CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderators: Community Team, Global Moderators

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby caonima on Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:06 pm

Player: there are mysterious accounting tricks that I don't know but that are definitely helping CEOs avoid paying a living wage

Also, ghosts
User avatar
New Recruit caonima
 
Posts: 0
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:57 am
Location: deepweb

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby Symmetry on Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:28 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Timminz wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Timminz wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:accounting "tricks (moving debt from one entity to another without really paying it off, for example).


What do you mean by this example? Are you referring to the things that Enron did, which are now completely illegal and for which top executives are now held personally liable, due to the Sarbanes-Oxley act?


I think you're going to have to explain your interpretation and argument on this one Timminz.


My interpretation is that Player doesn't fully understand these supposed "accounting tricks" and the laws regarding them, but I want to give her the chance to clarify her example, rather than just assuming.

Enron were using methods of hiding debt in subsidiary companies, thus inflating the company's perceived value (which is the practice I assume Player was referring to). Shortly following Enron's collapse (as well as a few other huge accounting scandals, like Worldcom), the US passed the Sarbanes-Oxley act which, among other things, requires full consolidation of subsidiary companies (to prevent exactly what Enron had done) and requires that the top executives of public companies sign off personally on the financial statements, meaning they are now personally liable for any fraudulent financial statements, thus removing their ability to hide behind a limited liability corporation when the shit hits the fan.


LOL.. NO ONE fully understands all the accounting tricks. Experts understand some.. and create different games continually.

What I was referring to had nothing to do with Enron. Companies can shift when and where they take profits for tax and other reasons. Greekdog actually gave a decent example some time ago in explaining how international companies pay taxes. He argued it was perfectly reasonable and sensible. A lot of us disagreed.

More directly, there is the whole bit of banks taking bad debt, piling it together into a new named product that suddenly gets great ratings-- mostly because it was not known before.

The point is that you can focus on whatever details.. and they will change almost as soon as they are figured out, folks write new laws, etc, etc. OR you can focus on the bottom line that our system is very unnecessarily complicated and obtuse, because so many people make tons of money in that system.

It even works for a while... but the ultimate truth is that when people are not paid well, they cannot spend well, and that means fewer profits for everyone.


Aye, one of the interesting things I read about the Enron case (and I appreciate that this is Timminz' example), was that it was so difficult to pin down, even for the Enron executives. What was presented to the court was (if I remember correctly) a summary of a summary of a summary of what Enron was doing, and that still ran to thousands of pages.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1776
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby Timminz on Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:35 pm

Never in my life before this have I seen, "LOL I have no idea what I'm talking about", act as an effective argument. Somehow, it works here though.


I'm done. Player wins.
jay_a2j wrote:lets not be so quick to judge Hitler
User avatar
Major Timminz
 
Posts: 5567
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:05 pm
Location: At the store
Medals: 56
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (4) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (6) General Achievement (2) Clan Achievement (10) Tournament Contribution (1) General Contribution (1)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:44 pm

Timminz wrote:Never in my life before this have I seen, "LOL I have no idea what I'm talking about", act as an effective argument. Somehow, it works here though.


I'm done. Player wins.



You gotta go one question at a time over several weeks. It's slow, but eventually you can stump her.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 4511
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby Symmetry on Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:47 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Timminz wrote:Never in my life before this have I seen, "LOL I have no idea what I'm talking about", act as an effective argument. Somehow, it works here though.


I'm done. Player wins.



You gotta go one question at a time over several weeks. It's slow, but eventually you can stump her.


Or you can argue over time and get a thread calling for your death, eh, BBS? Ah, wait, that ain't a Player tactic. Who was it who pulled that one?
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1776
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:49 pm

Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Timminz wrote:Never in my life before this have I seen, "LOL I have no idea what I'm talking about", act as an effective argument. Somehow, it works here though.


I'm done. Player wins.



You gotta go one question at a time over several weeks. It's slow, but eventually you can stump her.


Or you can argue over time and get a thread calling for your death, eh, BBS?


It's not my fault if the public chooses cake. You'll have to file a complaint against the ConquerClubbers who preferred the greater good.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 4511
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby Symmetry on Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:54 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Timminz wrote:Never in my life before this have I seen, "LOL I have no idea what I'm talking about", act as an effective argument. Somehow, it works here though.


I'm done. Player wins.



You gotta go one question at a time over several weeks. It's slow, but eventually you can stump her.


Or you can argue over time and get a thread calling for your death, eh, BBS? Ah, wait, that ain't a Player tactic. Who was it who pulled that one?


It's not my fault if the public chooses cake. You'll have to file a complaint against the ConquerClubbers who preferred the greater good.


Even for a pretend economist, you show poor taste.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1776
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby stahrgazer on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:04 pm

thegreekdog wrote:I think you're confusing corporate CEOs with financial service providers. They aren't the same thing.


1) Wrong, many financial service providers are companies that have corporate CEOs.
2) Wrong, I said quite clearly, many non-financial-service companies invested, via wall street, in those questionable CDOs and participated in the buying/selling/repackaging of them.
3) Wrong, as I've mentioned before, many CEOs of one company are on the boards of directors of other companies, including financial service provider companies.
4) Wrong. It's just another example of "money-power used unethically to the detriment of the country." As I'd said.
Image
User avatar
Captain stahrgazer
 
Posts: 1421
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 11:59 am
Location: Figment of the Imagination...
Medals: 57
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Bot Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (4) Clan Achievement (8)
Tournament Contribution (1) General Contribution (7)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:06 pm

Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Timminz wrote:Never in my life before this have I seen, "LOL I have no idea what I'm talking about", act as an effective argument. Somehow, it works here though.


I'm done. Player wins.



You gotta go one question at a time over several weeks. It's slow, but eventually you can stump her.


Or you can argue over time and get a thread calling for your death, eh, BBS? Ah, wait, that ain't a Player tactic. Who was it who pulled that one?


It's not my fault if the public chooses cake. You'll have to file a complaint against the ConquerClubbers who preferred the greater good.


Even for a pretend economist, you show poor taste.


I can't help it if I enjoy the company of women, my friend. Tastes are subjective!
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 4511
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:22 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:I think you're confusing corporate CEOs with financial service providers. They aren't the same thing.


1) Wrong, many financial service providers are companies that have corporate CEOs.
2) Wrong, I said quite clearly, many non-financial-service companies invested, via wall street, in those questionable CDOs and participated in the buying/selling/repackaging of them.
3) Wrong, as I've mentioned before, many CEOs of one company are on the boards of directors of other companies, including financial service provider companies.
4) Wrong. It's just another example of "money-power used unethically to the detriment of the country." As I'd said.


Answer my other questions in the other thread. Until you do that...

There is a distinct and marked difference between the CEO of General Electric and the chairman of Goldman Sachs. Your numbers (2) through (4) demonstrate how there are marked differences. For example, your (4) above states that "it's just another example" which demonstrates that the situations are different although your interpretation of the ultimate goals may be the same.
Image
User avatar
Sergeant thegreekdog
 
Posts: 6217
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia
Medals: 38
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (2) General Contribution (2)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby Symmetry on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:25 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Answer my other questions in the other thread. Until you do that...


Ah the quintessential TGD argument.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1776
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:29 pm

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Answer my other questions in the other thread. Until you do that...


Ah the quintessential TGD argument.


Ah the quintessential Symmetry response.
Image
User avatar
Sergeant thegreekdog
 
Posts: 6217
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia
Medals: 38
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (2) General Contribution (2)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby Symmetry on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:51 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Answer my other questions in the other thread. Until you do that...


Ah the quintessential TGD argument.


Ah the quintessential Symmetry response.


As the French say- touch.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1776
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:54 pm

Timminz wrote:Never in my life before this have I seen, "LOL I have no idea what I'm talking about", act as an effective argument. Somehow, it works here though.


I'm done. Player wins.

I see, you pick a 30 year old example, an example that people are still tangling out, and use it to dispute my claim that firms are using multiple techniques, inventing methods to avoid honest profit and loss reports....

And then go off as if you have actually made a statement?

I gave you a pretty good and well understood example, by-teh-way... the much more recent mortgage crisis, which was very much created by banks doing what can very loosely be called "accouting tricks", but are more often thought of by average people ast just plain fraud and cheating. Trouble is, none of those frauds and cheats, not a single one has been indicted, never mind convicted. Most walked off with hefty bonuses.

And none of that explains what is wrong with someone working hard 40 plus hours a day at a job someone apparently needs to have done, expecting to be able to just live without government assistance in return for that labor.

OR why such a thought generates such derision from so many people who seem to think they ought to have to pay fewer taxes, should not have to support worthless non-working people.


Yeah, its find to talk about companies being held accountable in a purely esoteric sense.... but apparently, just not when it comes to real details. THAT kind of responsibility is only for poor people who are too stupid to make reasonable choices for themselves.
Corporal 1st Class PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2568
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby stahrgazer on Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:30 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Answer my other questions in the other thread. Until you do that...

There is a distinct and marked difference between the CEO of General Electric and the chairman of Goldman Sachs. Your numbers (2) through (4) demonstrate how there are marked differences. For example, your (4) above states that "it's just another example" which demonstrates that the situations are different although your interpretation of the ultimate goals may be the same.


Whether I read through the entire thread to answer stuff I've probably already answered, but you're too blind to see; or whether I don't...

"Just another example," implies similarity, not differences.

There's not much difference between the CEO of GE and the chairman of GS. GE is undermining small businesses by becoming a multiglomerate and taking alot of its manufacturing OUTSIDE the United States, which small businesses cannot compete with. GE became able to do this primarily because of taxpayers and government-awarded contracts and in return, is making its CEO and its stockholders rich while forgetting how it got there, just as the chairman of GS made its CEO and its stockholders rich while forgetting how it got there. In both examples, the taxpayers were left holding the bag, and in both examples, the companies are f*g the American businesses and workers.

It's like this, dearie: Blue and red may be different along the light spectrum, but they both fit somewhere on that spectrum; just as GS and GE may produce different products, but they both conduct practices that undermine rather than support what made them great, and what made this country great.
Image
User avatar
Captain stahrgazer
 
Posts: 1421
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 11:59 am
Location: Figment of the Imagination...
Medals: 57
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Bot Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (4) Clan Achievement (8)
Tournament Contribution (1) General Contribution (7)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:46 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
So, if all employees were paid a living wage, would the different prices of different corporate executives become irrelevant?

Yes, as long as the company is still profitable. A unprofitable company will fail, so by definition, that matters.

But as stargazer indicated, the profits must be real and true, not simply gimmicks using government funding or accounting "tricks (moving debt from one entity to another without really paying it off, for example). Also, profit must be long term, not just a matter of months or a single year. Its too easy for companies in today's world to hide real debt and pretend profits when none really exist.


If profit must be long-term, then does this mean that during the onset of the automobile, all horse-and-buggy producers should have had long-term profits?


HEY-OHH!!!

Where's teh answer?
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 4511
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:13 am

stahrgazer wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Answer my other questions in the other thread. Until you do that...

There is a distinct and marked difference between the CEO of General Electric and the chairman of Goldman Sachs. Your numbers (2) through (4) demonstrate how there are marked differences. For example, your (4) above states that "it's just another example" which demonstrates that the situations are different although your interpretation of the ultimate goals may be the same.


Whether I read through the entire thread to answer stuff I've probably already answered, but you're too blind to see; or whether I don't...

"Just another example," implies similarity, not differences.

There's not much difference between the CEO of GE and the chairman of GS. GE is undermining small businesses by becoming a multiglomerate and taking alot of its manufacturing OUTSIDE the United States, which small businesses cannot compete with. GE became able to do this primarily because of taxpayers and government-awarded contracts and in return, is making its CEO and its stockholders rich while forgetting how it got there, just as the chairman of GS made its CEO and its stockholders rich while forgetting how it got there. In both examples, the taxpayers were left holding the bag, and in both examples, the companies are f*g the American businesses and workers.


Right... and what's the point again? It appears that the shareholder of General Electric are content with this situation. Furthermore, and more relevant to our current conversation (see the subject of the thread?), your great diatribe here does not have anything to do with CEO salaries, corporate power and employees.

stahrgazer wrote:It's like this, dearie: Blue and red may be different along the light spectrum, but they both fit somewhere on that spectrum; just as GS and GE may produce different products, but they both conduct practices that undermine rather than support what made them great, and what made this country great.


Dearie?

In the context of CEO salaries, corporate power, and employees, there are very stark differences between GE and Goldman. I doubt there are many Goldman employees complaining about their salaries. I doubt the CEO of GE is very concerned about the financial derivatives.
Image
User avatar
Sergeant thegreekdog
 
Posts: 6217
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia
Medals: 38
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (2) General Contribution (2)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:10 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:I think you're confusing corporate CEOs with financial service providers. They aren't the same thing.


1) Wrong, many financial service providers are companies that have corporate CEOs.
2) Wrong, I said quite clearly, many non-financial-service companies invested, via wall street, in those questionable CDOs and participated in the buying/selling/repackaging of them.
3) Wrong, as I've mentioned before, many CEOs of one company are on the boards of directors of other companies, including financial service provider companies.
4) Wrong. It's just another example of "money-power used unethically to the detriment of the country." As I'd said.


Answer my other questions in the other thread. Until you do that...

There is a distinct and marked difference between the CEO of General Electric and the chairman of Goldman Sachs. Your numbers (2) through (4) demonstrate how there are marked differences. For example, your (4) above states that "it's just another example" which demonstrates that the situations are different although your interpretation of the ultimate goals may be the same.

The REAL bottom line is that to the average employee in the US, it really doesn't matter, nor should it.. any more than it really matters in your day-to-day life whether a person is a zoologist or a wildlife biologist. Both should use credible science, come up with credible data.

Whether you call yourself a CEO, a financial service provider executive or whatever is irrelevant. The point is that rules are structured so that folks dealing with lots of money and who benefit the most from various transactions are the same ones who set the rules, who even pretty well decide what is taught in business schools, economic theory.

Meanwhile, most people just want to do their job, do it well and get paid for their hard work, without having to play a lot of gimmics, spend tons of money to hire someone to make sure they are not cheated financially or otherwise.

When you want to claim that working 40 hours a week doesn't entitle someone to have a house and feed their family, then it pretty much seems like you are talking about the 1900's or some other country... not the great US of A.
Corporal 1st Class PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2568
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby stahrgazer on Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:54 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Dearie?

In the context of CEO salaries, corporate power, and employees, there are very stark differences between GE and Goldman. I doubt there are many Goldman employees complaining about their salaries. I doubt the CEO of GE is very concerned about the financial derivatives.


You can doubt all you like, but you'd be inaccurate.

Goldman Sachs Reacts To Poor Quarter With 1,000 Planned Layoffs

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/1 ... 03791.html

GE Bond Fund Investors Cash Out After Losses From Subprime
Nov. 15 (Bloomberg) -- A short-term bond fund run by General Electric Co.'s GE Asset Management returned money to investors at 96 cents on the dollar after losing about $200 million, mostly on mortgage-backed securities.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ad7C32asHxJw

Meanwhile:



Not very recently but in a couple of weeks or so we're due to get another raise. GE wants us to forgo any raises until the next contract in (I think)2011.
That's what I suspect this meeting is about. If we don't give up our raises, they may put us all on a 32 hour work week.
Not only will that reduce our wages but it will make us inelligible for supplemental pay that helps make up wages when you're laid off.
BTW, Jeff Immelt CEO of GE gave up his bonus in 2008.(it was $3,300,000 the previous year) Between salary, stock awards, deferred earnings etc he still made $14,096,603 in 2008. In other words he made more in one quarter than any of us will make in our lifetime. Poor baby.

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/erie-pa ... KL7L16N0VA

CTJ Report: General Electric Paid 2.3% Federal Taxes on $81 Billion Profit

General Electric paid just 2.3 percent in federal taxes over the last decade, despite earning more than $81 billion in profits over that..
February 29, 2012 with 0 Comments
GENERAL ELECTRIC MADE $14.2 BILLION PROFIT IN 2010; PAID $0.00 IN TAXES
GENERAL ELECTRIC MADE $14.2 BILLION PROFIT IN 2010; PAID $0.00 IN TAXES

General Electric (GE) corporation earned $14,200,000,000 in profits in 2010, but for the second year in a row paid absolutely no federal..

http://morallowground.com/tag/ge-layoffs/
Image
User avatar
Captain stahrgazer
 
Posts: 1421
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 11:59 am
Location: Figment of the Imagination...
Medals: 57
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Bot Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (4) Clan Achievement (8)
Tournament Contribution (1) General Contribution (7)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:11 am

TGD wrote:GE doesn't care about financial derivatives


stahrgazer wrote:Goldman Sachs lays off some people which is proof that GE does care about financial derivatives.


Wrong company dearie. Try again.

stahrgazer wrote:GE loses $200 million on mortgage-backed securities.


There you go! Nice work. Now you need to prove that $200 million is enough for GE to care about AND that GE cares more about it than other companies AND that GE's corporate officers' salaries are influenced by decisions related to mortgage-backed securities. I'm sure you can get your professor to help you.

stahrgazer wrote:In 2011, GE forces people to work 32 hours a week to pay them less and not give them supplemental pay when they are laid off. CEO makes $14 million in salary, stock awards, and deferred earnings in 2008.


Other than the fact that the dates are three years apart (and the major portion is from two years ago) and other than the fact that stock awards and deferred earnings probably make up 95% to 99% of that $14 million, it's disturbing. So what? What contributes to this and what do you think we should do about it? Two questions you have yet to answer.

stahrgazer wrote:GE paid 2.3% federal taxes on $81 billion of profit.


The same bogus fact that keeps being brought up again and again and again by ignorant media members. How much of those profits were earned in the United States? How much of those profits were earned overseas? How much tax did GE pay overseas? Is this "problem" of GE not paying enough US taxes indicative of GE doing something wrong; if the answer is yes, please explain exactly what GE is doing wrong and how you propose to fix it?
Image
User avatar
Sergeant thegreekdog
 
Posts: 6217
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia
Medals: 38
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (2) General Contribution (2)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby stahrgazer on Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:53 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
TGD wrote:GE doesn't care about financial derivatives


stahrgazer wrote:Goldman Sachs lays off some people which is proof that GE does care about financial derivatives.


Wrong company dearie. Try again.

stahrgazer wrote:GE loses $200 million on mortgage-backed securities.


There you go! Nice work. Now you need to prove that $200 million is enough for GE to care about AND that GE cares more about it than other companies AND that GE's corporate officers' salaries are influenced by decisions related to mortgage-backed securities. I'm sure you can get your professor to help you.

stahrgazer wrote:In 2011, GE forces people to work 32 hours a week to pay them less and not give them supplemental pay when they are laid off. CEO makes $14 million in salary, stock awards, and deferred earnings in 2008.


Other than the fact that the dates are three years apart (and the major portion is from two years ago) and other than the fact that stock awards and deferred earnings probably make up 95% to 99% of that $14 million, it's disturbing. So what? What contributes to this and what do you think we should do about it? Two questions you have yet to answer.

stahrgazer wrote:GE paid 2.3% federal taxes on $81 billion of profit.


The same bogus fact that keeps being brought up again and again and again by ignorant media members. How much of those profits were earned in the United States? How much of those profits were earned overseas? How much tax did GE pay overseas? Is this "problem" of GE not paying enough US taxes indicative of GE doing something wrong; if the answer is yes, please explain exactly what GE is doing wrong and how you propose to fix it?


It's not a "bogus fact," it's a real fact.

It's a US company that got big enough to go "overseas" at all because of US Government contracts, so it's "wrong" morally/patriotically, even if it's currently "Legal." But man the stinkum that Obama wants to close those loopholes and go after taxes for US companies' foreign assets (like our nation used to do.)

Personally I'd like to see trade tariffs on imports reinstated to re-equalize the balance, making it more profitable to employ people here to make things to export than to do the reverse.

It'd sure help ensure that our nation's defenses can be done properly.

I've stated in threads I worked for Pratt & Whitney at one time. At the time, some of the parts we needed could no longer be obtained from U.S. manufacturers because all the manufacturing got moved overseas. How'd you like your next-generation Air Force jet to be "made in Japan," or "Made in China," or "Made in Pakistan," like so many other jobs/products did? Imagine it, Greek, having our nation's security dependent on Pakistanis keeping our products "secret" from possible terrorists within their border.

Or would you say that our government shouldn't allow that to happen? Shouldn't deal with companies who manufacture overseas just in case that means our defense products ALSO get made overseas?

If not our defense products, why any of the products that we could and used to make here?

Should the government do what it can to keep production lines open so our US defense products DO continue to be 100% national? Well, to do that, it means "manufacturing" has to be kept here. And to do that, the government has to step in. And if the government steps in on that (as I believe it should have all along) then these CEOs can't send our jobs "over there," to claim massive profits.

I'd like to see a system that bases a product on its cost to make, not on "whatever the fools will pay." We do it in times of emergency (price gouging after a hurricane, etc., is a felony offense) and if we stopped that, the companies wouldn't go make things overseas for peanuts, to sell it here at prices just as though they were made here (Nike vs. New Balance, for example) which means CEO salaries would naturally be less.


As to your complaint that in my examples the cause sometimes preceded the effect by three years, well, sometimes that happens in economics, dearie. The "housing crash" technically took place in 2008 but there are still a ton of houses upside-down, still banks paying off TARP, still folks who were laid off then that aren't back to work (so more houses being foreclosed on)... as I said, sometimes there is a time delay between cause and effect.
Image
User avatar
Captain stahrgazer
 
Posts: 1421
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 11:59 am
Location: Figment of the Imagination...
Medals: 57
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Bot Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (4) Clan Achievement (8)
Tournament Contribution (1) General Contribution (7)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:38 pm

stahrgazer wrote:It's not a "bogus fact," it's a real fact.

It's a US company that got big enough to go "overseas" at all because of US Government contracts, so it's "wrong" morally/patriotically, even if it's currently "Legal." But man the stinkum that Obama wants to close those loopholes and go after taxes for US companies' foreign assets (like our nation used to do.)

Personally I'd like to see trade tariffs on imports reinstated to re-equalize the balance, making it more profitable to employ people here to make things to export than to do the reverse.


I'm not really sure what to make of this part. It's a bogus fact because it's used to justify discussions about General Electric not paying it's fair share (whatever that may be). If the people that like to use such statistics bothered to report the entirety of tax paid by General Electric, they might understand that GE is paying it's fair share (whatever that may be). If people that like to use such statistics had any sense, they would realize that their outrage is better served by being directed at Congress and the president, and not at the company itself. And patriotism? Do you pay more taxes than you are legally required to pay? Would you purchase stock in a company that pays more taxes than they are legally required to pay? Would you work for a company knowing that your salary would be lower if the company paid more taxes than it legally had to pay? If you answer yes to any of those questions, you're lying.

I don't disagree that there are things that can be done to the current tax code that would force companies to pay more in taxes. What I disagree with is the characterization that paying more taxes than is legally required has to do with morality. And I also disagree with your characterization of the president as someone who wants to close loopholes. He just recently signed an extension of various tax incentives for big business, while at the same time raising taxes on all individual Americans. So stop with that "Obama wants to close loopholes" nonsense. Obama doesn't want to close loopholes. And they aren't loopholes when they are purposefully placed in the tax code by Congress.

stahrgazer wrote:It'd sure help ensure that our nation's defenses can be done properly.


No kidding.

stahrgazer wrote:I'd like to see a system that bases a product on its cost to make, not on "whatever the fools will pay." We do it in times of emergency (price gouging after a hurricane, etc., is a felony offense) and if we stopped that, the companies wouldn't go make things overseas for peanuts, to sell it here at prices just as though they were made here (Nike vs. New Balance, for example) which means CEO salaries would naturally be less.


Do you have an i-phone or similar device? How much money did you pay for it?

I purchased an i-phone for $300. How much would the device have cost if Apple manufactured the device and all of its attendant parts in the United States? Would that have influenced my decision to purchase the i-phone?

It's great to want US companies to manufacture in the United States and it's great that we want people to have jobs. But all those people that now have jobs wouldn't be able to afford the product and you wouldn't either because the costs would be too high. And trust me, the CEO taking a $10 million cut in pay isn't going to make up for that cost.

The problem with jobs going overseas has to do directly with US taxation, US regulations, and US employment laws. I'm not saying we should or need to change any of that stuff, but if you're suggesting we do change these things, think about the relative cost to US consumers.
Image
User avatar
Sergeant thegreekdog
 
Posts: 6217
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia
Medals: 38
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (2) General Contribution (2)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:51 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:It's not a "bogus fact," it's a real fact.

It's a US company that got big enough to go "overseas" at all because of US Government contracts, so it's "wrong" morally/patriotically, even if it's currently "Legal." But man the stinkum that Obama wants to close those loopholes and go after taxes for US companies' foreign assets (like our nation used to do.)

Personally I'd like to see trade tariffs on imports reinstated to re-equalize the balance, making it more profitable to employ people here to make things to export than to do the reverse.


I'm not really sure what to make of this part. It's a bogus fact because it's used to justify discussions about General Electric not paying it's fair share (whatever that may be). If the people that like to use such statistics bothered to report the entirety of tax paid by General Electric, they might understand that GE is paying it's fair share (whatever that may be). If people that like to use such statistics had any sense, they would realize that their outrage is better served by being directed at Congress and the president, and not at the company itself. And patriotism? Do you pay more taxes than you are legally required to pay? Would you purchase stock in a company that pays more taxes than they are legally required to pay? Would you work for a company knowing that your salary would be lower if the company paid more taxes than it legally had to pay? If you answer yes to any of those questions, you're lying.

I don't disagree that there are things that can be done to the current tax code that would force companies to pay more in taxes. What I disagree with is the characterization that paying more taxes than is legally required has to do with morality. And I also disagree with your characterization of the president as someone who wants to close loopholes. He just recently signed an extension of various tax incentives for big business, while at the same time raising taxes on all individual Americans. So stop with that "Obama wants to close loopholes" nonsense. Obama doesn't want to close loopholes. And they aren't loopholes when they are purposefully placed in the tax code by Congress.

stahrgazer wrote:It'd sure help ensure that our nation's defenses can be done properly.


No kidding.

stahrgazer wrote:I'd like to see a system that bases a product on its cost to make, not on "whatever the fools will pay." We do it in times of emergency (price gouging after a hurricane, etc., is a felony offense) and if we stopped that, the companies wouldn't go make things overseas for peanuts, to sell it here at prices just as though they were made here (Nike vs. New Balance, for example) which means CEO salaries would naturally be less.


Do you have an i-phone or similar device? How much money did you pay for it?

I purchased an i-phone for $300. How much would the device have cost if Apple manufactured the device and all of its attendant parts in the United States? Would that have influenced my decision to purchase the i-phone?

It's great to want US companies to manufacture in the United States and it's great that we want people to have jobs. But all those people that now have jobs wouldn't be able to afford the product and you wouldn't either because the costs would be too high. And trust me, the CEO taking a $10 million cut in pay isn't going to make up for that cost.

The problem with jobs going overseas has to do directly with US taxation, US regulations, and US employment laws. I'm not saying we should or need to change any of that stuff, but if you're suggesting we do change these things, think about the relative cost to US consumers.


No, I don't have an i-phone and wont because they're not manufactured in the US but they charge as though they are.

Review the costs in your stores of Nike and Reebok vs. New Balance. New Balance is made in the US.
Here's one at random.

Minimus 10 Trail
4.9 / 5
4.9 / 5
Open Ratings Snapshot
Read all reviews
Write a review
Women's Running
- Style# WT10BL
$79.99

Here's a Nike, not made in the US, cheapest one I saw:

NIKE FREE RUN+ 3
Women's Running Shoe
$100

Here's a Reebok, also not made in the US
ZigLite Electrify
(7)
$99.99 reg $69.99 sale
More Colors


$69.99 on sale or $99.99/100.00 for a non-US shoe vs. 79.99 for a US shoe that's frequently recommended by podiatrists (foot docs, who should know what's best for feet) over the non-US brands.

Tell me again that the cost of a product made in the US would be substantially higher. :lol:

p.s. it's still not a "bogus fact" that with all the money GE, a supposedly US company makes, it pays nil in taxes. And yes, I do blame Congress for being so bought-and-paid-for by corporations that they put those taxcodes in that favor foreign rather than domestic investment while eliminating the tariffs that would make up the difference to keep our country healthily employed.
Image
User avatar
Captain stahrgazer
 
Posts: 1421
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 11:59 am
Location: Figment of the Imagination...
Medals: 57
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Bot Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (4) Clan Achievement (8)
Tournament Contribution (1) General Contribution (7)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby Juan_Bottom on Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:20 pm

Thank-You Stahr for the protip!
I did not know that New Balance was made in the US! I'm definitely going to take a look at their shoes when I get a new pair of runners for spring.

Some important items, like shoes for example, I would be perfectly ok with someone buying foreign-made goods, so long as it's an issue of quality. My own hiking boots are English-made, but they are absolutely top-tier. In a survival situation, that quality is important. But when folks are saving $.30 by buying Mexican Orange-Juice that always bothers me. There's nothing wrong with Mexican labor or juice, I'd just like to see you spend $.30 to keep your neighbors employed. You kinda lose your creditably to me when you complain about the economy or whatever and you're buying foriegn first.


EDIT: I take that back, my hiking boots are Italian. And yes, expensive.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Juan_Bottom
 
Posts: 1104
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 4:59 pm
Location: USA RULES! WHOOO!!!!
Medals: 21
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (2)
Clan Achievement (3)

Re: CEO salaries, corporate power and employees

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:11 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:Thank-You Stahr for the protip!
I did not know that New Balance was made in the US! I'm definitely going to take a look at their shoes when I get a new pair of runners for spring.

Some important items, like shoes for example, I would be perfectly ok with someone buying foreign-made goods, so long as it's an issue of quality. My own hiking boots are English-made, but they are absolutely top-tier. In a survival situation, that quality is important. But when folks are saving $.30 by buying Mexican Orange-Juice that always bothers me. There's nothing wrong with Mexican labor or juice, I'd just like to see you spend $.30 to keep your neighbors employed. You kinda lose your creditably to me when you complain about the economy or whatever and you're buying foriegn first.


EDIT: I take that back, my hiking boots are Italian. And yes, expensive.


Its worse than that, because often a big reason for companies going overseas is to avoid clean manufacturing and safe worker rules. So, its not just that we get poor quality, move money into the hands of a few wealthy people more and more at the expense of average folks, we also add to future generations problems in multitude.... and yet, folks are ignorant enough to claim its "progress".
Corporal 1st Class PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2568
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

PreviousNext

Return to Babble-On Five

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: dario2099

Login