Organizational Responsibility

[Timminz]

How many people within the leadership of an organization have to sexually abuse children (or protect those who do, from prosecution) before supporting that organization is seen as condoning the abuse, in some way?

[tzor]

Why have a war in the first place? An illegal war at that, one not approved or declared by Congress.

I always thought the notion of an "illegal" war was kind of funny. Whether or not the war was "illegal" is a matter for debate. (You might argue that the whole war powers act is unconstitutional if you want to go the full constitutional route.) Consider that Congress has both the power of the purse strings and the power of impeachment, I find that the "meh" attitude of congress no reason to hold the president guilty of not following the constitution.

[thegreekdog]

I've obviously touched a nerve, and I'm sorry for that. I'm honestly just trying to understand your perspective.

I can't deny that the opinions that some people have of Catholic parishoners with respect to the child abuse cover up annoys me. I guess my question (which I probably didn't make clear in the last post) is that I do not understand the difference you make between Catholic parishoners and other members of other organizations. Why is the Catholic parishoner's only acceptable choice to leave the Catholic church? I'm not suggesting that the alternative is to accept and condone the cover-up and defense of alleged child abusers; after all, these abuses happened to parishoners and/or their children. I'm suggesting there are other alternatives that can be pursued. Apparently many others in the forum don't agree and I'm trying to figure out why they don't agree.

From my perspective leaving the Catholic Church would be akin to leaving my family or my country (I guess, although I'm not really a nationalist kind of guy)... perhaps leaving my wife would be an apt description as well. For me, it would be incredibly painful and difficult. I'm not sure I can explain it well enough for you to understand.

How many people within the leadership of an organization have to sexually abuse children (or protect those who do, from prosecution) before supporting that organization is seen as condoning the abuse, in some way?

I'm not sure I agree with your premise that the organization is currently condoning the abuse.

In 2002, the US Catholic Church established various guidelines around the issue, which, among other things, requires that when an allegation arises, the diocese is required to alert the authorities, conduct an investigation, and remove the accused priest from duty. Is there something else you would recommend be done?

The Vatican has also created guidelines, although I'm not as familiar with them.

Sorry, I didn't answer your question. I don't know what my answer is. Right now, US bishops have reported receiving allegations of abuse by 6,115 priests between 1950 and 2011 (5.6% of the 109,694 priests active in that time period).

[thegreekdog]

Why have a war in the first place? An illegal war at that, one not approved or declared by Congress.

I always thought the notion of an "illegal" war was kind of funny. Whether or not the war was "illegal" is a matter for debate. (You might argue that the whole war powers act is unconstitutional if you want to go the full constitutional route.) Consider that Congress has both the power of the purse strings and the power of impeachment, I find that the "meh" attitude of congress no reason to hold the president guilty of not following the constitution.

I find the "meh" attitude of Congress to be as criminal as the president's activities. I probably should not have used the "illegal war" statement.

[Lootifer]

@ OP: Pretty much determined by how much power the relevant stakeholders wield. Pure democracy where each action or policy is taken to the vote: Population is responsible; Dictatorship where leaders make the decisions: Leaders are responsible.

The Church is pretty much exclusively the latter, where as US government is in a grey area somewhere between the two.

Sorry if this has already been said, coming into the thread late.

[PLAYER57832]

How many people within the leadership of an organization have to sexually abuse children (or protect those who do, from prosecution) before supporting that organization is seen as condoning the abuse, in some way?

Before even answering, you have to stop and remember just how far and how quickly thinking on these issues have changed.
Society went from thinking this was a rare crime found only in dark, dirty corners by men who were obviously "scummy" to being so hyper-ready to see victims (and still often the wrong types of people) that a lot of people were falsely accused.

Some of the early cases that brought this more to peoples minds -- the McMartin preschool case is one that I can recall by name, but there were several about that same time (within a few years of that case) that made huge headlines, resulted in a lot of education and progress to the sysystem in many ways.. but ironically also wound up being false charges. THAT is the framework under which these priests were protected. NOTE.. I am not saying that this excuses the actions, BUT I am saying that folks have a strong tendency to jump to conclusions when the issue is sexual abuse of kids. Caution IS warranted.

ALSO, a lot of attitudes have changed about how to treat these individuals. We went from "string them up.. period" to "let's find the problem and fix it, so the person can return to society". Only now are we realzing that something else might be the answer -- that we probably do need to lock these folks up for a very long time, if not forever.

Anyway, my point is that Priests and Bishops are human and make mistakes. They are more insulated from many realities, including particularly matters of sex. Given all the hoopla and mixed messages "out there" up until very, very recently, it would be easy for them to think that all they had to do was just put priests into a new venue or even to essentially disbelieve the accusations. Note, now, that would not be the case. I cannot see any reasonable person taking those same actions today. However, judging the past actions in that frame is just wrong. You have to judge based on what was happening at the time.

So, that is one part.

The second part is that a church is not just "an organization". Nor is it limited by the people involved in it, even at a leadership level. Church is about God. I won't get into Roman Catholic theology much because I am not Roman Catholic and no doubt will state some things wrong, but essentially, the structure of the church and how it operates is believed to be set forth by God. People within the church can and do fail.. many times, but the church itself is greater than that, is beyond the failings of any individual.


Now.. if you are talking scouts... we have a different issue. However, in that case I have not seen an overall pervasive sense of permissiveness. Instead, we have seen a few aberrations-- terrible, with consequences, but aberrations, not "the norm".

In fac, in both cases, the incidents were relatively few compared to the overall numbers of priests/leaders. Too many, even one is too many, but the fact is that if you have a few thousand of any individuals in anything, a few will be terrible, terrible individuals. You cannot judge an organization by a few bad leaders.

[BigBallinStalin]

What can members of these organizations do? Well, ideally they could leave the organization. Stop being affiliated with them. Stop giving them money.

That is what Catholics should be doing.

The issues associated with leaving the Church would not be advisable for most Catholics, in my opinion. I believe (the key word I suppose) that I need to be associated with the Church, a member of that organization, and a parishoner. So let's say that leaving would provide more pain than continuing as a member.

I don't understand this at all, because I have never felt anything similar. To me, there is nothing that I need to do so badly that I would support child molestation in order to keep doing it.

I don't mean that to be a slight upon you personally (or any others who feel the same way), I just honestly have no basis for comparison. Is it because you'd be shunned by friends and family?

I guess that means your opinion is that my participation at mass as a parishoner means I support (financially, morally, and otherwise) child molestation. I can't really wrap my mind around that and perhaps that's where the discussion should go. It is not really a personal attack, I suppose, because you really don't have a basis for comparison. But I can maybe help with that.

There are numerous instances in history and right now where people directly or indirectly financially (or otherwise) supported immoral acts. I've noted only one other above. There does not seem to be the same outrage or the same accusations of supporting some horrible act. In some instances, there are even defenses of these positions.

For example, you will rarely hear or see a reasonable individual, such as yourself, say or type something like that "To me, there is nothing that I need to do so badly that I would support child molestation [by going to Penn State University] or murder of innocent civilians [by voting for either presidential candidate] or torture [by voting for either presidential candidate]."

TGD, when you donate to your local church, what percent goes to the Vatican?

[thegreekdog]

What can members of these organizations do? Well, ideally they could leave the organization. Stop being affiliated with them. Stop giving them money.

That is what Catholics should be doing.

The issues associated with leaving the Church would not be advisable for most Catholics, in my opinion. I believe (the key word I suppose) that I need to be associated with the Church, a member of that organization, and a parishoner. So let's say that leaving would provide more pain than continuing as a member.

I don't understand this at all, because I have never felt anything similar. To me, there is nothing that I need to do so badly that I would support child molestation in order to keep doing it.

I don't mean that to be a slight upon you personally (or any others who feel the same way), I just honestly have no basis for comparison. Is it because you'd be shunned by friends and family?

I guess that means your opinion is that my participation at mass as a parishoner means I support (financially, morally, and otherwise) child molestation. I can't really wrap my mind around that and perhaps that's where the discussion should go. It is not really a personal attack, I suppose, because you really don't have a basis for comparison. But I can maybe help with that.

There are numerous instances in history and right now where people directly or indirectly financially (or otherwise) supported immoral acts. I've noted only one other above. There does not seem to be the same outrage or the same accusations of supporting some horrible act. In some instances, there are even defenses of these positions.

For example, you will rarely hear or see a reasonable individual, such as yourself, say or type something like that "To me, there is nothing that I need to do so badly that I would support child molestation [by going to Penn State University] or murder of innocent civilians [by voting for either presidential candidate] or torture [by voting for either presidential candidate]."

TGD, when you donate to your local church, what percent goes to the Vatican?

No idea. According to latest diocesen data, 0%. There are special collections occasionally which will provide money to the Vatican. Think of my church as a third or fourth tier subsidiary of the Vatican holding company. We may occasionally pay a dividend to our immediate corporate shareholder (who may then pay to its immediate corporate shareholder after paying expenses, and so forth). My shareholder may send my dividend to a brother-sister parish (if that parish is poorer). Many of the Philadelphia parishes (in the city) are quite poor.

Anyway, it's a small percent, if any.

[BigBallinStalin]

So, let's assume some small amount of your donation goes to the Vatican.

Would you say that the Vatican is responsible--to some degree--for the scandal?

[thegreekdog]

So, let's assume some small amount of your donation goes to the Vatican.

Would you say that the Vatican is responsible--to some degree--for the scandal?

Yes.

[warmonger1981]

Basic personal responsibility. If you didn't report it you are just as guilty as being there. If the organization as a whole knew guilty as well. Case closed. Next.

[thegreekdog]

Basic personal responsibility. If you didn't report it you are just as guilty as being there. If the organization as a whole knew guilty as well. Case closed. Next.

That's not really the question.

[Timminz]

I've obviously touched a nerve, and I'm sorry for that. I'm honestly just trying to understand your perspective.

I can't deny that the opinions that some people have of Catholic parishoners with respect to the child abuse cover up annoys me. I guess my question (which I probably didn't make clear in the last post) is that I do not understand the difference you make between Catholic parishoners and other members of other organizations. Why is the Catholic parishoner's only acceptable choice to leave the Catholic church? I'm not suggesting that the alternative is to accept and condone the cover-up and defense of alleged child abusers; after all, these abuses happened to parishoners and/or their children. I'm suggesting there are other alternatives that can be pursued. Apparently many others in the forum don't agree and I'm trying to figure out why they don't agree.

I guess I just assumed that a parishoner had less sway over the Catholic church (practically nil) than an American citizen has over their government (very slightly more than nil). Maybe I'm wrong.

From my perspective leaving the Catholic Church would be akin to leaving my family or my country (I guess, although I'm not really a nationalist kind of guy)... perhaps leaving my wife would be an apt description as well. For me, it would be incredibly painful and difficult. I'm not sure I can explain it well enough for you to understand.

I understand what you're saying, but I think you're right: I'll never fully understand that kind of attachment to any organization.

How many people within the leadership of an organization have to sexually abuse children (or protect those who do, from prosecution) before supporting that organization is seen as condoning the abuse, in some way?

I'm not sure I agree with your premise that the organization is currently condoning the abuse.

The premise is that there are many people within leadership positions of the organization who have been implicated in the abuse, and even more who have protected the perpetrators of that abuse. There's nothing to disagree with, it's true.

Edited for terrible formatting.

[thegreekdog]

The premise is that there are many people within leadership positions of the organization who have been implicated in the abuse, and even more who have protected the perpetrators of that abuse. There's nothing to disagree with, it's true.

Right. But you've offered two choices: continue with the organization and therefore condone child abuse and the protection of child abusers or leave the organization. I don't think these are the two choices. The organization is attempting to impose guidelines that it should have imposed well before 2006. These guidelines are probably a direct response to the outcries of parishoners (and not external pressures). So, I guess there is a third choice - continue with the organization and attempt to fix the problem. Do you not agree that there is a third choice? Can one be a Catholic parishoner and not condone child abuse and the protection of child abusers by being a member of the organization?

Let me use another example - There's probably more child abuse (ad protection of child abusers) occurring in public schools than in the Catholic Church. And that doesn't make what the Catholic Church is doing right, but there is not the same hue and cry from the general public about public school abuse. I'm trying to understand why the Catholic Church is different. Why are Catholic Church parishoners maligned for staying with the organization and attempting to change it when public school teachers, administrators and the general public not criticized for the same thing?

[warmonger1981]

TGD. If you vote for a person who is ok with drone attacks then you might as well be the one pulling the trigger as you are OK with killing people.As for the Catholic Church goes if you continue to support through attendance or offerings you are guilty as well since that person continues to support their actions. I have a problem with labels. If you declare yourself to be lets say a republican or democrats you are then restricted to the leaders views. I believe in a God and don't associate myself to any particular sect.
Same goes for political views. Thats why I done vote since I cannot stand shoulder to shoulder with a person or organization.