be a balance.
Sometimes the mutations are downright harmful, such as Phenylketonuria, but the individuals who have it aren't given the chance to pass it on. Almost every time that a mutation effects a protein, the result is negative, such as mad cow disease. Fortunately most proteins only stack in a single order. Mutations aren't always naturally occurring either, radiation and chemicals can cause mutations, and the results are always harmful.

Not every species trades "up" either. There are birds who live on predator-free islands who lose the ability to fly. And turtles who became as big as cattle, with shells that made them easy to butcher.


11. Is it possible that similarities in design between different animals prove a common Creator instead of a common ancestor?
No.

12. Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occurred if evolution were true?
Should there be increasing complexity?

13. When, where, why, and how did: a) Single-celled plants become multicelled? (Where are the two- and threecelled intermediates?) b) Single-celled animals evolve? c) Fish change to amphibians? d) Amphibians change to reptiles? e) Reptiles change to birds? (The lungs, bones, eyes, reproductive organs, heart, method of locomotion, body covering, etc., are all very different!) How did the intermediate forms live?
a) We don't know. Intermediates.... Well, lets say that photosynthesis in plants may have come about by hijacking single-celled organisms to do it for them, until they learned how to replicate the single-celled photosynthesizers. b) Single-Celled animals evolve constantly, and they trade DNA and RNA amongst each other... even among different single-celled organisms. We don't know when they first evolved because they don't fossilize.
c.d.e. You should google this. I don't think you have the right understanding of the word "intermediate." This word does not mean that it had no heart or lungs. And it doesn't mean that an organism is not adapted to it's environment. If you could look at your entire evolutionary history, there would be no point where you could say "this ancestor is a man. But this ancestor here is only an ape." The small changes that take place over time happen too slowly to be appreciated. But when you have only a few fossils to go by, then the word "intermediary" has great utility.

I also want to point out that Evolution doesn't need fossil evidence to be true. Darwin did not use fossils when he proposed his theory. Fossil Evidence just bolsters the claim.


14. When, where, why, how, and from what did: a) Whales evolve? b) Sea horses evolve? c) Bats evolve? d) Eyes evolve? e) Ears evolve? f) Hair, skin, feathers, scales, nails, claws, etc., evolve?
Whales are fascinating. They have milk, placenta, lungs, a 4-chambered heart, a single jawbone, a horizontal spine, mammalian brain, and they are warm blooded. I bet they even have gills while developing in the womb, like other mammals. So we've known for a long time before genetic evidence that they were mammals. Whalers were also astute to note that they have hip and leg bones buried inside of their flesh. But recently we've found some missing puzzle pieces for their evolutionary story, yet there is simply too much for me to do it justice. I recommend you google it. Whales are often used as a teaching tool, because their ancestors were remarkable, so you should be able to find an evolutionary table for them. Dr. Eugenie Scott probably has one if you can't find one.

b.c. Even if we didn't know how or when Bats and Sea Horses evolved, would a lack of information about Sea Horses disprove evolution?

d Eyes are equally fascinating, so it's no wonder that Darwin studied them extensively to answer this critical question, so that will give you all the info that you need to google this as well. A little known fact is that jellyfish cant see, but they do sense the colors of light as light bends in the ocean. This is how they know when to float up to feed at night, and when to sink to avoid predators. This or a similar mechanism was probably the birth of the mammalian eye. But also remember that insects developed their eyes separately from the rest of the planet.
It's also important to know that your eye is the worst designed tool in the human body. It's mounted in your head backwards; with the viewing piece in the back instead of the front, and the wires connecting to your brain running across the iris, blocking your view. You actually see everything upside down, with black and blurry spots everywhere. But a series of corrections to the data on the way to your brain correct the image. What you think you "see" isn't an exact representation of what is in front of you. And even that isn't enough to explain what you miss or how poor your eye is.... There are a billion colors that are invisible to us.

*this is why whale's and dolphin's tails move up and down and not side to side like a fish.



15. Which evolved first (how, and how long, did it work without the others)? a) The digestive system, the food to be digested, the appetite, the ability to find and eat the food, the digestive juices, or the body’s resistance to its own digestive juice (stomach, intestines, etc.)? b) The drive to reproduce or the ability to reproduce? c) The lungs, the mucus lining to protect them, the throat, or the perfect mixture of gases to be breathed into the lungs? d) DNA or RNA to carry the DNA message to cell parts? e) The termite or the flagella in its intestines that actually digest the cellulose? f) The plants or the insects that live on and pollinate the plants? g) The bones, ligaments, tendons, blood supply, or muscles to move the bones? h) The nervous system, repair system, or hormone system? i) The immune system or the need for it? (Taken from "The Evidence Bible")

Most of these questions are extremely poor, except for d, which is an astoundingly great question. It is called the "evolutionary arms race" for a reason, guys.


Cheers from the Godless Heathens.
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Re: Questions for Evolutionists

Postby premio53 on Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:19 pm

Symmetry wrote:The Evidence Bible? Seriously? By Franklin Graham, of all people. The guy who predicted that the Japanese Tsunami was the second coming of Christ.

So I should base my arguments against evolution by citing Hitler who justified killing millions because of his belief in a superior evolved race?
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Re: Questions for Evolutionists

Postby Neoteny on Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:20 pm

lawl
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Re: Questions for Evolutionists

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:22 pm

I laughed out loud. But I facepalmed while doing it! lololololol
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Re: Questions for Evolutionists

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:23 pm

premio53 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:The Evidence Bible? Seriously? By Franklin Graham, of all people. The guy who predicted that the Japanese Tsunami was the second coming of Christ.

So I should base my arguments against evolution by citing Hitler who justified killing millions because of his belief in a superior evolved race?


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Re: Questions for Evolutionists

Postby jonesthecurl on Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:24 pm

premio53 wrote:
1. Where did the space for the universe come from?


What does this mean?
the space that the universe is in is not separate from the universe. It is the universe.
If that "space" had "come from" somewhere, that somewhere would have already been the universe.

Without the universe there is no "where".

Are you envisaging a volume with no universe in it, waiting to filled with universe? And if so, why?

I truly have no idea what you are asking here.
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Re: Questions for Evolutionists

Postby Symmetry on Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:28 pm

premio53 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:The Evidence Bible? Seriously? By Franklin Graham, of all people. The guy who predicted that the Japanese Tsunami was the second coming of Christ.

So I should base my arguments against evolution by citing Hitler who justified killing millions because of his belief in a superior evolved race?


Why would you think anything in my post suggested that you cite Hitler? Is he really your go to guy on evolution?

I can suggest that you read A Brief History of Time for some of your physics questions- it's an excellent, but challenging book.

If you'd like to read a bit of modern evolutionary theory explained well, there's Dawkins work (read anything before the God Delusion- I would recommend The Selfish Gene, The Blind Watchmaker, and Climbing Mount Improbable), or Stephen Jay Gould's stuff.
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Re: Questions for Evolutionists

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:30 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:
premio53 wrote:
1. Where did the space for the universe come from?


What does this mean?
the space that the universe is in is not separate from the universe. It is the universe.
If that "space" had "come from" somewhere, that somewhere would have already been the universe.

Without the universe there is no "where".

Are you envisaging a volume with no universe in it, waiting to filled with universe? And if so, why?

I truly have no idea what you are asking here.


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