Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderators: Global Moderators, Community Team

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby Lootifer on Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:24 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:That quote doesn't mean that YOU have to be stupid.
Despite all their failings, humans can be magnificent sometimes.
try to be magnificent, not stupid.

I agree.

I'd also point out that its not always being stupid, but sometimes being an asshole, and sometimes being both.

I try [and usually fail] to avoid both.

j9b wrote:i have that view as well, but i don't trust government because government is just a bunch of relatively stupid humans who don't know me trying to solve my problems.

if there is a god, then they would be much better at doing so, because they aren't human.

I personally think stupidity of decision makers can be something we "evolve" out of.
I go to the gym to justify my mockery of fat people.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Lootifer
 
Posts: 787
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:30 pm
Location: Competing
Medals: 15
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (1) General Contribution (1)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby john9blue on Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:23 pm

Lootifer wrote:
j9b wrote:i have that view as well, but i don't trust government because government is just a bunch of relatively stupid humans who don't know me trying to solve my problems.

if there is a god, then they would be much better at doing so, because they aren't human.

I personally think stupidity of decision makers can be something we "evolve" out of.


i think so too... in fact i think it has already happened to an extent... but our species has been fucking up our own natural selection lately, so we'll see whether that ends up working.

crispybits wrote:
john9blue wrote:i have that view as well, but i don't trust government because government is just a bunch of relatively stupid humans who don't know me trying to solve my problems.

if there is a god, then they would be much better at doing so, because they aren't human.


I agree - but I see religion as another bunch of stupid humans - if there is a God and he demonstrates his/her/it's existence and starts acting directly to sort things out then I'll be all for it.


some religions are better than others. getting scammed by a dumb religion (like scientology) isn't much different from getting scammed by some other con artist.
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
(proud member of the Occasionally Wrongly Banned)
User avatar
Captain john9blue
 
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:18 pm
Location: FlutterChi-town
Medals: 14
Standard Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2)
Speed Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (3)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:31 pm

Lootifer wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:That quote doesn't mean that YOU have to be stupid.
Despite all their failings, humans can be magnificent sometimes.
try to be magnificent, not stupid.

I agree.

I'd also point out that its not always being stupid, but sometimes being an asshole, and sometimes being both.

I try [and usually fail] to avoid both.

j9b wrote:i have that view as well, but i don't trust government because government is just a bunch of relatively stupid humans who don't know me trying to solve my problems.

if there is a god, then they would be much better at doing so, because they aren't human.

I personally think stupidity of decision makers can be something we "evolve" out of.


So the Soviet Union needed another 60 years or so, and it would've worked like a charm?
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 4659
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby john9blue on Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:58 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
So the Soviet Union needed another 60 years or so, and it would've worked like a charm?


man... are you another one of those guys who thinks significant humans evolution can happen in a 50 year time span?
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
(proud member of the Occasionally Wrongly Banned)
User avatar
Captain john9blue
 
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:18 pm
Location: FlutterChi-town
Medals: 14
Standard Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2)
Speed Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (3)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:18 am

john9blue wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
So the Soviet Union needed another 60 years or so, and it would've worked like a charm?


man... are you another one of those guys who thinks significant humans evolution can happen in a 50 year time span?


Yeah, you're right. With Lootifer's argument, 1000s of years of totalitarian governance is justifiable!
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 4659
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby john9blue on Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:38 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
john9blue wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
So the Soviet Union needed another 60 years or so, and it would've worked like a charm?


man... are you another one of those guys who thinks significant humans evolution can happen in a 50 year time span?


Yeah, you're right. With Lootifer's argument, 1000s of years of totalitarian governance is justifiable!


it is if you consider "they aren't evolved enough" to be justification. which apparently is a good enough answer to questions like "why do some birds rape each other" and "why do female insects eat male insects after they f*ck"
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
(proud member of the Occasionally Wrongly Banned)
User avatar
Captain john9blue
 
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:18 pm
Location: FlutterChi-town
Medals: 14
Standard Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2)
Speed Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (3)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:06 pm

john9blue wrote:it is if you consider "they aren't evolved enough" to be justification. which apparently is a good enough answer to questions like "why do some birds rape each other" and "why do female insects eat male insects after they f*ck"


Evolution has nothing to do with man-made moral considerations. Evolution pushes towards a selective advantage in a certain ecosystem. Do you think eating the males after they f*ck is some kind of evolutionary hiccup that will be fixed when the evolution1.1 patch is released?

Improving the human condition is something that only humans can do. Hoping that "evolution" will somehow fix our problems is equivalent to wishing for the rapture to happen so we can all go live in our mansions in the sky.

* Note: I am using evolution is the strict biological sense. If you're using some fuzzy notion of "all progress is evolution" then the term loses all meaning. The difference I'm specifying is that evolution is something that happens to the members of a species, whereas our progress in the past couple thousand years is something we did to ourselves. Not something that evolution or aliens or sky daddies did for us.
Highest score: 3063; Highest position: 67;
Winner of {World War II tournament, -team 2010 Skilled Diversity, [FuN||Chewy]-[XII] USA};
8-3-7
User avatar
Major Haggis_McMutton
 
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:32 am
Medals: 28
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (3) General Achievement (4)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby john9blue on Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:34 pm

Haggis_McMutton wrote:Evolution has nothing to do with man-made moral considerations. Evolution pushes towards a selective advantage in a certain ecosystem. Do you think eating the males after they f*ck is some kind of evolutionary hiccup that will be fixed when the evolution1.1 patch is released?

Improving the human condition is something that only humans can do. Hoping that "evolution" will somehow fix our problems is equivalent to wishing for the rapture to happen so we can all go live in our mansions in the sky.

* Note: I am using evolution is the strict biological sense. If you're using some fuzzy notion of "all progress is evolution" then the term loses all meaning. The difference I'm specifying is that evolution is something that happens to the members of a species, whereas our progress in the past couple thousand years is something we did to ourselves. Not something that evolution or aliens or sky daddies did for us.


would you agree that societal morals are made to benefit humanity as a whole?

would you agree that we can only develop these morals due to the advanced intelligence that our species evolved?

if so, then i propose that man-made morals are an evolutionary adaptation to benefit our species. there are evolutionary reasons why our society has taboos on (for example) incest and cannibalism. how do you think those developed in the first place?
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
(proud member of the Occasionally Wrongly Banned)
User avatar
Captain john9blue
 
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:18 pm
Location: FlutterChi-town
Medals: 14
Standard Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2)
Speed Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (3)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:32 am

john9blue wrote:would you agree that societal morals are made to benefit humanity as a whole?


Not really. At best you could argue that they're made to benefit the specific society they occur in. The widespread notion that all humans are equal is a very recent one, for almost all of human history people really only gave a shit about their "group".

john9blue wrote:would you agree that we can only develop these morals due to the advanced intelligence that our species evolved?


To some extent yeah. I don't know if it's a purely human trait. I'm pretty sure chimps also have some kind of social rules that allows them to live in groups.

john9blue wrote:if so, then i propose that man-made morals are an evolutionary adaptation to benefit our species. there are evolutionary reasons why our society has taboos on (for example) incest and cannibalism. how do you think those developed in the first place?


Right, I agree with that to some extent.
However, there has not been an evolutionary change leading to the widespread change in opinion regarding slavery or racism or owning women or the right to kill your kids or the value of human life in general. We have seen MAJOR shifts in culture in the past couple thousand years and these were not caused by any evolutionary event.
Therefore these changes are due to the actions of humans. It's due to emperors uniting large areas of land and then imposing a rule of law. It's due to the creation of currency. It's due to the proliferation of trade. It's due to the invention of the printing press. And so on and so forth.
Highest score: 3063; Highest position: 67;
Winner of {World War II tournament, -team 2010 Skilled Diversity, [FuN||Chewy]-[XII] USA};
8-3-7
User avatar
Major Haggis_McMutton
 
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:32 am
Medals: 28
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (3) General Achievement (4)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby john9blue on Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:42 am

Haggis_McMutton wrote:
Not really. At best you could argue that they're made to benefit the specific society they occur in. The widespread notion that all humans are equal is a very recent one, for almost all of human history people really only gave a shit about their "group".


yes, but you're missing the point. societal mores still exist to benefit the survival of the group of humans in question. this is the purpose of evolution.

Haggis_McMutton wrote:Right, I agree with that to some extent.
However, there has not been an evolutionary change leading to the widespread change in opinion regarding slavery or racism or owning women or the right to kill your kids or the value of human life in general. We have seen MAJOR shifts in culture in the past couple thousand years and these were not caused by any evolutionary event.
Therefore these changes are due to the actions of humans. It's due to emperors uniting large areas of land and then imposing a rule of law. It's due to the creation of currency. It's due to the proliferation of trade. It's due to the invention of the printing press. And so on and so forth.


just because something happens due to our actions doesn't mean it's not an evolutionary adaptation. for example, the actions of peacock females have caused the evolutionary adaptation of bright, colorful plumage. adaptation does not just happen in response to the environment or to other species. in fact, since humans are no longer immediately threatened by either of those, our adaptations to the actions of our own species have become even more important for our survival.
Last edited by john9blue on Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
(proud member of the Occasionally Wrongly Banned)
User avatar
Captain john9blue
 
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:18 pm
Location: FlutterChi-town
Medals: 14
Standard Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2)
Speed Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (3)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:06 am

Haggis_McMutton wrote:
john9blue wrote:it is if you consider "they aren't evolved enough" to be justification. which apparently is a good enough answer to questions like "why do some birds rape each other" and "why do female insects eat male insects after they f*ck"


Evolution has nothing to do with man-made moral considerations. Evolution pushes towards a selective advantage in a certain ecosystem.


Suppose there's a village where murder is acceptable, i.e. there's no such thing as unjustified killing. I'd imagine that they wouldn't survive for that long.

Suppose there's this other village where there's some rules against unjustified killing. I'd imagine that they would have greater chances of survival.

Is this not an example of variation?

If so, then isn't the moral code of humans part of the evolutionary process?
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 4659
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:18 pm

john9blue wrote:yes, but you're missing the point. societal mores still exist to benefit the survival of the group of humans in question. this is the purpose of evolution.


I disagree.
What evolution would really "want" for my genes is if I could kill every male on earth other than me and impregnate as many of the females as I can get around to. The fact that I haven't accomplished this yet is due to the inadequacy of my genetic stock.

What I'm saying is evolution isn't somehow consciously pulling towards the betterment of mankind, it's largely incidental that certain behaviors which we find morally agreeable have also turned out to be evolutionarily profitable. It isn't a "mistake" that male polar bears sometimes eat their own young. For that situation that is what evolution has dictated is optimal.

john9blue wrote:just because something happens due to our actions doesn't mean it's not an evolutionary adaptation. for example, the actions of peacock females have caused the evolutionary adaptation of bright, colorful plumage. adaptation does not just happen in response to the environment or to other species. in fact, since humans are no longer immediately threatened by either of those, our adaptations to the actions of our own species have become even more important for our survival.


I'm saying that there is no significant genetic difference between humans today and humans 3000 years ago. If you took a baby born today and somehow transplanted him in a hunter-gatherer tribe 3000 years ago, 20 years later he would be more than happy to brutally murder the children and women of an opposing tribe and put their vaginas and penises on strings as trophies. The reverse applies as well.
We don't find slavery morally reprehensible today because evolution has changed our brain chemistry, we find it morally reprehensible because of the cultural changes that have occurred. These cultural changes have nothing to do with biological evolution.

BBS wrote:Suppose there's a village where murder is acceptable, i.e. there's no such thing as unjustified killing. I'd imagine that they wouldn't survive for that long.

Suppose there's this other village where there's some rules against unjustified killing. I'd imagine that they would have greater chances of survival.

Is this not an example of variation?

If so, then isn't the moral code of humans part of the evolutionary process?


Yes, but this reasoning only applies to a small subset of our current moral code. To take the most natural extension of your example, the "unjustified" murder would only apply within one's tribe. The murder, rape and torture of a member of any other tribe would be just fine and dandy evolutionarily speaking (baring threats of retribution).

Pinker talks about this. Apparently when monkeys fight for territory and the groups are relatively evenly matched they sort of just jump around and shout until the group that seems weaker gives up and leaves. But it turns out if a group of moneys find just one or two opposing monkeys, the "kindness" ends. They brutally rip them apart and eat parts of their flesh.
Basically evolution "taught" them that when the groups are relatively evenly matched it's bad strategy to get in a fight. But when you have the clear advantage you should take it and kill those fuckers.

So yeah, some evolutionarily beneficial behaviors match with what we think of as moral, but I think this is largely incidental. i.e. what about slavery?
Highest score: 3063; Highest position: 67;
Winner of {World War II tournament, -team 2010 Skilled Diversity, [FuN||Chewy]-[XII] USA};
8-3-7
User avatar
Major Haggis_McMutton
 
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:32 am
Medals: 28
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (3) General Achievement (4)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:58 pm

Haggis_McMutton wrote:
BBS wrote:Suppose there's a village where murder is acceptable, i.e. there's no such thing as unjustified killing. I'd imagine that they wouldn't survive for that long.

Suppose there's this other village where there's some rules against unjustified killing. I'd imagine that they would have greater chances of survival.

Is this not an example of variation?

If so, then isn't the moral code of humans part of the evolutionary process?


Yes, but this reasoning only applies to a small subset of our current moral code. To take the most natural extension of your example, the "unjustified" murder would only apply within one's tribe. The murder, rape and torture of a member of any other tribe would be just fine and dandy evolutionarily speaking (baring threats of retribution).


Sure, that happens, and I'm not trying to justify universal morals and whatever else j9b may be trying to assert. Just sayin' that it's part of the evolutionary process for this particular species (homo sapiens)--which is why I disagree with "Evolution has nothing to do with man-made moral considerations."

Haggis_McMutton wrote:Pinker talks about this. Apparently when monkeys fight for territory and the groups are relatively evenly matched they sort of just jump around and shout until the group that seems weaker gives up and leaves. But it turns out if a group of moneys find just one or two opposing monkeys, the "kindness" ends. They brutally rip them apart and eat parts of their flesh.
Basically evolution "taught" them that when the groups are relatively evenly matched it's bad strategy to get in a fight. But when you have the clear advantage you should take it and kill those fuckers.

So yeah, some evolutionarily beneficial behaviors match with what we think of as moral, but I think this is largely incidental. i.e. what about slavery?


Good, let's take on slavery. Before slavery, human sacrifice was more profitable; however, at some point various groups could realize the gains of greater labor productivity by enslaving others. Perhaps, this was due to the decreased price of maintaining slaves (e.g. greater ability to grow food).

What does that say of morals? I'd say that morals are largely driven by profit-seeking plans, realization of prices, and those outcomes. Those who have the leisure (from Plato to beyond) would then reflect on the outcomes and try to make them coherent. 'Ethics' back in Greece's day meant "custom." Another side of ethics/moral philosophy was about planning beyond the custom. Later, with perhaps the Renaissance Period, we see this side dominate as they would strive to design a moral system beyond the current outcomes/customs--and this phenomenon might be part of evolution, but I'm not sure.

Does someone sitting down, reflecting, and then writing resemble something of evolution? If not, then the ethics/moral philosophy which is designed by reason and largely devoid of current custom may not be part of evolution... but what could it be?
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 4659
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby Lootifer on Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:47 pm

Herp. Intellectual and Cultural evolution is an analogue to the more commonly referred to species evolution. Be pragmatic for once you twits.

BigBallinStalin wrote:
john9blue wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
So the Soviet Union needed another 60 years or so, and it would've worked like a charm?


man... are you another one of those guys who thinks significant humans evolution can happen in a 50 year time span?


Yeah, you're right. With Lootifer's argument, 1000s of years of totalitarian governance is justifiable!

Not even close to what I was saying.

I'd assert that intellectual/cultural evolution is visable in a human-lifespan time scale.

Dont be like PS and view it as black and white BBS; we are evolving towards your own personal-view uptopia. But be warned, if I was you I would personally prepare myself for a pre-libanarchy optimum (i.e. Libertarian Anarchy is kinda poop).

Related to this I believe at this stage we dont have nearly enough data points to determine anything but a theoretical optimum (so far we have a handfull of failed totalitarian systems, a bunch of psuedo-free systems that only serve to give erranous data points - Im looking at you USA, and a few free-ish systems that show, generally, the direction to head in).
I go to the gym to justify my mockery of fat people.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Lootifer
 
Posts: 787
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:30 pm
Location: Competing
Medals: 15
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (1) General Contribution (1)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:22 pm

Lootifer wrote:Herp. Intellectual and Cultural evolution is an analogue to the more commonly referred to species evolution. Be pragmatic for once you twits.

BigBallinStalin wrote:
john9blue wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
So the Soviet Union needed another 60 years or so, and it would've worked like a charm?


man... are you another one of those guys who thinks significant humans evolution can happen in a 50 year time span?


Yeah, you're right. With Lootifer's argument, 1000s of years of totalitarian governance is justifiable!

Not even close to what I was saying.

I'd assert that intellectual/cultural evolution is visable in a human-lifespan time scale.

Dont be like PS and view it as black and white BBS; we are evolving towards your own personal-view uptopia. But be warned, if I was you I would personally prepare myself for a pre-libanarchy optimum (i.e. Libertarian Anarchy is kinda poop).

Related to this I believe at this stage we dont have nearly enough data points to determine anything but a theoretical optimum (so far we have a handfull of failed totalitarian systems, a bunch of psuedo-free systems that only serve to give erranous data points - Im looking at you USA, and a few free-ish systems that show, generally, the direction to head in).


I can't joke around? :(

I don't think the US is headed in the direction of a narrower in scope and more effective government. It's simply consuming more people's incomes in order to transfer wealth to other groups---while at a loss too (deficit spending). It's not sustainable, so my concern is that people will continue looking to the government for a solution to the problems which the government creates and sustains.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 4659
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby Lootifer on Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:27 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:I can't joke around? :(

Apologies, was a bit strong in the interpretation, joke away my man, joke away :D

I don't think the US is headed in the direction of a narrower in scope and more effective government. It's simply consuming more people's incomes in order to transfer wealth to other groups---while at a loss too (deficit spending). It's not sustainable, so my concern is that people will continue looking to the government for a solution to the problems which the government creates and sustains.

Agree.
I go to the gym to justify my mockery of fat people.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Lootifer
 
Posts: 787
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:30 pm
Location: Competing
Medals: 15
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (1) General Contribution (1)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby AslanTheKing on Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:10 pm

Interesting to read,
every page was entertaining too,

but to make this short,

every human has the right to live on this planet,
if they believe in god or not

if they are good humans or bad humans
if they are good animals or bad animals ,
if they are good plants or bad plants,
( becuse it doesnt matter )

theyre so many religions on this earth that many people get confused and fed up,

there comes this question out of my mind
if u are a bad person who deserves to go to hell
where do you go to hell,

to the christian hell, the islamic hell, the buddhist hell, the tribe hell,
is funny or?
should there not be one god?
why then all this many religions?

like this funny quote: ever<body wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die , lol

asking myself this question , i believe i was around 12
by that time i had consumed all information about every religion

but i realized at the end, religions are not different from each other

and that also bad things happen from people who are strong believers in god
some very fanatic god believers are not always the best people,
and bad things happen from atheists

its always the same question, who are we, and were do we come from

i think religion should be personal, even there churches , mosques, temples and much more

as long people dont get hurt , its okay,

unfortunately the history tells us different ( at least as much we humans can go back )

it all started somewhere some time

and thats the illusion, we forget that even before recording human history was people leaving on this planet, in a brutal way
what did this people belive in ?

maybe nothing, but for sure they where very afraid of things they couldn't answer

and thats us today, things we cant answer we are afraid of

we humans are not more inteligent then the ones before us,( there is a mistake in the word inteligence - just google it )

just look at the architecture, literature, music all made many many years ago

today we talk only about iphone, windows, apple, pixar , mercedes etc.... ( i forgot pornography )

never mind

the question is, does god exist and where is he?

guys, and thats exactly the trap

dont ask, dont wonder, just be sure

open your eyes really, not just read and study,
just open your eyes, dont u see

sad for u, i can see it every day, and i dont look at the iPhone,
i look at the nature, and nature has given me the answer, its all there , but people cant see it anymore, very sad

when i lived in australia i was dreaming of skiing in australia ( but before when iwas living in austria i was dreaming of a sandy beach)

now i live in hamburg, germany and i dont dream of all this anymore, now i only dream that my kids are godloving , and people loving, and animal loving
and nature loving

get it?

that they are loving

and thats what humans have lost
to be loving

everything else isnt important and never was, and that was the message all along

( and besides , our human brain is not programmed to get that far ;)

our brain is programmed to get us only to the next stage, to the stage we have been before
and we are not there yet, more will follow, or could u imagine 20 years ago that u talk to somebody on the phone
where there are not wires attached ?????? ( or technically speaking look at the graphics of the old lucasfilm comp games like maniac mansion...)

( if u would leave this planet for good on a spaceship , what would u leave behind?
a DVD with all our knowledge ?

no, i dont think so , u would leave pyramids build out of solid stone, which lasts more than 5000 years or more
( or something else what will last longer enough than a cd, ore ups stick, lol )

( the problem is , that the humans cant read the information correctly , they will misinterpret it )
( even lets say a dvd can last 100000 years, how could the humans know what to do with it without our technology and electricity
evern its all there - it just goes step by step to get there )

and then we are, asking.... and every information is there

humans have been here before, but one day we will be some other place,
we have to, and everything will start from scratch again ( at least for us humans )

not the universe, and not for god

for us humans for sure, until we start again,and again and again

when u die u will know, its soon
( humanly speaking, since 100 years is nothing , but realy nothing for this universe, but for the humans its a lot 9

biblical numbers stated that one man got 130 years old, and we were wondering, no that cant be true,
now people die with 110 years of age ( not all of course )

soon , we will be getting to that age again,

and then?
I used to roll the daizz
Feel the fear in my enemy´s eyes
Listen as the crowd would sing:

Long live the Army Of Kings !


AOK

show: AOK Rocks
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class AslanTheKing
 
Posts: 1201
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:36 am
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Medals: 37
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3) Trench Warfare Achievement (2)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (2) Bot Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (4) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (1)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:06 am

Lootifer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:I can't joke around? :(

Apologies, was a bit strong in the interpretation, joke away my man, joke away :D

I don't think the US is headed in the direction of a narrower in scope and more effective government. It's simply consuming more people's incomes in order to transfer wealth to other groups---while at a loss too (deficit spending). It's not sustainable, so my concern is that people will continue looking to the government for a solution to the problems which the government creates and sustains.

Agree.


Going back to the joke, although certain decision-makers can learn from past mistakes, thus "evolve" to a better form of government, there are some fundamental points which governments/central planning cannot overcome, so they really cannot evolve.

And, even if they get better at doing whatever, it doesn't mean that they should continue the status quo (e.g. central banking's control over The interest rate).
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 4659
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby Lootifer on Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:57 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:I can't joke around? :(

Apologies, was a bit strong in the interpretation, joke away my man, joke away :D

I don't think the US is headed in the direction of a narrower in scope and more effective government. It's simply consuming more people's incomes in order to transfer wealth to other groups---while at a loss too (deficit spending). It's not sustainable, so my concern is that people will continue looking to the government for a solution to the problems which the government creates and sustains.

Agree.


Going back to the joke, although certain decision-makers can learn from past mistakes, thus "evolve" to a better form of government, there are some fundamental points which governments/central planning cannot overcome, so they really cannot evolve.

And, even if they get better at doing whatever, it doesn't mean that they should continue the status quo (e.g. central banking's control over The interest rate).

Go on...
I go to the gym to justify my mockery of fat people.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Lootifer
 
Posts: 787
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:30 pm
Location: Competing
Medals: 15
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (1) General Contribution (1)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby Neoteny on Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:45 pm

Don't encourage his imperialism.
Napoleon Ier wrote:You people need to grow up to be honest.
User avatar
Lieutenant Neoteny
 
Posts: 2510
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:24 pm
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Medals: 29
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (2)
Clan Achievement (2)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:48 pm

Lootifer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:I can't joke around? :(

Apologies, was a bit strong in the interpretation, joke away my man, joke away :D

I don't think the US is headed in the direction of a narrower in scope and more effective government. It's simply consuming more people's incomes in order to transfer wealth to other groups---while at a loss too (deficit spending). It's not sustainable, so my concern is that people will continue looking to the government for a solution to the problems which the government creates and sustains.

Agree.


Going back to the joke, although certain decision-makers can learn from past mistakes, thus "evolve" to a better form of government, there are some fundamental points which governments/central planning cannot overcome, so they really cannot evolve.

And, even if they get better at doing whatever, it doesn't mean that they should continue the status quo (e.g. central banking's control over The interest rate).

Go on...


For one, the prices which emerge from voluntary exchanges and its consequences.
Another is profit and loss, which serves as a objective criteria for measuring one's performance (i.e. ability to satisfy consumers). Central planners who do not operate within a market (governments) lack this ability.
Then there's groupthink, monopoly and special privileges/collusion--which cannot be overcome by competition alone, if it's been curtailed by the law, etc.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 4659
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:10 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:
BBS wrote:Suppose there's a village where murder is acceptable, i.e. there's no such thing as unjustified killing. I'd imagine that they wouldn't survive for that long.

Suppose there's this other village where there's some rules against unjustified killing. I'd imagine that they would have greater chances of survival.

Is this not an example of variation?

If so, then isn't the moral code of humans part of the evolutionary process?


Yes, but this reasoning only applies to a small subset of our current moral code. To take the most natural extension of your example, the "unjustified" murder would only apply within one's tribe. The murder, rape and torture of a member of any other tribe would be just fine and dandy evolutionarily speaking (baring threats of retribution).


Sure, that happens, and I'm not trying to justify universal morals and whatever else j9b may be trying to assert. Just sayin' that it's part of the evolutionary process for this particular species (homo sapiens)--which is why I disagree with "Evolution has nothing to do with man-made moral considerations."


Fair enough. That was an overstatement. Should have said: "Evolution has little to do with man-made moral considerations."

BBS wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:Pinker talks about this. Apparently when monkeys fight for territory and the groups are relatively evenly matched they sort of just jump around and shout until the group that seems weaker gives up and leaves. But it turns out if a group of moneys find just one or two opposing monkeys, the "kindness" ends. They brutally rip them apart and eat parts of their flesh.
Basically evolution "taught" them that when the groups are relatively evenly matched it's bad strategy to get in a fight. But when you have the clear advantage you should take it and kill those fuckers.

So yeah, some evolutionarily beneficial behaviors match with what we think of as moral, but I think this is largely incidental. i.e. what about slavery?


Good, let's take on slavery. Before slavery, human sacrifice was more profitable; however, at some point various groups could realize the gains of greater labor productivity by enslaving others. Perhaps, this was due to the decreased price of maintaining slaves (e.g. greater ability to grow food).

What does that say of morals? I'd say that morals are largely driven by profit-seeking plans, realization of prices, and those outcomes. Those who have the leisure (from Plato to beyond) would then reflect on the outcomes and try to make them coherent. 'Ethics' back in Greece's day meant "custom." Another side of ethics/moral philosophy was about planning beyond the custom. Later, with perhaps the Renaissance Period, we see this side dominate as they would strive to design a moral system beyond the current outcomes/customs--and this phenomenon might be part of evolution, but I'm not sure.


Well, I guess morals would be driven by profit-seeking plans in the sense that everything we do is driven by profit-seeking plans(i.e. if I didn't expect to get some benefit of some kind out of an action I wouldn't do it in the first place). This doesn't seem like the best explanation of the development of morality. Presumably the slave holder's profit seeking plan was to keep their plantations.

BBS wrote:Does someone sitting down, reflecting, and then writing resemble something of evolution? If not, then the ethics/moral philosophy which is designed by reason and largely devoid of current custom may not be part of evolution... but what could it be?


Kant's writings would be explained by evolution (as in biological evolution) only if some kind of biological shift occurred in the brain that allowed Kant to think about things differently. This is what I was saying to john.

You can, of course, say it's the result of something somewhat similar to biological evolution (i.e. cultural evolution). The difference I was getting at is that if it's biological evolution then I'm stuck. I was born with this brain, I can't do shit about it. If it;s cultural evolution then chugging 6 monsters and scribbling all night might just mean I'll come up with an incredible better moral system.

Lootifer wrote:Herp. Intellectual and Cultural evolution is an analogue to the more commonly referred to species evolution. Be pragmatic for once you twits.

Not even close to what I was saying.

I'd assert that intellectual/cultural evolution is visable in a human-lifespan time scale.

Dont be like PS and view it as black and white BBS; we are evolving towards your own personal-view uptopia. But be warned, if I was you I would personally prepare myself for a pre-libanarchy optimum (i.e. Libertarian Anarchy is kinda poop).

Related to this I believe at this stage we dont have nearly enough data points to determine anything but a theoretical optimum (so far we have a handfull of failed totalitarian systems, a bunch of psuedo-free systems that only serve to give erranous data points - Im looking at you USA, and a few free-ish systems that show, generally, the direction to head in).


See, my problem with this is the somewhat fatalistic "we're evolving towards this". It's funny that this view is somewhat shared between both extreme optimists who think it's inevitable that humanity will reach the singularity in 50 years and extreme pessimists who think that it's inevitable that humanity will have an all-out nuclear war in the next 50 years.

What I'm saying is: we have much more control over our cultural/technological evolution than a rhino has over it's biological evolution. In that sense the analogy is flawed. There isn't some cosmic force pushing us towards one outcome or the other it's just the actions of people. (case in point, biological evolution was not able to eradicate polio, Bill Gates might be able to do it though).
So forget the fatalism and get off the fuckin' sofa cause nothing's written in the stars.
Highest score: 3063; Highest position: 67;
Winner of {World War II tournament, -team 2010 Skilled Diversity, [FuN||Chewy]-[XII] USA};
8-3-7
User avatar
Major Haggis_McMutton
 
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:32 am
Medals: 28
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (3) General Achievement (4)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:31 am

You have a sofa in front of your computer???
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 4659
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby john9blue on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:57 am

real talk: i have this serta executive office chair in front of my computer that was made with the same shit as the mattresses and feels just like a sofa. cost me like $200 but it was totally worth it.
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
(proud member of the Occasionally Wrongly Banned)
User avatar
Captain john9blue
 
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:18 pm
Location: FlutterChi-town
Medals: 14
Standard Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2)
Speed Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (3)

Re: Come ye faithful and ye atheist rabble.

Postby AslanTheKing on Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:06 pm

AslanTheKing wrote:Interesting to read,
every page was entertaining too,

but to make this short,

every human has the right to live on this planet,
if they believe in god or not

if they are good humans or bad humans
if they are good animals or bad animals ,
if they are good plants or bad plants,
( becuse it doesnt matter )

theyre so many religions on this earth that many people get confused and fed up,

there comes this question out of my mind
if u are a bad person who deserves to go to hell
where do you go to hell,

to the christian hell, the islamic hell, the buddhist hell, the tribe hell,
is funny or?
should there not be one god?
why then all this many religions?

like this funny quote: ever<body wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die , lol

asking myself this question , i believe i was around 12
by that time i had consumed all information about every religion

but i realized at the end, religions are not different from each other

and that also bad things happen from people who are strong believers in god
some very fanatic god believers are not always the best people,
and bad things happen from atheists

its always the same question, who are we, and were do we come from

i think religion should be personal, even there churches , mosques, temples and much more

as long people dont get hurt , its okay,

unfortunately the history tells us different ( at least as much we humans can go back )

it all started somewhere some time

and thats the illusion, we forget that even before recording human history was people leaving on this planet, in a brutal way
what did this people belive in ?

maybe nothing, but for sure they where very afraid of things they couldn't answer

and thats us today, things we cant answer we are afraid of

we humans are not more inteligent then the ones before us,( there is a mistake in the word inteligence - just google it )

just look at the architecture, literature, music all made many many years ago

today we talk only about iphone, windows, apple, pixar , mercedes etc.... ( i forgot pornography )

never mind

the question is, does god exist and where is he?

guys, and thats exactly the trap

dont ask, dont wonder, just be sure

open your eyes really, not just read and study,
just open your eyes, dont u see

sad for u, i can see it every day, and i dont look at the iPhone,
i look at the nature, and nature has given me the answer, its all there , but people cant see it anymore, very sad

when i lived in australia i was dreaming of skiing in australia ( but before when iwas living in austria i was dreaming of a sandy beach)

now i live in hamburg, germany and i dont dream of all this anymore, now i only dream that my kids are godloving , and people loving, and animal loving
and nature loving

get it?

that they are loving

and thats what humans have lost
to be loving

everything else isnt important and never was, and that was the message all along

( and besides , our human brain is not programmed to get that far ;)

our brain is programmed to get us only to the next stage, to the stage we have been before
and we are not there yet, more will follow, or could u imagine 20 years ago that u talk to somebody on the phone
where there are not wires attached ?????? ( or technically speaking look at the graphics of the old lucasfilm comp games like maniac mansion...)

( if u would leave this planet for good on a spaceship , what would u leave behind?
a DVD with all our knowledge ?

no, i dont think so , u would leave pyramids build out of solid stone, which lasts more than 5000 years or more
( or something else what will last longer enough than a cd, ore ups stick, lol )

( the problem is , that the humans cant read the information correctly , they will misinterpret it )
( even lets say a dvd can last 100000 years, how could the humans know what to do with it without our technology and electricity
evern its all there - it just goes step by step to get there )

and then we are, asking.... and every information is there

humans have been here before, but one day we will be some other place,
we have to, and everything will start from scratch again ( at least for us humans )

not the universe, and not for god

for us humans for sure, until we start again,and again and again

when u die u will know, its soon
( humanly speaking, since 100 years is nothing , but realy nothing for this universe, but for the humans its a lot 9

biblical numbers stated that one man got 130 years old, and we were wondering, no that cant be true,
now people die with 110 years of age ( not all of course )

soon , we will be getting to that age again,

and then?


what have i been drinking ? give me more of that stuff
I used to roll the daizz
Feel the fear in my enemy´s eyes
Listen as the crowd would sing:

Long live the Army Of Kings !


AOK

show: AOK Rocks
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class AslanTheKing
 
Posts: 1201
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:36 am
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Medals: 37
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3) Trench Warfare Achievement (2)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (2) Bot Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (4) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (1)

PreviousNext

Return to Babble-On Five

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

Login