Isn't Society Weird?

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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:53 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Interesting. A few thoughts:

(1) My question is more to do with why do we still use these things a


Probably because unless something is a dramatic improvement or invention, changing is too much work.


--Andy


I was hoping for a discussion of a revolution with respect to having to work five days in a row. I think that change would be too much work too though.


Would that change maximize profit?
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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:53 pm

TGD, set up an excel spreadsheet explaining your calendar and I'll pass it along to the UN.


--Andy
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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:58 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:TGD, set up an excel spreadsheet explaining your calendar and I'll pass it along to the UN.


--Andy


Thanks, but I wanted to get some consensus from CC denizens first.

BigBallinStalin wrote:Would that change maximize profit?


Maximize profit for whom?
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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:00 pm

thegreekdog wrote:While I acknowledge that a "real change" would be difficult, I do not think it would cause an uprising among the general public; in fact, I would suspect the general public would be in favor of a change in the way we work.


Already on the internet we see markets where producers offer their labor or goods (e.g. http://fiverr.com/). Demand from final* consumers immediately cuts through the intermediaries and straight to the producers. Instead of working 5-day weeks, the demand for your labor could be more profitably organized into various schedules.

Although this kinds of markets are mainly used to supplement one's primary income, humanity has yet to tap into the full potential of the Internet. In regard to markets, the Internet is mainly used to reflect consumer preferences, but the avenues of profitable change for producers has yet to be fully realized.

I expect that you'll see the change from 5-day work weeks into a more profitable "whatever basis" within these more direct cyber markets. 3D printers or their progeny could herald this revolutionary change.


edit: *But then again, the final consumers may just be intermediary consumers who are simply finding more profitable ways to find labor to produce goods for the final consumers. Nonetheless, this could still result in less strict worker schedules.
Last edited by BigBallinStalin on Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:02 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:TGD, set up an excel spreadsheet explaining your calendar and I'll pass it along to the UN.


--Andy


Thanks, but I wanted to get some consensus from CC denizens first.

BigBallinStalin wrote:Would that change maximize profit?


Maximize profit for whom?


Perhaps for producers in cyber markets which have a more direct path toward final consumers.
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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:07 pm

Here's my skepticism on that score: The rise of computers, interwebs, etc. was supposed to make work it easier (and those advances have) and they were supposed to result in better flexibility. I would argue that computers, internet, email, mobile devices, and the like, have made work more time consuming. In the "good old days" when a person left work, he or she left work. In the modern era, work comes with you. It's not uncommon for me to get calls on my mobile phone at midnight from concerned clients or colleagues regarding a particular issue. In the past, the concerned party would have to wait for me to come into the office. It's not uncommon for teachers to get emails from concerned parents who may have just waited until parent/teacher night.

So, will the changing of a work week maximize profits? Don't know.
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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:14 pm

TGD, can we have your cell phone to call you at midnight about concerned posts in the Off Topics?

Moreover, have anyone you ever worked a job where you had "whatever" hours? When I first employed by CC, I essentially had a "whatever" hours job, but as I started to take on more responsibilities, I moved into a set office time because I found I worked more efficiently that way, and I also found I enjoyed knowing when I would be done for the day too. Ha.


--Andy
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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:17 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:TGD, can we have your cell phone to call you at midnight about concerned posts in the Off Topics?

Moreover, have anyone you ever worked a job where you had "whatever" hours? When I first employed by CC, I essentially had a "whatever" hours job, but as I started to take on more responsibilities, I moved into a set office time because I found I worked more efficiently that way, and I also found I enjoyed knowing when I would be done for the day too. Ha.


--Andy


I technically have whenever hours. I also have minimum requirements with respect to total hours, billable hours, and other such statistics. A guy I work with rolls in between 10:30 AM and 11 AM. He also works until 1 AM. He does pretty well, except when someone schedules a meeting for 8 AM.
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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:18 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Here's my skepticism on that score: The rise of computers, interwebs, etc. was supposed to make work it easier (and those advances have) and they were supposed to result in better flexibility. I would argue that computers, internet, email, mobile devices, and the like, have made work more time consuming. In the "good old days" when a person left work, he or she left work. In the modern era, work comes with you. It's not uncommon for me to get calls on my mobile phone at midnight from concerned clients or colleagues regarding a particular issue. In the past, the concerned party would have to wait for me to come into the office. It's not uncommon for teachers to get emails from concerned parents who may have just waited until parent/teacher night.

So, will the changing of a work week maximize profits? Don't know.


Hopefully, your wage already compensates you sufficiently for such calls/emails. If so, then is the complaining justified? Or is it a profitable opportunity for releasing stress and finding sympathy? :P

Of course, there may be the possibility of shaping your environment to your own demands. In some situations, you could create and enforce implicit rules like "not responding to work-emails after work-hours." In a sense, you can control the environment, or maybe you'll get fired. :P

Hmm... need one more... :P There. That's good.
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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:28 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Of course, there may be the possibility of shaping your environment to your own demands. In some situations, you could create and enforce implicit rules like "not responding to work-emails after work-hours." In a sense, you can control the environment, or maybe you'll get fired. :P

These types of rules I usually live by, otherwise I'll spend too much outside of work time thinking about work.

Would a segmented work week really be needed across the board? Or would it be more ad-hoc? I remember when I was younger and had to work weekends, my social life took a hit since I'd have two days off during the week, but most everyone I knew was working. :(


--Andy
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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:30 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Hopefully, your wage already compensates you sufficiently for such calls/emails. If so, then is the complaining justified? Or is it a profitable opportunity for releasing stress and finding sympathy?


Adjusted for inflation, my hourly wage compared to what my hourly wage would have been 20 years ago before modern technology... no, it's not adequate compensation. Imagine this disparity:

Employee A works from 8 AM to 8 PM, Monday through Friday without taking a break for lunch. That's 60 hours. He or she is paid $100.

Employee B works from 8 AM to 8 PM, Monday through Friday without taking a break for lunch. That's 60 hours. He or she is paid $100. He or she is also expected to respond to messages from colleagues or clients any time from 8 PM to 8 AM on weekdays and any time of day on weekends within 24 hours of receiving the message.

Does Employee B have the right to complain about his or her wage? Does it matter whether Employee A worked for the same company 20 years ago?

BigBallinStalin wrote:Of course, there may be the possibility of shaping your environment to your own demands. In some situations, you could create and enforce implicit rules like "not responding to work-emails after work-hours." In a sense, you can control the environment, or maybe you'll get fired.


That's a better response. Yes, by responding to such messages at off-hours, I receive better opportunities to advance my career than other, similarly situated people.
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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:32 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Of course, there may be the possibility of shaping your environment to your own demands. In some situations, you could create and enforce implicit rules like "not responding to work-emails after work-hours." In a sense, you can control the environment, or maybe you'll get fired. :P

These types of rules I usually live by, otherwise I'll spend too much outside of work time thinking about work.

Would a segmented work week really be needed across the board? Or would it be more ad-hoc? I remember when I was younger and had to work weekends, my social life took a hit since I'd have two days off during the week, but most everyone I knew was working. :(


--Andy


The summer between college and law school I worked two hourly jobs that did not offer the same flexibility as my current employment. I worked at an ice cream joint from 9:30 AM to 4:30 PM and then worked at a supermarket from 7:00 PM to midnight. My social life took a huge hit, mostly because my work schedule was not flexible.
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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:32 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Of course, there may be the possibility of shaping your environment to your own demands. In some situations, you could create and enforce implicit rules like "not responding to work-emails after work-hours." In a sense, you can control the environment, or maybe you'll get fired. :P

These types of rules I usually live by, otherwise I'll spend too much outside of work time thinking about work.

Would a segmented work week really be needed across the board? Or would it be more ad-hoc? I remember when I was younger and had to work weekends, my social life took a hit since I'd have two days off during the week, but most everyone I knew was working. :(


--Andy


It would definitely be more toward the ad-hoc side of the spectrum--in general. The position would be aligned according to whichever maximizes profit--given that (1) people are choosing the correct means for their ends, and (2) they're actually cognizant and capable of realizing that profit.


Working weekends? C'est la trade-off.
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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:42 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Hopefully, your wage already compensates you sufficiently for such calls/emails. If so, then is the complaining justified? Or is it a profitable opportunity for releasing stress and finding sympathy?


Adjusted for inflation, my hourly wage compared to what my hourly wage would have been 20 years ago before modern technology... no, it's not adequate compensation. Imagine this disparity:

Employee A works from 8 AM to 8 PM, Monday through Friday without taking a break for lunch. That's 60 hours. He or she is paid $100.

Employee B works from 8 AM to 8 PM, Monday through Friday without taking a break for lunch. That's 60 hours. He or she is paid $100. He or she is also expected to respond to messages from colleagues or clients any time from 8 PM to 8 AM on weekdays and any time of day on weekends within 24 hours of receiving the message.

Does Employee B have the right to complain about his or her wage? Does it matter whether Employee A worked for the same company 20 years ago?


It depends on your present discounted value of the current wage. Perhaps, the current wage is justified by the prospect of higher future earnings (partnership at the firm, or having the requisite knowledge to start your own firm). If that expectation is missing, then perhaps it's time to re-evaluate your opportunity cost (i.e total value of a new job + transaction costs, search costs, risk, uncertainty, blah blah blah).

thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Of course, there may be the possibility of shaping your environment to your own demands. In some situations, you could create and enforce implicit rules like "not responding to work-emails after work-hours." In a sense, you can control the environment, or maybe you'll get fired.


That's a better response. Yes, by responding to such messages at off-hours, I receive better opportunities to advance my career than other, similarly situated people.


I hope so because it reflects your greater productivity, but I was also point out that perhaps you get so many emails because you supply that demand. Raise the price, emails decrease, and maybe--maybe--this would hardly affect others' perception of your productivity.
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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:24 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:I hope so because it reflects your greater productivity, but I was also point out that perhaps you get so many emails because you supply that demand. Raise the price, emails decrease, and maybe--maybe--this would hardly affect others' perception of your productivity.


A colleague I respect recommended something like this. She said that I should not be as available because I didn't need to be (as I've already proven my personal brand to be high). My response was that part of my personal brand was the willingness and ability to respond and be productive at odd hours.

This is mostly grousing as I enjoy my job... I just don't enjoy the hours.
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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:31 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:I hope so because it reflects your greater productivity, but I was also point out that perhaps you get so many emails because you supply that demand. Raise the price, emails decrease, and maybe--maybe--this would hardly affect others' perception of your productivity.


A colleague I respect recommended something like this. She said that I should not be as available because I didn't need to be (as I've already proven my personal brand to be high). My response was that part of my personal brand was the willingness and ability to respond and be productive at odd hours.

This is mostly grousing as I enjoy my job... I just don't enjoy the hours.


TGD, the solution has been infront of us all the time. Outsource the late email answering aspect of your job. We can turn your job into an MMORPG character, where people from around the world power-level so the character is effectively on and playing 24 hours a days.

Bonus, this gives you more time to watch cat videos, like described in the linked to topic's article.

Problem solved. Please make all checks payable to me in the form of Sax Bucks.


--Andy
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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:34 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:I hope so because it reflects your greater productivity, but I was also point out that perhaps you get so many emails because you supply that demand. Raise the price, emails decrease, and maybe--maybe--this would hardly affect others' perception of your productivity.


A colleague I respect recommended something like this. She said that I should not be as available because I didn't need to be (as I've already proven my personal brand to be high). My response was that part of my personal brand was the willingness and ability to respond and be productive at odd hours.

This is mostly grousing as I enjoy my job... I just don't enjoy the hours.


TGD, the solution has been infront of us all the time. Outsource the late email answering aspect of your job. We can turn your job into an MMORPG character, where people from around the world power-level so the character is effectively on and playing 24 hours a days.

Bonus, this gives you more time to watch cat videos, like described in the linked to topic's article.

Problem solved. Please make all checks payable to me in the form of Sax Bucks.


--Andy


Done.

Here are 15 Saxrupees for your effort.
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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby ManBungalow on Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:40 pm

thegreekdog wrote:As I trudged into the elevator on my way to the office today, I contemplated why I was expected to work Monday through Friday?

And then I contemplated why there were Mondays and Fridays in the first place? Who determined that a week should be seven days and why?

There's an xkcd about just that.

EDIT:
here it is
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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:42 pm

I think my grandfather once told me retirement is like Saturday forever.


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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:51 pm

ManBungalow wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:As I trudged into the elevator on my way to the office today, I contemplated why I was expected to work Monday through Friday?

And then I contemplated why there were Mondays and Fridays in the first place? Who determined that a week should be seven days and why?

There's an xkcd about just that.

EDIT:
here it is
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Many years ago when my father and I went up to pick my brother up at college in New England, we talked about this the entire drive home to Pennsylvania (about the "fakeness" of society). It was a good discussion.
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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby 2dimes on Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:18 pm

Ten hour clock.

The work week was six days ala crazy Hebrews and bible.
Translators of the, New King James Version (NKJV) wrote:Genesis 1

The History of Creation

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was[a] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.” 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[b] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


Then the industrial revolution happened and we couldn't shut down the factories so you lazy no good-nics. could lay about/go to church etc.

Eventually the Lazy buggers formed Unions got all greedy and wanted two days off. They were cut off in North America before they got all French about it taking 3 days off.
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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:34 pm

This thread reminds me of cgpgrey's video on daylight savings.

If you're not familiar with cgpgrey's stuff, give it a shot, it's more entertaining than it sounds (especially the 2nd half)

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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby notyou2 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:55 pm

thegreekdog wrote:As I trudged into the elevator on my way to the office today, I contemplated why I was expected to work Monday through Friday?

And then I contemplated why there were Mondays and Fridays in the first place? Who determined that a week should be seven days and why?

And then I thought about who determined that a day is 24 hours and why?

And just when I started thinking about why someone decided on the amount of minutes in an hour, I got to my floor?

Other than thoughts about my elevator being slow (or my mind being extremely, lightning fast thanks to my public education), do you guys think of stuff like this?

.
Is someone hung over from Super Sunday and doesn't want to work?

To answer your question, I think about these things all the time. Especially on Mondays after an overly indulgent weekend.
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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:58 pm

notyou2 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:As I trudged into the elevator on my way to the office today, I contemplated why I was expected to work Monday through Friday?

And then I contemplated why there were Mondays and Fridays in the first place? Who determined that a week should be seven days and why?

And then I thought about who determined that a day is 24 hours and why?

And just when I started thinking about why someone decided on the amount of minutes in an hour, I got to my floor?

Other than thoughts about my elevator being slow (or my mind being extremely, lightning fast thanks to my public education), do you guys think of stuff like this?

.
Is someone hung over from Super Sunday and doesn't want to work?

To answer your question, I think about these things all the time. Especially on Mondays after an overly indulgent weekend.


It's usually after weekends where I have to work more than usual (like this past weekend).
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Re: Isn't Society Weird?

Postby notyou2 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:24 pm

So Mondays just plain suck.
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